When to 3-bet in No limit Cash (out of position)

[WellChief]

A situation that occurs a lot in NL cash is when you raise with AK for example, and are called by an aggressive player who has position on you.  Lets say the flop is 2 7 7.  You bet 2/3 pot and are raised.  Eg. You raise to 21 preflop (blinds 3/6), called by button and pot is 50ish.  You bet 35 and are raised to 90.  Now aggressive and good players will raise you quite often on this kind of flop, to take the pot off you with nothing or hodling some kind of pocket pair.  In my experience if you fold this every time then you will be run over at this level.  The question is how often should you 3-bet, and how much more should you raise to find out where you stand.

The pot would be around 170 when the action gets back to you, so the raise would have to be substantial, perhaps 120-150 more?  This may force them off a low pair and also if they are simply bluffing. 

Obviously this is very opponent-dependant and depends on both of your stacks, but am I right in saying you must do this at times to stop you being pushed around or should you be folding almost every time?  Or is calling, seeing a turn, and leading out a better strategy? 

[totalise]

A situation that occurs a lot in NL cash is when you raise with AK for example, and are called by an aggressive player who has position on you.  Lets say the flop is 2 7 7.  You bet 2/3 pot and are raised.  Eg. You raise to 21 preflop (blinds 3/6), called by button and pot is 50ish.  You bet 35 and are raised to 90.  Now aggressive and good players will raise you quite often on this kind of flop, to take the pot off you with nothing or hodling some kind of pocket pair.  In my experience if you fold this every time then you will be run over at this level.  The question is how often should you 3-bet, and how much more should you raise to find out where you stand.

The pot would be around 170 when the action gets back to you, so the raise would have to be substantial, perhaps 120-150 more?  This may force them off a low pair and also if they are simply bluffing. 

Obviously this is very opponent-dependant and depends on both of your stacks, but am I right in saying you must do this at times to stop you being pushed around or should you be folding almost every time?  Or is calling, seeing a turn, and leading out a better strategy? 

yes, against aggro players you figure to have a lot of FE. Your problem is that you are going to get called quite often when you are behind, but rarely when ahead (although if they fold better hands enough of the time, this is no bad thing at all)  My preferred play here is to make it to the turn, and then either lead, or check/push (stack size permitting). It seems a LOT more powerful then 3-betting the flop, and it gets more dead money from him if he follows through on a bluff.  It also gives you a chance to hit on the turn, or get a free card if they get suspicious. However, I think that as a default line, you should be less aggro when you miss.

If they are good and aggressive though, with hands like AK i try not to bloat pots OOP preflop, because of the problems faced.  They can exploit position so well, its a massive handicap to you.

Re-raising with marginal potentials isn't really a terrible idea, it lets them think you have missed, when in fact you have hit, so you get deceptive value from your hands, and it gives them more of an opportunity to make a mistake. if you are only reraising with good hands, it makes you too exploitable. Once they see you are mixing it up with 5/7, that will also slow em down postflop... although this makes the game very whippy.

In short... raise less preflop, and give up more postflop. It seems like you are playing like a pussy, but that really is the pwer of position.

[ACE2M]

I like the analysis totalise. I find this to be extremely tricky situation.

You find this a lot with strong players who will raise if the flop is not a raisers flop and of course i'm sure you do it against weak players.

It's nasty as you are sure they are bluffing but the raise is daunting.

Personally i let them have their way with me a couple of times and then when they have established in their minds that they can knock me off a hand i put the raise in which sets off the alarms of a tight player re raising and they fold and you make the money lost previously back. Now i hope for the same situation again and 3 bet it again, his cogs start turning and he suspects a bluff and may make a 4 bet but probably won't (if he does you can lay it down with the same beneficial mindset in place). Now i pray for the goods and try to engineer the same situation as it will be an afront to his manhood to to lie down 3 times and you can extract a truly big bet if not all his chips.

[TightEnd]

interesting stuff guys

does no one ever try the check raise post flop against an aggressive oppo?

in my experience this picks up pots (granted I don't try it too often but I create an ABC tight image to allow me some FE just for when these situations crop up) often and even if they call the flop bet you can often pick up a free card after it goes check check on the turn

Many times I see the following


Raise by MP/Late position

I reraise OOP with AK hoping to pick it up, they call behind

flop 277 for example

I check, they bet, I raise, they call

flop rag

check, they check because they either a) fear the rope-a-dope or simply b) have nowt

river either you hit or or try and steal it because the guy has not followed through on the turn and he suspects you might have been trapping him all along

the steal attempts on the river work for me, maybe its just the perception of myslef I have created


no? yes? shut up?

[WellChief]

I don't like the check raise followed by the check on the turn.  If your opponent calls your check-raise on the flop, and the turn goes check-check, then im sure you will get called on the river if the river has not appeared to help you.  What if you check the turn and the opponent bets at you?  You can't really flat-call as this shows your weak unless you often make strange plays like this.  Check-raising again would surely commit you to the pot. 

I quite like Totalises suggestion of keeping the pots smaller when out of posiition, and its something I have been doing with AK.  I usually just flat call with it if there's been a raise and im in the blinds.  I will usually then bet out depending on the number of opponents.  I like the idea of reraising occasionaly with marginal potentials as you call them (I assume you mean low connectors).  You can then represent a re-raising hand on a high flop and your hand is disguised on a low flop.

[totalise]

check-raise ok. The main thrust of my post was to try and figure out the optimal line after our hero has already lead out.

the only problem with the check-raise on the flop (as I see it)  is that checking the turn is a really weak sign, its almost signalling that you took a stab at the pot... (because people aren't going for the checkraise on flop AND turn very often) I guess if you have cultivated an image, you might be playing like this on turn for pot-control, but if you get called on the flop after the c/r, i think you either bomb the turn, or just check/give up unless you improve. Especially against aggro players... they launch themselves into these turn checks.

when i raise OOP, i like to lead with made hands and swishes, it seems to give coverage as they dont know if you have anything or not, so your hand is a mystery, so it builds pots quicker when you have something, and seems to get bluffs through cheaper when you miss (as they then have to raise your bet, making the price of a bluff higher).... but thats my default line.

in this spot, c/r is ok, leading is ok, check folding is even ok as long as you do all of them some of the time. How you weight it is just a matter of personal preference and opponent tendancies.

[ACE2M]

keeping the pot small and just calling with AK when in bad position against just one opponent is a very valid tatic especially against aggressors and cetainly throws them off for future similar situations but often leads to your pre flop re raises garnering to much respect and damages your potential to win big pots against the aggressors when you have monsters.

I've had a glass of wine but i know what i just said is rather contradictory but am i the only one who tries to wear down opponents into making big mistakes in huge pots? Is this tactic bad? Should i be taking many small to medium pots or pushing for huge coups?

[totalise]

keeping the pot small and just calling with AK when in bad position against just one opponent is a very valid tatic especially against aggressors and cetainly throws them off for future similar situations but often leads to your pre flop re raises garnering to much respect and damages your potential to win big pots against the aggressors when you have monsters.

I've had a glass of wine but i know what i just said is rather contradictory but am i the only one who tries to wear down opponents into making big mistakes in huge pots? Is this tactic bad? Should i be taking many small to medium pots or pushing for huge coups?

if you are continuously taking many small/medium pots, then by that process you are more likely to get the good end of a confrontation

If you can repeatedly play small pots OOP, and then control and play big pots in position, you are essentially making him bang his brick head against a wall, and when people do that, they tend to try and force the action, which is when you hope to get the confrontation

If you can nullify a good players positional advantage, you really take away his arsenal

[robyong]

Personally if a "player" (mover and shaker)  calls me on the button i assume rightly or wrongly he is making a play on me and if miss or hit I bet 100% - 125% of the pot which means he must put in a huge re-raise to make that move. If he flat calls I assume he expects me to check the turn so I make a 100% pot bet on turn then probably give the hand up on the river, as he must have me beat (unless an A drops), then its tough 4 him to call all-in even if I have no Ace. I find this play more profitable in cash games than tournaments though.......................if i'm wrong, just pull up again!

[Rookie (Rodney)]

interesting stuff guys

does no one ever try the check raise post flop against an aggressive oppo?

in my experience this picks up pots (granted I don't try it too often but I create an ABC tight image to allow me some FE just for when these situations crop up) often and even if they call the flop bet you can often pick up a free card after it goes check check on the turn

Many times I see the following


Raise by MP/Late position

I reraise OOP with AK hoping to pick it up, they call behind

flop 277 for example

I check, they bet, I raise, they call

flop rag

check, they check because they either a) fear the rope-a-dope or simply b) have nowt

river either you hit or or try and steal it because the guy has not followed through on the turn and he suspects you might have been trapping him all along

the steal attempts on the river work for me, maybe its just the perception of myslef I have created


no? yes? shut up?

I have to agree with TE here, i like this play a lot and it feels good when you pull it off too!

[Nem]

interesting stuff guys

does no one ever try the check raise post flop against an aggressive oppo?

in my experience this picks up pots (granted I don't try it too often but I create an ABC tight image to allow me some FE just for when these situations crop up) often and even if they call the flop bet you can often pick up a free card after it goes check check on the turn

Many times I see the following


Raise by MP/Late position

I reraise OOP with AK hoping to pick it up, they call behind

flop 277 for example

I check, they bet, I raise, they call

flop rag

check, they check because they either a) fear the rope-a-dope or simply b) have nowt

river either you hit or or try and steal it because the guy has not followed through on the turn and he suspects you might have been trapping him all along

the steal attempts on the river work for me, maybe its just the perception of myslef I have created


no? yes? shut up?

I don't like this play at all. 

[The Baron]

My experience of this type hand leads me to believe you must push the action on the turn to win the pot Vs an aggressive player.

I like to check-call the flop, then lead out on the turn. The turn bet must be big though, pot sized. It's a good way to make someone read you for AA/KK/trips - especially on a non-drawing flop, it shows real strength. I like to do it after I "let" him reriase me off a pot once, so that he thinks that this time I've got it.

Another option is small betting the flop, say 1/4 the pot. It looks dodgy as hell and throws them off. He usually raises you here anyway but in this case your reraise to move him off the pot would now be much smaller than in the original scenario.

[The Baron]

Forgot to add by checking the flop you always have the option to pass if he does something dodgy (like way overbet the flop) and also wanted to say it's VERY player specific. I'd only move here on a player I knew to be at it.

[JP]

Been playing a lot of NL cash this week for a change. I find AK a hand that will not win many big pots and my aim is to win the huge pots so I will let a lot of smaller pots go rightly or wrongly \it has been working well at the 5/10  level as people tend to "hang" themselves in the big pots so I am more than happy to let the little pots o. i might pop on the flop other times I might just check fold. I will not take the check raise approach if I have raised preflop.

[Dubai]

Unless you are playing short handed poker against hyper aggressive opponents its near impossible to win a huge pot with AK in cash. Bar the beautiful QJT flop.