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Author Topic: schoolgirl who joined IS but wants to come home.  (Read 10965 times)
Jon MW
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« Reply #450 on: April 17, 2019, 09:55:02 PM »

Does Treason still exist?  If so surely it’s a slam dunk.  Have the trial to keep the lefties happy and get the noose out?

Yes it's a slam dunk if you can provide evidence that she actively tried to injure the Queen or she was at war with the UK or she was helping an invasion force of the UK.

The closest of these is war - but terrorists aren't soldiers, they're not in an army and they're not in a war (even if that's how they would like to be seen).

She’s joined an organisation at war with the UK.  Done.  The definition of War is antiquated.  This is as near as it gets.

The only definition that counts is the legal definition.

Also you might think it's antiquated but there's a reason why it's like it is.

There are wider issues as to why some states of war will be regarded as a "conflict" rather than a war - but in this context the important principles are that you don't say that terrorists are at war with you because it gives them a much more official status than you (for all definitions of you) want to give them.

If you are at war with a country it means - for a start you're officially recognising ISIS as a country, and we don't want that; but also if you are at war with them you have to follow the law and rules that govern it - and we definitely don't want that.
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Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

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MANTIS01
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« Reply #451 on: April 17, 2019, 09:56:06 PM »

If we are involved in a "war" with terror and ISIS are involved in "jihad".

They arm themselves and attack us.

How is it not a war, how are they not soldiers?

We are still thinking in traditional terms to solve a modern phenomenon (imo)
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« Reply #452 on: April 17, 2019, 09:58:15 PM »

Does Treason still exist?  If so surely it’s a slam dunk.  Have the trial to keep the lefties happy and get the noose out?

It really is an embarrassing post.

This seems to be your new strap line.

Who is embarrassed? I guess it must be you reading it, because I have yet to be embarrassed, neither, I suspect is Dung, or anyone else you have said had made an embarrassing post.

If you are this easily embarrassed, perhaps internet forums aren't the place for you KKK.
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Jon MW
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« Reply #453 on: April 17, 2019, 09:59:42 PM »

If we are involved in a "war" with terror and ISIS are involved in "jihad".

They arm themselves and attack us.

How is it not a war, how are they not soldiers?

We are still thinking in traditional terms to solve a modern phenomenon (imo)

I'm pretty sure we've also had a war on waste before - I don't think we need to prosecute any plastic bags for treason though.

The people who have used these terms are engaging in PR.
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Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

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« Reply #454 on: April 17, 2019, 10:01:48 PM »

Does Treason still exist?  If so surely it’s a slam dunk.  Have the trial to keep the lefties happy and get the noose out?

It really is an embarrassing post.

This seems to be your new strap line.

Who is embarrassed? I guess it must be you reading it, because I have yet to be embarrassed, neither, I suspect is Dung, or anyone else you have said had made an embarrassing post.

If you are this easily embarrassed, perhaps internet forums aren't the place for you KKK.

Look how many things I’ve written today. Twice people wrote things so wildly ridiculous, that I felt they should be embarrassed. It’s a tiny fraction of what I wrote, hardly a strap line.
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #455 on: April 17, 2019, 10:09:17 PM »

If we are involved in a "war" with terror and ISIS are involved in "jihad".

They arm themselves and attack us.

How is it not a war, how are they not soldiers?

We are still thinking in traditional terms to solve a modern phenomenon (imo)

I'm pretty sure we've also had a war on waste before - I don't think we need to prosecute any plastic bags for treason though.

The people who have used these terms are engaging in PR.

Do plastic bags blow up our children on their way to school?

Why don’t we change the principle to guilty until proven innocent for the 0.0001% who fly off to join our enemies?

Continuing to quote legalities isn’t delivering solutions mate
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Jon MW
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« Reply #456 on: April 17, 2019, 10:14:32 PM »

If we are involved in a "war" with terror and ISIS are involved in "jihad".

They arm themselves and attack us.

How is it not a war, how are they not soldiers?

We are still thinking in traditional terms to solve a modern phenomenon (imo)

I'm pretty sure we've also had a war on waste before - I don't think we need to prosecute any plastic bags for treason though.

The people who have used these terms are engaging in PR.

Do plastic bags blow up our children on their way to school?

Why don’t we change the principle to guilty until proven innocent for the 0.0001% who fly off to join our enemies?

Continuing to quote legalities isn’t delivering solutions mate

Weirdly enough plenty of people seem to think that legalities and the law are the solution.

Agreed - just allowing the mob to decide is also a solution; but it has it's drawbacks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching
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Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

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« Reply #457 on: April 17, 2019, 10:45:41 PM »

Does Treason still exist?  If so surely it’s a slam dunk.  Have the trial to keep the lefties happy and get the noose out?

Yes it's a slam dunk if you can provide evidence that she actively tried to injure the Queen or she was at war with the UK or she was helping an invasion force of the UK.

The closest of these is war - but terrorists aren't soldiers, they're not in an army and they're not in a war (even if that's how they would like to be seen).

She’s joined an organisation at war with the UK.  Done.  The definition of War is antiquated.  This is as near as it gets.

The only definition that counts is the legal definition.

Also you might think it's antiquated but there's a reason why it's like it is.

There are wider issues as to why some states of war will be regarded as a "conflict" rather than a war - but in this context the important principles are that you don't say that terrorists are at war with you because it gives them a much more official status than you (for all definitions of you) want to give them.

If you are at war with a country it means - for a start you're officially recognising ISIS as a country, and we don't want that; but also if you are at war with them you have to follow the law and rules that govern it - and we definitely don't want that.

Legal definition of War is “something waged by States or State like entities through armed forces”.  Isn’t Islamic State a “State like entity”?
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Jon MW
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« Reply #458 on: April 17, 2019, 10:53:56 PM »

Does Treason still exist?  If so surely it’s a slam dunk.  Have the trial to keep the lefties happy and get the noose out?

Yes it's a slam dunk if you can provide evidence that she actively tried to injure the Queen or she was at war with the UK or she was helping an invasion force of the UK.

The closest of these is war - but terrorists aren't soldiers, they're not in an army and they're not in a war (even if that's how they would like to be seen).

She’s joined an organisation at war with the UK.  Done.  The definition of War is antiquated.  This is as near as it gets.

The only definition that counts is the legal definition.

Also you might think it's antiquated but there's a reason why it's like it is.

There are wider issues as to why some states of war will be regarded as a "conflict" rather than a war - but in this context the important principles are that you don't say that terrorists are at war with you because it gives them a much more official status than you (for all definitions of you) want to give them.

If you are at war with a country it means - for a start you're officially recognising ISIS as a country, and we don't want that; but also if you are at war with them you have to follow the law and rules that govern it - and we definitely don't want that.

Legal definition of War is “something waged by States or State like entities through armed forces”.  Isn’t Islamic State a “State like entity”?

There's more to it than that (see Falklands Conflict - not Falklands War as an example) but more pertinently  it's a bad idea to say Islamic State is a "State like entity"  - for a start they fall short of a lot of the definition - but primarily States and state like entities are diplomatically fairly important; you don't want to be a country who recognises a terrorist group as something important.
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Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

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DungBeetle
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« Reply #459 on: April 17, 2019, 11:01:33 PM »

Does Treason still exist?  If so surely it’s a slam dunk.  Have the trial to keep the lefties happy and get the noose out?

Yes it's a slam dunk if you can provide evidence that she actively tried to injure the Queen or she was at war with the UK or she was helping an invasion force of the UK.

The closest of these is war - but terrorists aren't soldiers, they're not in an army and they're not in a war (even if that's how they would like to be seen).

She’s joined an organisation at war with the UK.  Done.  The definition of War is antiquated.  This is as near as it gets.

The only definition that counts is the legal definition.

Also you might think it's antiquated but there's a reason why it's like it is.

There are wider issues as to why some states of war will be regarded as a "conflict" rather than a war - but in this context the important principles are that you don't say that terrorists are at war with you because it gives them a much more official status than you (for all definitions of you) want to give them.

If you are at war with a country it means - for a start you're officially recognising ISIS as a country, and we don't want that; but also if you are at war with them you have to follow the law and rules that govern it - and we definitely don't want that.

Legal definition of War is “something waged by States or State like entities through armed forces”.  Isn’t Islamic State a “State like entity”?

There's more to it than that (see Falklands Conflict - not Falklands War as an example) but more pertinently  it's a bad idea to say Islamic State is a "State like entity"  - for a start they fall short of a lot of the definition - but primarily States and state like entities are diplomatically fairly important; you don't want to be a country who recognises a terrorist group as something important.

Whataboutery.  Judge Dung finds Islamic State to be a “State like entity” under international law. You may proceed with your trial.
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #460 on: April 17, 2019, 11:02:57 PM »

What about USA flying illegally into Pakistan to kill Bin Laden?

Don’t remember much outcry from the legal beagles. But we think this was insane wrong and they shudda asked Pakistan to extradite him to USA? Huh? To face a fair trial.

Tbh as unfair as you guys think it is...filling his face full of lead sits ok with me.

USA delivered a solution.
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« Reply #461 on: April 17, 2019, 11:37:33 PM »

Mantis I think we have found common ground with our chums.  We have ruled Islamic State to be a “State like entity”.  The charge can be Treason and everyone can have their day in court to uphold justice?  Kuku can give character witness.
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Marky147
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« Reply #462 on: April 18, 2019, 12:36:02 AM »

Thought ISIS were finished anyway.
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« Reply #463 on: April 18, 2019, 07:00:38 AM »

If we are involved in a "war" with terror and ISIS are involved in "jihad".

They arm themselves and attack us.

How is it not a war, how are they not soldiers?

We are still thinking in traditional terms to solve a modern phenomenon (imo)

I'm pretty sure we've also had a war on waste before - I don't think we need to prosecute any plastic bags for treason though.

The people who have used these terms are engaging in PR.

Do plastic bags blow up our children on their way to school?

Why don’t we change the principle to guilty until proven innocent for the 0.0001% who fly off to join our enemies?

Continuing to quote legalities isn’t delivering solutions mate


Yes, I would be happy with that, but we would still need a trial to prove that an accused person did actually fly off to join our enemies.
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« Reply #464 on: April 18, 2019, 07:29:11 AM »

Playing devil's advocate here somewhat, but has the religious aspect been slightly overlooked here?

The idea of living in an ultra-orthodox caliphate might well have been a key selling-point in persuading deeply religious Muslims to travel to Syria.

Can a 15yr old be said to hold their own deeply religious views? The sense that these young people have been groomed and manipulated is very real.
We probably all held beliefs at 15 that we now see as being wrong. Even BigArz probably had some socialist tendencies in his teens.

We should continue to demonstrate our tolerance and to act as an example of all that is good in Western society. How else can we overcome the excessively intolerant nature of the ‘ultra-orthodox caliphate’.

I’m not suggesting that any specific individual should avoid investigation and possible prosecution for their actions btw. Just saying that before we exile this British citizen we better make damn sure that we have both a good reason for doing so, and a legal framework that allows us to do so.


It's alright Dodgy Dave. Let's all get blown up before we judge anyone.

Quick enough to judge people on here, but prepared to see the best in an ISIS girl.

Says it all really

37 people killed by terrorists in our country since 2010. You do seem overly worried about us all being blown up.

https://fullfact.org/health/austerity-120000-unnecessary-deaths/

Kush, you’ll be telling us that a democratically elected UK government is a bigger threat than ISIS next.

The problem with a ‘threat’ is it means we have to predict the future, we’re all terrible at that. We could just count how many of our citizens they killed, even allowing for the inevitable gross inaccuracies, it’s interesting.

Our Governments might make a complete pigs ear of things, do things we don’t like etc but they are elected by us in a democratic process.

ISIS however want to end of way of life, culture and democracy by any means.

You see what happens when they get some power - the outcome is horrific.

Implying some sort of comparison between the direct deaths from ISIS attacks and austerity is misguided and unnecessary IMO.

It is a good comparison, people are terrible at relative risks.   People losing their minds over this young woman, and people just shut kukushkin down over the link between austerity and the mortality rate.   The diesel/death link is pretty strong too, and I drive one.

Anyway, moving on.

There is a ten minute sky news interview with her on youtube.  I am on my phone and was defeated putting a link up.   I guess it could ve linked to me been unable to see any youtube link on my phone.

Amyway, it is an interesting watch.  She doesn't look in a good way mentally, but I expect that could just as easily be explained by a very recent birth.   She doesn't come across as some entitled young person just expecting a council house.   

It would be good if someone could put it up.

I think you missed the point Doobs.

Whilst the number of people killed directly by ISIS is low, the threat to our way of life, values and democracy by ISIS if unchecked is infinitely more important than the effects of the policies of a democratically elected government.


It would be interesting to know what you thought ISIS was actually going to do to threaten our way of life, values, democracy. Also I have no idea why it’s infinitely more important. One might kill people in large numbers, the other does. Why does it matter if we voted for it?

ISIS ambitions were way beyond Iraq and Syria.

They wanted to destroy western civilisation.

You might laugh at that and say that’s a crazy statement but it’s true.

Wasn’t that long ago we saw a German state killing 6 million Jews.




The truth of Godwin’s Law is confirmed once more. I’m surprised we got to page 8 given the starting point.



History is what it is.

Throughout history, there are plenty of examples of dictatorships and extremists running contries and much worse.

Nazi Germany was just a more recent extreme version.

For us to assume we are immune from such extremists is naive.


You are invoking the nazis whilst trying to strip her of her citizenship? 

Bang out of order Doobs - I have not once commenting on the girl or what to do with her.

Re-read the thread - I expected better from you. Dont tar me with the same brush as others when I've not even commented on her.

If you want my take, I dont think we have a choice but to let her return if she wants to but put her on trial for whatever laws she has broken.


Sorry Rick, I was mistaken.  It was a genuine mistake.

I have just realised I didn’t see your reply Doobs, think I was away for a couple of days after my posts. Thanks :-)
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