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Marky147
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« Reply #825 on: March 26, 2020, 10:53:59 PM »

LOL

Woodsey wasn't trolling for a change, but still got hammered for it, lol.

People were standing outside their houses applauding for the NHS at 8pm, Craig. That's what Woodsey was talking about Smiley

Will nick that post of yours, and pass it on to some whiners I know, mate. Stay safe!
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EvilPie
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« Reply #826 on: March 26, 2020, 11:17:01 PM »

I got a round of applause for putting the bins out earlier, it’s not that hard is it? 

 

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« Reply #827 on: March 26, 2020, 11:28:37 PM »

These new systems for business, workers and self employed are going to be open to so much abuse.

Businesses could essentially claim for workers who are leaving, apply for loans for no reason and/or even if they're going under anyway.

Self employed who are just getting by on £20k's or smaller could potentially play the system to get more money

The only good thing for businesses that need expansion loans, is that they'll never get a better chance of a loan at better rates

This will end up being similar to what people did after Grenfell, applying for money they shouldn't have got. In a year to come will be hundreds of cases of fraud

Businesses can't claim for workers without actually paying them. Everything is done through HMRC online and there's no way of fiddling it. We have to pay our employees first then claim it back. When we pay them we have to submit to HMRC so they know exactly what's happened. The only possible fiddle is to claim the money whilst someone is still working and therefore earning the Company an income. Very dangerous fraud game that one though and unlikely to happen in the majority of Companies

Businesses can't ask for loans without reason at all. If they could I would go out and borrow £5M tomorrow then just stick it in the bank earning 1% for a year and pocket the £50k interest. Applications are done through bank and you actually have to need it to borrow it. Pretty much zero chance of getting the loan for an expansion programme from what I know. It's a business interruption loan and they assess it as such.

Self employed have to base it on previous tax returns. Again no way of fiddling it as the submissions have already been made. The only ones who can fiddle it are those who are late submitting and have been given an extra month. You can guarantee that their expenses will reduce to nothing so that their earnings are maximised.
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« Reply #828 on: March 27, 2020, 12:44:11 AM »

These new systems for business, workers and self employed are going to be open to so much abuse.

Businesses could essentially claim for workers who are leaving, apply for loans for no reason and/or even if they're going under anyway.

Self employed who are just getting by on £20k's or smaller could potentially play the system to get more money

The only good thing for businesses that need expansion loans, is that they'll never get a better chance of a loan at better rates

This will end up being similar to what people did after Grenfell, applying for money they shouldn't have got. In a year to come will be hundreds of cases of fraud

Businesses can't claim for workers without actually paying them. Everything is done through HMRC online and there's no way of fiddling it. We have to pay our employees first then claim it back. When we pay them we have to submit to HMRC so they know exactly what's happened. The only possible fiddle is to claim the money whilst someone is still working and therefore earning the Company an income. Very dangerous fraud game that one though and unlikely to happen in the majority of Companies

Businesses can't ask for loans without reason at all. If they could I would go out and borrow £5M tomorrow then just stick it in the bank earning 1% for a year and pocket the £50k interest. Applications are done through bank and you actually have to need it to borrow it. Pretty much zero chance of getting the loan for an expansion programme from what I know. It's a business interruption loan and they assess it as such.

Self employed have to base it on previous tax returns. Again no way of fiddling it as the submissions have already been made. The only ones who can fiddle it are those who are late submitting and have been given an extra month. You can guarantee that their expenses will reduce to nothing so that their earnings are maximised.


I don't think you realise there are lots of loopholes that potential fraudsters could get through. You're right that most people and businesses won't, but the small fry will see this as an opportunity.

Essentially you could say that an employee that is leaving anyway, isn't leaving. A business is now faced with the opportunity to get loans, because essentially you don't know know if they need the money. If they say ask for an amount due to uncertainty and how long this will last, they will get it. And of course, yes, self employed can do it too, if they're late.

I'm glad of the financial support on offer for those in need - But there will be a certain minority that will abuse it.

I watched Martin Lewis show and that was weird. They had a woman on who was a self employed driving instructor, she didn't know what to do with the new rules. But she struck me as someone who wanted to flout them. She wanted to claim Universal Credit whilst she couldn't work, then claim back all the self employed money in June. Granted, I'm not fully aware of UC requirements, BUT you srely can't get all your money back in June and have a few quid via UC? I am sure she said at one point that she had savings too...
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« Reply #829 on: March 27, 2020, 12:55:29 AM »

I know tonight was the night where we was all supposed to slap the NHS, but also time to see that folk are still putting their personal greed first too.

Yesterday, I had seen that Jeremy Joseph, owner of nightclub brand G-A-Y, who has 4 nightclubs had posted on Twitter to bemoan his landlords. G-A-Y have a lot of money in the bank, they have the largest and most popular nightclub in the UK.

Jeremy had offered to pay all of his landlords the cost price of each venue. He didn't ask for a payment holiday, despite 200 staff. He just politely asked for rents to be at cost priced, instead of the £402k quaterly amount. They said no and offered him the holiday. By time that holiday is over, they'll owe £800k.

It's essentially a small business. In all of this kind stuff, there's plenty of horrid greed going about too.
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« Reply #830 on: March 27, 2020, 06:18:09 AM »

Every government system that provides money is open to fraud and every one of them has people trying to defraud it.

From the announcements made I think it's been clear that all proposals have been pretty thoroughly thought through to balance offering help while trying to avoid possible misuse.

When government schemes are announced in annual budgets they've normally had several months to prepare them and have several months to deliver them, I think the government - and almost certainly a whole bunch of advisors and civil servants - have done a pretty decent job in getting that level down to a few weeks and months.
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« Reply #831 on: March 27, 2020, 07:20:49 AM »

These new systems for business, workers and self employed are going to be open to so much abuse.

Businesses could essentially claim for workers who are leaving, apply for loans for no reason and/or even if they're going under anyway.

Self employed who are just getting by on £20k's or smaller could potentially play the system to get more money

The only good thing for businesses that need expansion loans, is that they'll never get a better chance of a loan at better rates

This will end up being similar to what people did after Grenfell, applying for money they shouldn't have got. In a year to come will be hundreds of cases of fraud

Businesses can't claim for workers without actually paying them. Everything is done through HMRC online and there's no way of fiddling it. We have to pay our employees first then claim it back. When we pay them we have to submit to HMRC so they know exactly what's happened. The only possible fiddle is to claim the money whilst someone is still working and therefore earning the Company an income. Very dangerous fraud game that one though and unlikely to happen in the majority of Companies

Businesses can't ask for loans without reason at all. If they could I would go out and borrow £5M tomorrow then just stick it in the bank earning 1% for a year and pocket the £50k interest. Applications are done through bank and you actually have to need it to borrow it. Pretty much zero chance of getting the loan for an expansion programme from what I know. It's a business interruption loan and they assess it as such.

Self employed have to base it on previous tax returns. Again no way of fiddling it as the submissions have already been made. The only ones who can fiddle it are those who are late submitting and have been given an extra month. You can guarantee that their expenses will reduce to nothing so that their earnings are maximised.


I don't think you realise there are lots of loopholes that potential fraudsters could get through. You're right that most people and businesses won't, but the small fry will see this as an opportunity.

Essentially you could say that an employee that is leaving anyway, isn't leaving. A business is now faced with the opportunity to get loans, because essentially you don't know know if they need the money. If they say ask for an amount due to uncertainty and how long this will last, they will get it. And of course, yes, self employed can do it too, if they're late.

I'm glad of the financial support on offer for those in need - But there will be a certain minority that will abuse it.

I watched Martin Lewis show and that was weird. They had a woman on who was a self employed driving instructor, she didn't know what to do with the new rules. But she struck me as someone who wanted to flout them. She wanted to claim Universal Credit whilst she couldn't work, then claim back all the self employed money in June. Granted, I'm not fully aware of UC requirements, BUT you srely can't get all your money back in June and have a few quid via UC? I am sure she said at one point that she had savings too...

Your business acumen shines through here Aaron. An employee who leaves costs you zero payroll. An employee that you keep costs you at least 20% of their wage plus the cash flow implications of paying them while you wait to get the 80% back.

Mt Pie actually runs a business and understands how the system works. He’s told you that you are wrong.
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« Reply #832 on: March 27, 2020, 08:06:24 AM »

My thoughts were to list 3? ‘ new’ fictional employees claim 80% and trouser it ?
Fake names and ni numbers
What are the chances of being checked ?

Hand washing before bed I realised I was drying them on a towel I had dried my bollocks on after a jacuzzi then a shower earlier in the day 😳
Should towels be one use only

Now I’m a courier driver and have a letter stating that I’m a key employee ,I ventured out to work yesterday
Was it vital that I
A ) delivered two tubs of fence paint to an elderly lady
B ) 3 bags of fertiliser
In the morning
Cue 2-3 hours at home before
C ) picking up items from a transport firm ,some rugs from another , tools from a supplier to a Hermes depot
Then 35 items from hotel chocolate st Neots - a daily gig to dpd raunds ,with addresses like the Netherlands and Berlin on them

My boss picked up ten boxes of hand sanitizer- a worthwhile delivery ? To depots from Doncaster to Aberdeen £500 cost of delivery
Getting a job from Aberdeen this morning meant sleeping in the van overnight as hotels are closed and picking up this morning ?
Yup you guessed hand sanitizer two drop offs at Nottingham n London £480 fee
Bonkers
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StuartHopkin
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« Reply #833 on: March 27, 2020, 08:28:11 AM »

My thoughts were to list 3? ‘ new’ fictional employees claim 80% and trouser it ?
Fake names and ni numbers
What are the chances of being checked ?

Hand washing before bed I realised I was drying them on a towel I had dried my bollocks on after a jacuzzi then a shower earlier in the day 😳
Should towels be one use only

Now I’m a courier driver and have a letter stating that I’m a key employee ,I ventured out to work yesterday
Was it vital that I
A ) delivered two tubs of fence paint to an elderly lady
B ) 3 bags of fertiliser
In the morning
Cue 2-3 hours at home before
C ) picking up items from a transport firm ,some rugs from another , tools from a supplier to a Hermes depot
Then 35 items from hotel chocolate st Neots - a daily gig to dpd raunds ,with addresses like the Netherlands and Berlin on them

My boss picked up ten boxes of hand sanitizer- a worthwhile delivery ? To depots from Doncaster to Aberdeen £500 cost of delivery
Getting a job from Aberdeen this morning meant sleeping in the van overnight as hotels are closed and picking up this morning ?
Yup you guessed hand sanitizer two drop offs at Nottingham n London £480 fee
Bonkers

Employees have to have been on the payroll since 29th Feb so no new fictional employees.
Don't forget to create your fictional employees you would need matching NI numbers as well.

At this point business doesn't have to be essential, but if you cant work from home, then your business travel is essential.
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StuartHopkin
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« Reply #834 on: March 27, 2020, 08:38:54 AM »

These new systems for business, workers and self employed are going to be open to so much abuse.

Businesses could essentially claim for workers who are leaving, apply for loans for no reason and/or even if they're going under anyway.

Self employed who are just getting by on £20k's or smaller could potentially play the system to get more money

The only good thing for businesses that need expansion loans, is that they'll never get a better chance of a loan at better rates

This will end up being similar to what people did after Grenfell, applying for money they shouldn't have got. In a year to come will be hundreds of cases of fraud

Aaron this is utter garbage as always from you. I will get to your rent post in a minute.

This money isn't being handed out to businesses without any checks or cash flow modelling.

My experience so far is that they are looking at these as thoroughly as they normally would, passing them to their credit teams and then if approved they will be passed to the government for approval of the 80% underwriting.
They want to know exactly how your revenue will be effected and then evidence of all the cost cutting you can do to minimise your funding requirement.

We have rent holidays, furloughed 75% of staff, 20% pay cuts for anyone over 30k and then modelled all of the reductions through to paye/pension contribution savings, unauthorised rates deferrals, even down to electricity savings due to the plant and machinery hours being vastly reduced.

No way anyone is getting opportunistic loans or any more than they need through HSBC. Maybe some lenders will try to be less strict but then it sounds like they won't pass the Government checks.



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« Reply #835 on: March 27, 2020, 08:42:16 AM »

I know tonight was the night where we was all supposed to slap the NHS, but also time to see that folk are still putting their personal greed first too.

Yesterday, I had seen that Jeremy Joseph, owner of nightclub brand G-A-Y, who has 4 nightclubs had posted on Twitter to bemoan his landlords. G-A-Y have a lot of money in the bank, they have the largest and most popular nightclub in the UK.

Jeremy had offered to pay all of his landlords the cost price of each venue. He didn't ask for a payment holiday, despite 200 staff. He just politely asked for rents to be at cost priced, instead of the £402k quaterly amount. They said no and offered him the holiday. By time that holiday is over, they'll owe £800k.

It's essentially a small business. In all of this kind stuff, there's plenty of horrid greed going about too.

I tried to type a constructive post to respond to this but I can't

You are just so effing stupid commenting on things that you have zero understanding of.

Rents to be at cost price. FML.

A lot of what is happening right now has nothing to do with personal greed how ever horrible you think the world is.
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EvilPie
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« Reply #836 on: March 27, 2020, 08:42:44 AM »

These new systems for business, workers and self employed are going to be open to so much abuse.

Businesses could essentially claim for workers who are leaving, apply for loans for no reason and/or even if they're going under anyway.

Self employed who are just getting by on £20k's or smaller could potentially play the system to get more money

The only good thing for businesses that need expansion loans, is that they'll never get a better chance of a loan at better rates

This will end up being similar to what people did after Grenfell, applying for money they shouldn't have got. In a year to come will be hundreds of cases of fraud

Businesses can't claim for workers without actually paying them. Everything is done through HMRC online and there's no way of fiddling it. We have to pay our employees first then claim it back. When we pay them we have to submit to HMRC so they know exactly what's happened. The only possible fiddle is to claim the money whilst someone is still working and therefore earning the Company an income. Very dangerous fraud game that one though and unlikely to happen in the majority of Companies

Businesses can't ask for loans without reason at all. If they could I would go out and borrow £5M tomorrow then just stick it in the bank earning 1% for a year and pocket the £50k interest. Applications are done through bank and you actually have to need it to borrow it. Pretty much zero chance of getting the loan for an expansion programme from what I know. It's a business interruption loan and they assess it as such.

Self employed have to base it on previous tax returns. Again no way of fiddling it as the submissions have already been made. The only ones who can fiddle it are those who are late submitting and have been given an extra month. You can guarantee that their expenses will reduce to nothing so that their earnings are maximised.


I don't think you realise there are lots of loopholes that potential fraudsters could get through. You're right that most people and businesses won't, but the small fry will see this as an opportunity.

Essentially you could say that an employee that is leaving anyway, isn't leaving. A business is now faced with the opportunity to get loans, because essentially you don't know know if they need the money. If they say ask for an amount due to uncertainty and how long this will last, they will get it. And of course, yes, self employed can do it too, if they're late.

I'm glad of the financial support on offer for those in need - But there will be a certain minority that will abuse it.

I watched Martin Lewis show and that was weird. They had a woman on who was a self employed driving instructor, she didn't know what to do with the new rules. But she struck me as someone who wanted to flout them. She wanted to claim Universal Credit whilst she couldn't work, then claim back all the self employed money in June. Granted, I'm not fully aware of UC requirements, BUT you srely can't get all your money back in June and have a few quid via UC? I am sure she said at one point that she had savings too...

Your business acumen shines through here Aaron. An employee who leaves costs you zero payroll. An employee that you keep costs you at least 20% of their wage plus the cash flow implications of paying them while you wait to get the 80% back.

Mt Pie actually runs a business and understands how the system works. He’s told you that you are wrong.

Thank you David but I fear we may be bashing our heads against a brick wall trying to educate Aaron on this one.

Aaron, the main point is that in order to claim the 80% payment from the Government you have to make a payment to someone first.

In the example Aaron sets out where someone has left there isn't anyone to pay. If you haven't paid anyone you can't claim.

Are you getting this Aaron? It's all done online via HMRC. We pay the employee first then claim back later. If they've left we have to enter them as a leaver. If we decide to pretend they haven't left we can only claim if we pay them first. There's no way we can possible profit from your particular sneaky scheme but if you think of any more let me know.

This particular part of the support package is pretty much un-fiddleable (new word.....) hence the reason it came out first.

There are doubtless other ways to fiddle the various supports but leave this one alone please, it's as close to bulletproof as they come.
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« Reply #837 on: March 27, 2020, 08:57:47 AM »

Messrs Evil and Bopkin. Have to say I'm very impressed with the way you are getting on with this and protecting your employees and companies as best you can. Sure this was never part of any continuity planning you might do. I can't quite imagine the underlying stress this must have caused. Really good luck fellas and hope Yr companies go from strength to strength when things are normalised.
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« Reply #838 on: March 27, 2020, 09:16:16 AM »

Messrs Evil and Bopkin. Have to say I'm very impressed with the way you are getting on with this and protecting your employees and companies as best you can. Sure this was never part of any continuity planning you might do. I can't quite imagine the underlying stress this must have caused. Really good luck fellas and hope Yr companies go from strength to strength when things are normalised.

Yeah, definitely this, well done guys.
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« Reply #839 on: March 27, 2020, 09:22:50 AM »

Messrs Evil and Bopkin. Have to say I'm very impressed with the way you are getting on with this and protecting your employees and companies as best you can. Sure this was never part of any continuity planning you might do. I can't quite imagine the underlying stress this must have caused. Really good luck fellas and hope Yr companies go from strength to strength when things are normalised.

I had a 28 page appendix to my continuity planning entitled Pandemics & Infectious Diseases.



In all honesty our business continuity plan isn't worth the paper it is written on for standard incidents let alone something like this.

Our workforce have all been great, no issues with any of them even though we have had to go back on a couple of things I hoped to do.

HSBC have been great as always too. Zoom call with old Relationship Director and New, IF Manager and Trade Finance Manager on Tuesday. They had all the required information yesterday.
They are discussing the requirements and structure today. Hopefully with their credit team early next week and fingers crossed for approval by the end of next week. Can't fault that for £2.5m of restructuring.

Aaron's post pissed me off though about the rent. It's just not the reality. Our landlord is personally very very rich. I asked him for 6 months rent free, and he came straight back to me the same day and offered a 6 month holiday with the missed payments being spread over the following 2 years.
That's great. He doesn't have to do anything. I am thankful to him personally for it and it helps both the actual cash flow and the proposal to the bank.
He had already been to his bank to get approval for offering this as he has a large portfolio of properties. So it is huge sums of money he is deferring. He treat's his business as a business it has absolutely nothing to do with greed.
Everyone needs to try and look out for each other right now, but it is still business.

I'm not overly stressed though, I have more of a dull empty feeling as you don't know whether to worry or not.

Oh, plus mini Bopkin mk3 is due imminently (day of the expected peak   ) and that is definitely not straight forward with the current hospital situation!


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