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Author Topic: A terrible tournament rule  (Read 8571 times)
Alex Scott
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« on: April 09, 2006, 04:12:10 PM »

I just posted an article on my website about a really bad rule I discovered last week. I'd be happy if a few of you guys read it and let me know what you think.

http://www.alexdscott.co.uk/articles/article11.html

Cheers.
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redsimon
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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2006, 04:24:06 PM »

Generally done to stop chip dumping. Vital in places like Nottingham
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Ironside
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2006, 04:31:30 PM »

in most places now in the UK both hands are shown at showdown if the bets are called it also stop the messing about where people are arguing over who has to show first so that they can muck there rags if they are beat this can really slow the game down as 2 grown men fight for a minute or 2 over turning there cards


there are no standard rules in the UK but most casinos play by the show all hands at showdown
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Alex Scott
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2006, 08:40:13 PM »

The point of the article is the rule has more detrimental effects than it does positive ones. Do you not agree?
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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2006, 09:26:31 PM »

Alex was this at the Blonde masterclass as this is what happened with one of my hands where the guy indicated that i had won and the dealer insisted on a showdown. There was one player in the corner that wasn't happy with this rule wearing I think a Fulltilt logo?
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Boba Fett
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2006, 11:18:02 PM »

I hate this rule for the simple fact that I could get tot he river, call a bet and take the hand but not see what my opponent raised with pre flop and bet with.  If you pay the price at the end you should be entitled to see your opponents cards as it provides information on how that person plays.  A showdown should be just that...a SHOWdown.  If you're embarrassed to show your hand at the end of betting then you shouldnt have played the hand the way you did.
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dik9
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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2006, 11:53:31 PM »

just read your article and a bit peeved off!!!

For what its worth I think if you call to see a hand then you should see the hand unless the caller shows a winning hand straight away you can muck, but if they want to see your cards they can. If the bettor shows the winning hand and the caller mucks, then the bettor has no rights to see that hand.

The bit i was peeved off about is this bit
"Firstly, I'm not convinced that this rule is standard practice in UK venues. For a start, there isn't a set of rules that has been commonly adopted throughout anywhere in the world, let alone in the UK where most poker tournaments are run by incompetent staff who care more about getting the punters into the venue and fleecing them at table games than they do about running a decent competition. I therefore think its highly likely that the dealer in question either didn't know a lot about poker or was trained by somebody equally ignorant."

Yet another small minded customer who thinks the staff don't care......as staff why would we care how much you do on the tables? I run cardrooms, thats my job, I treat everyone the same to some managers distaste! The pit is not my problem, I just care that the people in the cardroom have a fair game.

Cardrooms are treated as second class to the pit by caisino's as it doesnt make them any money. Now i have to listen to people like you say we are incompetent as we only care about making money??? We get paid the same regardless of whether you play house games or not. My area is cardroom and thats my baby, so i look after my cardroom punters and treat everyone the same, with the rules i adopt to be fair to all. With impartial outcomes. I would love more than anything to adopt a universal set of rules for poker and a few of us have tried to get the ball rolling.

BTW How dare you slag us off!!
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thetank
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2006, 01:08:51 AM »

It might help to get a clue.  Cheesy


To sum things up, this is a rule which might only be useful in preventing cheating once every few years in the whole of the UK



A sentence such as that nonsense makes it possible for a reader to dismiss the entire article (in which you made one or two valid points)

You may have a point that it's embarrasing for new players to show their cards at a showdown and that this might tighten them up. I doubt that the free information is huirting you much though. As a good player, you'll be able to take advantage of the extra info more than others.

Regarding the announcing the pot size,

It's done to make it easier on new players, what's the problem with that. Muffing up a bet is far more likely to turn someone away from a cardroom than having to show what pisch they've been playing in a SHOWdown. (I wonder what the etymology of that word is.)

My main concern is that,

MOST OF YOUR ARGUMENTS AGAINST THE UK RULES SEEM TO REVOLVE AROUND THE FACT THAT IT MAKES THINGS HARDER ON POOR OLD YOU TO FLEECE FOLK.

THE RULES ARE THERE TO MAKE IT A FUN AND FAIR GAME FOR ALL,  NOT TO ENSURE YOUR POCKETS REMAIN LINED WITH SILVER.

I'm against any rule that makes things as hard as possible for a beggining player.
A casual or inexperienced player is at enough of a disadvantage when he sits down with you is he not?



We totally do need to be consistent across the country though, and train the dealers better. Fair points there.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2006, 04:52:22 AM by thetank » Logged

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Alex Scott
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2006, 02:24:33 AM »

A sentence such as that nonsense makes it possible for a reader to dismiss the entire article (in which you made one or two valid points)

Well, it was just conjecture. My point was that collusion is extremely rare, and the instances where this rule would help detect it are even more rare. I'd love to hear someone come up with a more accurate figure.

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just read your article and a bit peeved off

Yeah, I figured that, because your reply to this post over at the Hendon Mob Forums is plain nasty. Rest assured that the article wasn't aimed at you personally. However, the average tournament director or dealer in the UK knows much less about the game than their US equivalent, and that shows on the games. I think that is something that should change.

If you are a good tournament director, I'm very glad, because live poker in the UK needs to change for the better and we need good staff to lead the way. Casino management don't care about anything other than money, and I'm very pleased that you're standing up to them like you say in your post.

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If the bettor shows the winning hand and the caller mucks, then the bettor has no rights to see that hand.

I absolutely agree, and its the whole point of the article. However the rule in question makes the caller turn his hand faceup too, and I really don't agree with that.

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Alex was this at the Blonde masterclass as this is what happened with one of my hands where the guy indicated that i had won and the dealer insisted on a showdown. There was one player in the corner that wasn't happy with this rule wearing I think a Fulltilt logo?

Thats exactly where this situation happened, and I was the guy in the Full Tilt shirt. By the way, I'm sorry if I misjudged you (I refer to the two players involved in the showdown as 'fairly inexperienced'). I didn't spend long at the table with you, and most of the people there seemed fairly inexperienced, so I'm sorry if you're actually a world-class pro and I lumped you in with the rest of them!
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thetank
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2006, 03:54:12 AM »

I'm on the fence still with showdown rule but in it's defence I feel you're being very blinkered about it's benefits.

It's not just there to catch colluders in the act, it's more of a deterrent and educater aswell.
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Yogi-Bear
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2006, 05:37:04 AM »

Not wanting to read your article after reading Dik9's post. I feel too aggreived by it also and I haven't read it.

Yogi
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2006, 06:48:46 AM »

No Alex you were right I am a  fish.
 Cheesy
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2006, 10:10:15 AM »

Hi Alex,

I was also in london when this situation arose and i argued in favour of it as i have experienced so many situations where players from the same clan in dingy casinos are playing a team game and i would love to see their hands as i know they are up to something.

I busted you by the way with the mighty 74os which was an automatic call unfortunately for you.

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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2006, 10:19:37 AM »

I'm not employed by casinos neither do I have any love for them but I think that article was shoddy to say the least there was no attempt and balancing it was just critical of UK staff.

I am only too happy with the rule that is in place and even on many webistes the rule is the same if you get to s a showdown cards should be shown thats the whole point of it being called a "showdown"
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AndrewT
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2006, 10:59:56 AM »

Blimey Alex, I bet you didn't expect all this aggravation from a little article.

I think that starting threads on two forums with no inherent content other than to direct the reader to your own website is spamming. You may not consider it as such but, certainly on here, we're used to reading actual content on the forum or on the main site - it's not an aggregation site for links to things posted elsewhere.

This may not be so bad if the article was highly illuminating, but I don't think it is. It's all well and good writing an article from your point of view on a particular matter, but the undercurrent running through it is "I'm right, and all these people are wrong". You seem to support your argument with statistics you've pulled out of thin air '

I'd say that less than 0.1% of poker players are colluders. This might be slightly higher in live tournaments, since players tend to attend these events with their friends and not by themselves, but the figure is probably still extremely low.'

I can appreciate that you want to make a career out of the poker business and to do that you need to be able to draw attention to yourself. However, we are all, no matter how knowledgeable or experienced, merely students of the game. I agree with Tank's points about things like announcing pot size (and letting players know when it's their big blind). If you sit down at any tournament table in the country, even at major festivals, you will be sat with people who have never played live before. You can either sharpen your claws and make life as uncomfortable as possible for them so it affects their game or allow the dealer to make things a little easier for them. If you feel that this gives up some of your edge at the poker table, then maybe you're not quite as good as you seem to think you are.

Alex, you can string a sentence together, and you do have strong views on the game, so I am sure that you are able to give valued contributions to a great many topics on here, provided you consider us more than just potential eyeballs for your personal website.

Blondeites of some months standing may well have the name of a past poster on here going through their heads. That didn't end well, though I think that Alex has the capacity to make far more worthwhile contributions than that particular individual did.
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