schoolgirl who joined IS but wants to come home.

[kukushkin88]

This is a case we absolutely want to be heard.

The government is wanting to remove the citizenship of someone born here. Even if there was a video of her beheading someone I'd want this case to be heard. The only way these arguments are going to be heard is if she has legal representation. As this case could set precedent, it's important the best case is made for her. Regardless of your opinion of this girl, this is a very important case

Legal aid is under attack by the gutter press and it's sad to see.

When the state is trying to impose an action on you, the right to basic competent legal defence should be cherished. The fee is a standard fee and when you see headline figures of 100k you have to remember that does not go to the accused. It is paid directly to the legal team. Vat is applicable, as is income tax and national insurance. The actual cost to the tax payer is much less than the reported figure

Yep, all of this.

Increasingly it seems policy is driven by what will garner the approval of the gutter press. I’m pretty sure I’ve mentioned before, we are encouraged to apply what’s often termed ‘The Daily Mail test’ to aspects of our decision making, it’s shameful.

[MANTIS01]

Loads of folk vilifying Michael Jacko and not playing his music

When did he get a fair trial

I guess his chances of a fair trial were mainly compromised by him buying the witnesses.

I guess Begum’s chances of a fair trial were mainly comprised by her flying to Syria to join ISIS

[kukushkin88]

Loads of folk vilifying Michael Jacko and not playing his music

When did he get a fair trial

I guess his chances of a fair trial were mainly compromised by him buying the witnesses.

I guess Begum’s chances of a fair trial were mainly comprised by her flying to Syria to join ISIS

Perhaps they were but they shouldn’t be and wouldn’t be, if it wasn’t for our government desperately pandering to The Daily Mail brigade.

Your crime should have no bearing on your right to a fair trial, this is so simple, it seems amazing that it actually needs to be written down.

[kukushkin88]

Our soldiers shoot/bomb loads of folk dead without a fair trial.

Why do we decide these victims don’t deserve a fair trial

I do love this post. It’s like Noam Chomsky briefly hacked your account.

[tikay]

On the one hand we have evidence that the girl flew off to Syria to join ISIS and now sources confirm she was an active member, carrying arms and sewing suicide vests. It is now going to be a criminal offence to simply take the first action of travelling to Syria.

On the other hand we have people saying she hasn't been convicted in a court of law and speculating it's obviously just the press trying to add fuel to the story.

So it's kinda reasonable to pass opinion in the negative imo.

Folk get vilified every day who haven't been convicted of crimes in a court of law. A lot of those folk haven't flown to Syria to join ISIS.

sources confirm


An unusually thin defence from the learned MANTIS.

"sources" come in all shapes & sizes, & we should rightly disregard many of them.

"sources" say man did not really land on the moon, & that the CIA were behind 9/11.

The only people who believed that nonsense were those for whom it suited their narrative.

[tikay]

Otherwise, who decides who gets a fair trial?

This is the clincher for me. It's really easy to say people at the far end should have their citizenship revoked, and that they have forfeited rights like the right to legal aid, but where do we draw the line and who decides? The idea of someone just deciding another person isn't worthy of the same rights as the rest of us should be a chilling one, and it frightens me how happy some people are when they see other's rights being taken. I'd think it much better to avoid drawing that line in the first place, to protect our own rights as much as anyone else's.

Yeah, I get that , but some are cut and dry and a waste of all our money. Intent should overall everything when terrorism is the motive.

So where do we draw the line and who decides?

In terms of the cost, it will be pennies each, we should happily take the hit to preserve the most fundamental rule that our system of justice is founded on.

It’s still crazy how disproportionately worried about terrorists you are.

No, not pennies, one thousandths of pennies.

The cost is not relevant to the debate, its simply a straw to be grasped.

[tikay]

As a matter of interest, if she goes to trial by Jury in the UK, it will be quite a Jury Selection process, given how many just want to see her punished before we even know the true facts. Except of course "sources". 

[Longines]

Good point Mr T but I'm not sure it will be a jury trial per se, I'd assumed it would be an immigration tribunal, judicial review or similar.

[tikay]

Good point Mr T but I'm not sure it will be a jury trial per se, I'd assumed it would be an immigration tribunal, judicial review or similar.

I'm not clear in my mind why that would be, but I'm sure you are right.

And perhaps she is more likely to get a fair hearing that way going by the recent history of he so-called "Great British Public". 

[BigAdz]

Otherwise, who decides who gets a fair trial?

This is the clincher for me. It's really easy to say people at the far end should have their citizenship revoked, and that they have forfeited rights like the right to legal aid, but where do we draw the line and who decides? The idea of someone just deciding another person isn't worthy of the same rights as the rest of us should be a chilling one, and it frightens me how happy some people are when they see other's rights being taken. I'd think it much better to avoid drawing that line in the first place, to protect our own rights as much as anyone else's.

Yeah, I get that , but some are cut and dry and a waste of all our money. Intent should overall everything when terrorism is the motive.

So where do we draw the line and who decides?

In terms of the cost, it will be pennies each, we should happily take the hit to preserve the most fundamental rule that our system of justice is founded on.

It’s still crazy how disproportionately worried about terrorists you are.

I travel most weeks for my job. BA Gold Member etc, however I dont ever think about getting blown up etc. However, it doesn't stop me thinking of the people that HAVE been affected and potentially will in the future. They have no control over their fate, unlike many in car accidents, drug abuse etc.

Your blase writing off of how I shoudn't worry about this is quite astounding. Do you have sympathies with these people yourself perhaps?

I am happy to see legal aid granted to those who have a case that has elements of doubt about it. This is a cut and dry case, unworthy of even a penny of our money. The girl went, has admitted she went etc etc. No case. She wanted to help terrorists. If there was any doubt, fine. But in this case there isn't. Dont waste mine/yours/our money, when we have people dying because of funding being wasted on shit like this.

[tikay]

^^^^

The big doubt, Mr Adz, is her age.

[BigAdz]

^^^^

The big doubt, Mr Adz, is her age.

Get ya. However in all her TV interviews, I'm not seeing much contrition from her.

If I go out with intent to hurt, murder someone, whilst I might try to get all the help I can. The reality is, I enter this sequence of events knowing I deserve none.

Cash starved NHS, or give some bad people a second chance they don't deserve? Where should the money go TK?

[tikay]

^^^^

The big doubt, Mr Adz, is her age.

Get ya. However in all her TV interviews, I'm not seeing much contrition from her.

If I go out with intent to hurt, murder someone, whilst I might try to get all the help I can. The reality is, I enter this sequence of events knowing I deserve none.

Cash starved NHS, or give some bad people a second chance they don't deserve? Where should the money go TK?

That's not a relevant question Adz, that's a red top headline.

The "cash-starved" NHS needs billions, a new Hossie alone, forgetting the carrying cost, staff etc comes in at over a billion. The cost of Legal Aid in this case would be 6 figures tops, which, though I've not done the math, is about a quillionth of a billion. 

[BigAdz]

^^^^

The big doubt, Mr Adz, is her age.

Get ya. However in all her TV interviews, I'm not seeing much contrition from her.

If I go out with intent to hurt, murder someone, whilst I might try to get all the help I can. The reality is, I enter this sequence of events knowing I deserve none.

Cash starved NHS, or give some bad people a second chance they don't deserve? Where should the money go TK?

That's not a relevant question Adz, that's a red top headline.

The "cash-starved" NHS needs billions, a new Hossie alone, forgetting the carrying cost, staff etc comes in at over a billion. The cost of Legal Aid in this case would be 6 figures tops, which, though I've not done the math, is about a quillionth of a billion. 

But I'm tagged as a "red top" contributor, so what do you expect?!

You are looking at the detail too much of this one individual.

How many of these ex terrorists decide to come back having seen we have given this girl the green light? How much does it cost us then? Probably will run upwards of a hospital or two perhaps

[tikay]

^^^^

The big doubt, Mr Adz, is her age.

Get ya. However in all her TV interviews, I'm not seeing much contrition from her.

If I go out with intent to hurt, murder someone, whilst I might try to get all the help I can. The reality is, I enter this sequence of events knowing I deserve none.

Cash starved NHS, or give some bad people a second chance they don't deserve? Where should the money go TK?

That's not a relevant question Adz, that's a red top headline.

The "cash-starved" NHS needs billions, a new Hossie alone, forgetting the carrying cost, staff etc comes in at over a billion. The cost of Legal Aid in this case would be 6 figures tops, which, though I've not done the math, is about a quillionth of a billion. 

But I'm tagged as a "red top" contributor, so what do you expect?!

You are looking at the detail too much of this one individual.

How many of these ex terrorists decide to come back having seen we have given this girl the green light? How much does it cost us then? Probably will run upwards of a hospital or two perhaps

Yup, I am looking at this one individual.

One day that individual might be you or me.

And imagine if it was, & someone like MANTIS was the chap charged with making the decision?

There's your Armageddon outcome.