blonde poker forum

Sometime whilst during the live stream of the DTD Monte Carlo 250K guaranteed I decided to some research on the players left in.... and then I came across this, low and behold, on that wonderful place called 'twitter' ...
 Quote " Watch the stream and text me all significant hands / tendancies etc pls! Ty xxx "

 http://twitter.com/#!/cambridgealex

 Now to me .... Isn't poker about getting YOUR OWN READS on the opposition you're playing????????????????

 I don't know what anyone else thinks of this but I see it as collusion. So you sir ...ARE A COWARD, and to another extent...A CHEAT....

 And if this post gets Deleted then I know you all accept cheating as part of the new game.......

whilst the title is obviously worded badly- i do tend to agree stuff like this is pretty bad and is a reason why streaming on a delay just is a joke and hugely detrimental to the ethics of a poker tournament

Pretty brave to come on and slate someone anonymously though.

Cheat Cheat Cheat!!!

 ;boldie;

Thought there was a better popcorn .gif than that on here.

1% corner pocket!

he'd be stupid not to take advantage of a situation that all his opponents can take advantage of!

no problem with this in the slightest.

OI! Don't slag my .gif!

But yeah, not a big fan of this sort of stuff.

Pretty sure everyone was taking advantage of this and, FWIW, most of Alex's friends were there railing him in person

Doesnt make it right if everyone is doing it. Just proves that delayed streaming is hugely detrimental for the game

TBH I texted him that Mitch was a greedy fat git, not sure if that helped much but if it did i'm sure Alex will sort me out with a %.

I'm a badass ldo

Can you explain where he cheated?

:dontask:

streaming hole cards is obv terrible for the game.  but theres no way i wouldn't be finding out hands from ppl watching dont believe its ''wrong'' to do in the slightest.  

Great read..... did you also tell him seat 8 was quite good.

I never said it was right, but why would you not do it if everyone else is? Pretty -EV IMO. I was there and I know for a fact there were people on that final table getting texts that werent their mum wishing them GL.

Alex left the table to go to the toilet and to speak to his rail. I honestly can remember maybe 1 occasion where he actually took his phone out.

Besides this, do you realise how many people in the WSOP main actually did exactly this? I dont see a topic about them? Haters gonna hate

TBH both points of view are correct.  It is detrimental to the game in so far as that he can get an unfair advantage but he would also be a fool not to use it and cede that advantage to others.  It is a bit like HUD's in that whilst you can take that advantage you should but it makes the less savvy players losses bigger and when the fish lose their money quicker then it is bad for the overall game.

I agree with this, but it's not 'cheating' is it?  No rules have been broken, even if you don't like what he did.

hole cards were good, amde it very interesting and I LOVED watching it.

It just adds another dynamic to the game which is fine.

Does this mean i move 1 spot up the pay ladder?


SHIP!!!

If players actually refused to agree to ridiculous things like holecards being shown in streams then wouldnt have these problems. But in a poker sense its obviously wrong to know your opponents hole cards when he hasnt shown you etc, even tho the information is easily available- it doesnt make your actions wrong, it makes the whole process wrong

yeh i didn't even read any of the messages till after anyways as we weren't allowed our phones out on the tv table (maybe for this exact reason).

the only time i was away from the table was chatting to my rail.

and went for a poo.

Players get paid nothing for providing entertainment. This isnt a sport where prizemoney is handed out! This is a game where you PAY to play and receive a dividend. Why should another dynamic be added? No-one is compensated for it

you played awesome Alex. Did you actually tweet this coz i never saw it Quote " Watch the stream and text me all significant hands / tendancies etc pls! Ty xxx ".
I saw you ask for information about players but never saw you tweet this. I always runn players i dont know through google etc and dont see that as doing anything wrong.

Op, post your name and why the fuck you care or GTFO imo

agree with dubai shouldnt show hole cards

agree with dave that id snap be fiinding out wtf everyone else is up to if i was in Alex's spot.

For everyone's information.

Our usual rule is no phones to be used whilst in a hand.

In this particular case regarding the live stream, after 25 minutes of play ALL players were told they were not allowed ANY communication devices at the table.

In whole everyone complied. No more than 7 times in the total time of the final did players leave the table to use their phones (that's 7 collectively in 8 hours) I don't believe Alex left the table at all to use his phone.

One player took his phone out of his pocket to look at it twice, as I was going to warn him he got knocked out.

It is impossible to control what happens during a break!

Saying that, Alex did talk to the rail a few times and I was aware that a couple of his rail were watching the Live feed in the VIP room ( at the same time as everyone else to make clear). No railers had any access to the actual live feed without the delay. Everyone had the same access as Alex's railers if they had a phone with flash or laptop in the club, so no advantage could be considered. I can't punish Alex for having a larger rail than everone else?

There was something that I was unhappy about during the attempted deal in the VIP that shouldn't have happened but as a deal wasn't made it wasn't serious and will speak to Alex when I see him next. lol

Sick rubs from Richard. "I can't punish Alex for having a larger rail than everone else?"

Sorry for almost bounding through the table area when Alex was all in Rich, I managed to run from 32 to the feature table in about 3 strides, couldnt hit the brakes in time XD

Pmsl

+1

So they weren't allowed phones at the table - but there was/is nothing in the rules that says they can't be on their phones/laptops/walkie talkies/fax machines during a break or away from the table?

Is there anything in the rules that covers talking to others away from the table about other players, either during the play (not during a hand obviously) or on a break?

lol@both

jamie's an animal

where in the rules does it say u cant use ipod/phone at table? it really keeps me composed hwen i play, i wouldnt be happy if i couldnt do what id dsone oin the tournamnet to get me there

I agree that the process is terrible and DTD need to seriously consider whether they want to persist with this strategy. I might be an old-fashioned type of player but the way I see things is that you spend most of your time creating an image in a tournament and significantly less of the time trading off that image. The time you spend trading off your carefully crafted image is the most profitable thou. If another player has a mind to question that image they must put chips into the pot to see the proof of the pudding at showdown. If in fact players can be told for sure that you are actually opening light during the game then poker becomes a mockery. All your work goes down the drain. It also takes away a lot of the skill and perception of the game because you are getting free information that you shouldn't be entitled to. You should decide for yourself during a game what range to ascribe another player. That info should not just be handed to you for free.

Not saying anything about Alex and don't want to diminish his victory. WP sir. But the process is a farce imo.

Poker rules are about ten years behind technology, with the exception of playing in a box with no spectators and being searched on entry for phones etc there will always be a possible technological advantage somewhere.

The main issue here is the live feed, surely this is great for the spectators and is something to be encouraged for the growth of poker? Precautions to try and avoid any possible misdemeanors are taken, apart from having the delay on the feed and no communication devices at the table, what else should be done?

 

Are you saying that there should be no televised poker at all? Or updates for that matter?

I was just clarifying Rich, and I agree with what you've said.

Now can the OP please point out where Alex cheated, thanks.

I think live feed- Yes.

 With hole cards- No

Wasn't this exactly what happened with the WSOP final table Stuart Fox played in a year or two back? Players were locked in a black hole or something with no communication allowed.

In your opinion, Is this the direction poker should go in?

Locking good players in a room sounds like a good idea to me.  Would give us other players a better chance :D

were phones banned on days 1 and 2 when there was a live feed?

Surely everyone can see that a live stream (or even slightly delayed stream) with holecards being shown is a ridic bad idea if it means that the players have access to the holecards? Doesn't matter whether that's when they are talking to the rail or sitting at the table.

No feed on days 1a and b, but day 2 just had the usual restrictions i.e. no phones to be used during the hand, Wasn't so bad on day 2 as the feature table was changed every 2 hours max, and I believe the feed was about an hour behind. In hindsight though it should have been.

New DTD sign?

(http://mountcope.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/coward-2.jpg)

I imagine next time Alex sits down to a nice warm rhubarb crumble he will be eating it with this....


(http://www.samuelfrench.com/store/images/2804_CowardyCustard.jpg)


I like the feed, means agoraphobics like me can join in the fun.

The feed was entertaining but would have been just as good without hole cards imo

Why should players PAY to play and be forced into revealing their hole cards for nothing? It's not a sport. We aren't paid to entertain

Please don't get me wrong here, as a TD I detest TV Production crews in poker, they interfere with everything and mess players about, but if it is entertaining then people want to watch.

6 years ago every player was fighting for TV time (could lead to sponsorship by getting your name out there to the masses) now sponsorship is drying up the same players arent quite so sure.

There was a notice on the front door of DTD warning players that this system was operating for this comp, players could choose to play it or not.

If a player studies HSP for months he will get to know a higher profile players game, just as a football team will review opponents last matches and change their starting line up accordingly.

If someone does their homework ... fairplay.

In the situation of yesterdays final, I would be straight on a computer reviewing my opponents play during breaks if I am honest. Do I agree with it? Possibly not but if everyone else has that option it is fair.

For the record, I think yesterday was a trial, it may  or may not have worked but I didn't hear any players complaining which was my main worry.

Nah....

I know I'm the minority on this one. I actually enjoy watching poker without hole cards with commentary. Someone like Jp kelly doing it would be great as was Busquet when he did the WSOP.

Agree with this.

Pretty sure Genting are rolling these tables out across their group in the near future too with plans to stream online as well as in house.

Huh no, televised poker a week after the comp is finished is fine cos it doesn't affect that game at all. As a player if you think people will learn your tendancies for the next game then you can change your strat for the next game if you want. And updates don't reveal anything that the players at the table don't already know. What I don't want is during a game my oppos being told I'm not actually the rock they think I am.

would've been better if the pics and sound were synced. by the time I got to see people's holecards preflop jp had already told me all about the betting and the board and had moved on to the next hand. hard to tell how entertaining it is when it's not working right

As others have said, live poker with commentary but no hole cards is just as good if not better (if commentators are good) than having the hole cards.

Hole cards can't help but make everything very results-orientated, which is super dull.

I didn't watch the live stream but were there tracking chips in the chips, so that each bet size and pot won was exact? For the purposes of following a live stream this is more important if the commentators can't track the bets accurately due to being too far away.

Disagree with this  George.
Hole cards add so much to TV poker..... why do you think it's popularity increased hugely once technology made this possible?

Cos 6 years ago people were generally shit and would have literally no idea about what was going on. There's enough poker on tv with hole cards for the public

Watching poker without hole cards is obv good for me but not for Joe public. I doubt Joe public is actually watching a web stream so without hole cards is fine. Think the Irish Open got a lot of viewers I believe.

Also what's stopping somebody studying body language and noticing a tell when a player has a big hand and passing that tell onto their friend sat at the table? Their friend has not noticed such a tell themselves so shouldn't have that info spoon fed to them by somebody with better abilities.

Think it depends what level the viewer is at really.  People on this forum (ie generally good players) are happy not to have hole cards because they find entertainment in assigning ranges to players and listening to great players like Busquet doing the same.  Fish need the hole cards to get the entertainment out of it and that plays a big role in attracting them to the game.  In terms of this comp I doubt more than 5% of the audience watching the stream were in the latter category so i doubt it really matters and the fact that it undermines the game probably makes it a negative overall imo.

I cant believe so many players dislike the hole cards on TV.  I think its great and can only be great for poker.  I watched most of the live stream, having the hole cards and reasonable commentators made it way more interesting to watch than watching a live stream where the only hands we see are those that are tabled.  Its about as exciting as railing the table if you're actually at the event and people never do that anyway unless they have a friend at the final.  It increases the interest in the game and the players at that time and surely that can only be a good thing?

And I cant see how it can provide a disadvantage, everyone is aware of it, everyone can use it however they like.  Everyone knows that after 30 minutes its possible that everyone at the tables knows what you had and how you played your hands so as a player you can adjust accordingly and means there is probably more of a need for balancing ranges.

The 3 most recent events I remember most that I watched online recently were this FT, the 48 hour cash game from DTD and the WSOP ME coverage as opposed to the other WSOP FT's with no hole cards or commentary I only turned the streams on in the background when I knew someone on the FT and I havent watched live streams of any other tourneys.  If the extra coverage can entice a random to watch that wouldnt have watched otherwise then I think it must be something that can be a benefit to the game.

But there are no randoms viewing a link on a poker website! Only poker players - which is why comparisons to televised poker are fundamentally ridiculous

Forgot about this........ thought JP Kelly was excellent yesterday.

And what if somebody is proper tilted because they think you bluffed them out of big pot? Rather than have to deal with those tilt emotions for the remainder of the game about 20 mins later they get the info that they made a fantastic fold and continue with the game now super confident. It's just fecking with poker every which way.

The company that did this have only done one before ........ The Irish Open!

Also, there is the added thing that poker players can be lured into a call based on sating their curiosity. The burning desire to know what the other guy had, which would eat away at their insides, can get players to make calls they shouldn't.

Now they know they can find out in half an hour so can more happily fold.

Well done to the new poster who made one of the worst OP's I've ever seen. Way to go not putting a name to your post too when calling someone out. Nice one.

Dik9 - players were told the event was gonna be filmed so could choose to play or not as you put it. Was it made clear they weren't allowed to use their phones should they make the feature table? This is a pretty pointless thing as railers would be able to use their phones and tell people what their opponents had.

I personally don't like the use of these hole card cams when a live feed is running on such a short delay as I think it's bad for the game.

were they made aware that the event was going to be filmed with holecards shown when entering online sats? I'm assuming not and as their stacks were put in play from the off they wouldn't have the choice of whether to play or not once they arrived

You cant use your phone anyway if involved in the hand FEED OR NO FEED, our old rule was you couldn't use the phone at anytime at the table. I stated very clearly at the final table that no communication devices are to be used at the Final table, because of the feed and everyone complied without any questions, apart from Mitch who asked if I was going to lock them in a cage during a break lol.

No but believe it was stated on the site that there would be a live feed http://www.dusktilldawnpokerclub.com/news.php?id=1985

9ballCP....

I hope you have at least  $137,943 in winnings on your hendon mob or frankly your opinions are not valid.

ha ha. you know who he is dave?......

We can rule out Smashed Again then on a double log in.

rotflmfao rotflmfao....lil dave i'm calling you out.  thought wait a minute i've got about 137k. very well played

just for the record i dont know who 9 ball corner pocket is. Alex played some excellent poker and 100% deserved to win this. if he had not won then this whole subject would not have been brought up. he did tweet the original post but Ian Gascoigne said that the stream would be stopped if people tweeted him hands. Alex is honourable and i hope people can rejoice in his success.  i personally love seeing hole cards during streams and think it adds to the tension. Dubai is correct about streams not attracting any audience outside of players/family/friends. Thanks for thinking my opinion counts lol

Ignoring the op (obv) this thread has turned into quite a good debate, wp.

WHO THE F**K r u anyway?

i think u must b the guy alex knock out!

post ur name or GTFO this site.

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

0t3r[0ujp' pm09e2K-EW3 9M[[---

first off all congrats to Alex
and rest of final table

I think this is an interesting debate have some questions about the streaming
for the record i do not have strong views on streaming Although did two hours on there table moved off and 15 mins later was reseated back there which ended up going through bubble period so not sure if second visit was longer than two hours
first two hours my impression was getting less hands per hour dealt with interuptions to table through dealer head set
asking to wait players reminded to place hole cards in box etc... if this was a trial did dtd monitor hands per hour compared to none streamed tables ?

other questions that spring to mind

1. How secure is the live data capture ?

2. Don't think its fair to assume some one satting in a while ago would be aware that delayed streaming would happen
from dtd website

Plans to stream the £250,000 Guaranteed Monte Carlo Event!


248 view(s)




Just 2 weeks away from the prestigious Monte Carlo. Read up on the latest event and satellite details.


This month’s Monte Carlo event will be streamed live on the Dusk Till Dawn website and live hole cards will be shown with a 30 minute delay. This means you can keep up to date on all the action from the comfort of your own home. If that’s not good enough – bag your self a seat in one of our satellites. We still have another 96 seats guaranteed…

prior to this i think there was a mention that it might be televised ? But i  might be wrong

3. Was stream recorded is it going  to be put up internet for future viewing ?
(I would like to watch it lol )

4 does DTD have viewing figures ? how many unique users watched it  and when more when ft airred ? and where from Nottingham and ?

finally as for op think he should declare what his interest is ?

I am guessing this is 1st place monte carlo money in $$$ basil

no i'm afraid not....its my hendonmob earnings to the nearest $

$126,337.07 IMHO would be a satisfactory amount

IMO hole cards didn't ought to be streamed in live feeds. I think Olivier Busquet and Antonio Esfandiari (and JP from what I've heard) proved that with good knowledge of the game you can give good theory/commentary of the hand in play without being too results orientated (Hellmuth for example).

That said, if you have the opportunity to see some of it/hear it from your mates in the break, then you'd be a fool not to take advantage of it. I like probably most on here followed the majority of big names on twitter during the WSOP this year and on more than one occasion saw that Negreanu and JRB were 'rushing back to see the last 30 minutes of the live stream' to get more information on their opponents. I don't think for one minute that their fellow players were calling them a coward or a cheat.

GG OP'er Lol.

h, I will try and answer your points as best i can. Please bare in mind I am a TD and didn't have anything to do with the production. I am sure I could get the answers to the questions I cant answer when I return to work.

wtf Richard re post so i can read it

Loving the irony of calling someone a coward with an anon post on the internet.

we have already established that the op played the event and was ........... Anon

Is the commentary done live and then delayed 1/2 hour or is it done as it's aired?

From what I saw it was done about a minute before the pictures were broadcast.

Commentary was done live as it happened

This could be a worry then as people can see holecards live. what stops them passing on the info?

So if you made the final table with no iphone etc / rail, you would have been at a disadvantage then ???

Doesn't seem right.

I give up lol

You couldn't use phone at table!

Don't know who commentated but the commentators were locked in the only room where the actual live feed was surrounded by the 3 man production crew!

of course not at the table.........but you could use them in a break and chat/analyse with friends ?

very good

but what's to stop one of the production crew texting someone on the rail who signals to a player who's been stalling over a difficult decision? with the amount of money at stake I think anyone having access to a live feed with holecards is really dangerous. surely the commentary can be done as it's aired rather than live

also good

You could use a fckin Nokia 3210 jeez lol
Have you read the thread?

why would the production crew do this? it's their reputation at stake, hey i tried to get a peek at the back room and trust me no one was getting in there! and there was no way to watch the stream at dtd.

Excellent....does it make tea?

No but the charger can be used for my portable kettle :)

surely any one with a rail of half decent poker players, observing when not streamed
would have a slight advantage if he was getting  decent feed bad during breaks cant see any one accusing them of cheating



the more interesting point is showing hole cards and length of delay

and how it may or may not effect your play  with these circumstances

serious question? money perhaps


there clearly was otherwise the couldn't have done the commentary live

Think LeKnave has come across really badly in this thread

Seems like the sort of lad who would mug an old granny given the oppourtunity

FYP

ok edit that to not to anyone outside of that secret back room i wasn't allowed in.

I think the production crew set to gain a lot more from the rent / sales of their equiptment, why risk future business to make a small %? I spent a while chatting to these guys the tech they use is awesome and they are extremely passionate about their product. 

I think that I prefer the whole live feed/hole-card scenario better when the hole-cards are only visible when there's a flop a la WSOP.

It doesn't seem fair to me that a player's full strategy should get exposed.

I wouldn't have thought MP's would risk their jobs, reputations, and a prison sentence to make a few k on expenses either. They come across as passionate about stuff. Then steal our money.

It would be a marv long-term grim to get in that room imo.

He's not denying it then, takes after his boy Rooney

I was watching briefly on my I-pad

No because without all the info you've just got a bunch of your mates with their own opinions and guesses. Knowing the facts is much different I think.

not live you weren't

I'm talking about the people with live access- commentators and techs

What if blah blah blah.  What if the exact opposite happened.  What if you bluffed someone out of a big pot and they folded and were convinced they were beat and 30 mins later someone tells them it was a bluff and it causes them to go on monkey tilt??

I cant think of a situation that could arise through streaming where the opposite could not occur or that only 1 person could benefit from but the rest couldnt.  It changes the playing field, but it doesnt create an imbalance.

PS and where did 20 minutes come from?  Its on a 30 minute delay plus the time it takes to get away from the tv table to check phone, Im not convinced anyone has a friend on the rail/watching at home that can see 10 mins into the future

Yeah with the 30 min delay obv.......

Yeah I don't think you get it bud. People outside of the game are introducing additional info into the game that you don't know yourself as a player in that game. Considering I always learnt from the start that poker is a game of incomplete info and it's your job to complete the picture I think that's quite a big deal. Those few examples I rattled off were just for giggles. But you are right. Both my example and your example demonstrate how a normal game could completely change course due to that additional info being introduced.

This happens beyond a live stream anyway bud.  Coming back for the final table do you think the players werent hendon mobbing the other players? Searching online for any info on them, asking friends about how some people played.  Would you also ban all of this because someone might not have internet access the night before the FT and dont have as many friends in poker to provide them with as many notes on the other players as possible?

The extra information provided by the stream is the same for everyone and is available to everyone.  Just because 1 player might be able to gather and use this info better than another doesnt mean it shouldnt be allowed at all.

Cliffs:

LeKnave bangs grannies.

I don't think it's ok that your access to bonus in-game info is dependant upon the quality of your external sources. A good coach on the sideline gives you an advantage and this isn't a team event. Also I don't care that you know what I did in past games I just don't want you to know what I'm doing in this game.

pussys pussy

M
E
H

You kids got nothing better to get excited about?

Very well played Alex btw

This didn't really piss me off at all at first. I was over the moon at the win and just thought, meh what a load of shit, I obv did nothing wrong, glad everyone agrees.

But this morning my housemates could've done a shit on my chest whilst I was asleep and it wouldnt've pissed me off.

Now I'm not so euphoric I can respond.

9ballCP - you are a massive cock. Go die in a grease fire.

Kthxbye.

9ballCP hasn't gpt $137k in live winnings therefore no-one cares
Alex is accepting people to shit on his chest now he has won £77bean
Dubai doesn't like hole cards on live feeds
LeKnave fucks old women and the brags about it on public forums.

wp OP you;ve really got this one through

 May I thank all those who have responded to my post, and yes many of you may not like it or its tone but I'm glad the controversial nature of this has been discussed, albeit it rather brief and somewhat misguided.
 Secondly, may I add that who I may be, what I have achieved in life , be it on or off the felt, whether I played in this tournament or not, or even if I like the colour blue has no bearing on the reason behind my post. Also it would benefit no one on this forum if I were to reveal my name as I am not acquainted/associated with anyone on here, I'm just part time player with a love for the game.
 My post was intended to get players and the community alike to address such issues as this, as I feel it's a detriment to the game that we all call ‘poker’.
 As stated in my first post I thought the game of poker was about SITUATIONS and the information and conclusions YOU YOURSELF extract from what YOUR opponents are feeding (or not) YOU.
  I for one am saddened by the fact that many people on here "would do the same thing", is this the new game of poker?? where NOT only are you playing your opponents but  ‘Team X’ is too?
 I am all for research on players before any tournament, but, I believe the information from past tournaments can only give you a general idea of the players you are up against. How do you know what MOOD your opponent is in today without getting on the felt with them?? In the end we're all human and free will rules, so however 'player X' played in one tournament doesn't equate to 'player X' playing every single tournament the same way, after all, poker is about SITUATIONS..
  The difference lies here, the information you're receiving from someone watching a live feed (be it time delayed or not) is that YOU get to know EXACTLY how your OPPONENT is playing and that you can always make that crucial fold knowing that you will be privy to that information later, in days gone by you had to PAY TO SEE or forever question yourself if you made the correct play, which as we all know can be a major turning point in any players tournament. (and very few players will change up their style within the half hour or so unless a major development takes place)
  I certainly don't want to see streaming stopped, I'd personally not rather see hole cards myself but what will be will be..
 And now to my real issue…
 Alex.. I'm not disputing the fact that you played well, not at all, may I congratulate you on your win and well played. My major issue is that you INTENTIONALLY set out exploit the fact it was being streamed. Whether you cheated or not, YOU still had the mentality to PREMEDITATE COLLUSION. The sad fact is you did it out in the open for the world to see via twitter...Well, barring some of your friends it seems..... Epic fail dude..
Thus you have my point of discussion… Where does a player draw the line?? Do we employ every exploit and trick in the book, e-book and non books there is to win?? or do we try promote the game as a SPORTING GENTLEMAN’S game and try assure those who want to join the poker community that it's not full of cheats and scam artists? After all, the money at stake is there to be won by the players participating who paid entry to play, no one else…  TY and GL all

Sorry Mr OP, where did he 'cheat'?

That's what you accused him of doing.  Are you going to retract that false accusation?

Weird paragraphing - tick
Seemingly random use of capital letters in the middle of sentence - tick
Bizarre accusations -tick
Unwilling to identify themselves - tick

Yes folks i think it is fair to say we have a troll.

Hi der!


(http://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/troll_web.jpg?w=640)

The thing is the issue is significant in terms of the future in poker. Like I said earlier poker is a game of information so any new info introduced into the current game from outside is important and should be discussed properly. But you made a ridic big fuck up with the way you presented your op and turned that issue into a slanderous attack on a regular individual. It is obv that you played in this event and saw yourself at a disadvantage, but rather than put the streaming format on the table to discuss you blamed and flamed another player for that disadvantage and now the debate has gone haywire and you can't get it back on track. It is the process you should have been pissed with. Thing is I do think you were at a disadvantage and that needs to be addressed by DTD imo. Are they happy to persist with a strat that makes the playing field less than level? You think random old guys in their 60's/70's have got a big rail of iphone streamers??

What's more as players we pay juice for a venue to facilitate a tournament but the venue/comp are putting more restrictions on how they will do this. It's like pay us to host the tournament and you must do things the way we want things done. Huh ok, but why are the players paying for the way the venue wants things done? Like Dubai says we are not paid to entertain others. Who would be happy to play online knowing 5 or 6 individuals are in a little room seeing everyone's cards? What if you refuse to show your hole cards at DTD are you seriously getting bumped from the tournament? What if everyone refuses? Tournament over? But you paid juice to play? What if I can get somebody in that room? Aren't I just taking "advantage of the situation" better than anyone else?

Would people be happy to see a friend of an oppo standing behind you looking at your cards if you had a guarantee no discussions till the break? So yeah lots of serious stuff to discuss but you fucked it all by calling a fellow member a cheat and now all you've got is peeps posting pics of trolls. Wp. Oh and I agree about the accusations of poor presentation and wording.

Can I just point out, players were requested to put their hole cards in a marked box on the table so that the cameras could view. Everyone seemed happy to do so, no one objected ..... Just seems the people pissed with it are the people that were watching??

h, seems to be the only person with doubts that actually played on the feature table and I hope I have reassured him with the questions he wanted answers too.

9BallCP - you are very silly.

Big yawn@no paras.

I think this is just a level, some parts of his english are atrocious and some are quite 'swallowed dictionary' type.

But overall yawnaments.

Wd alex and meh 2 all this.

Wow! Alex cheated to win?! Who knew!!!!!!

Do you really think poker players are happy to expose their hole cards during a live game? Even at a regular showdown it often turns into a right feckin drama with a stand off and one guy flips one card and then the other guy flips one. And that's at showdown when you must show. Next time you play and you fold a hand pls ask the other guy to show you his hand and see how readily he grants your request. The 30 mins live stream means you might as well just flip every hand over because the table is getting that info anyway. I wonder why people have never been keen to flip hands over during a game all this time? Either that info is very important or it isn't. Also not sure why you have to be seated at ft to have a valid opinion.

I don't think you listened to my point, players were requested to put their hole cards in a box, all did without question. I am not going to disqualify a player if they didn't want to put their cards in the box am I?

Of course anyone can have an opinion, I am just stating that no one who actually played on the stream expressed they had problem with it to me?

Can I also say that it was a lovely final to TD, no bullshit just poker.

When you requested their cooperation was it made explicitly clear that they could decline without penalty?

Exactly

Were they requested to, or were they told to?

If it's clear that you have the option to keep your hole cards to yourself then I think it's much less of an issue.



The example I was thinking of was people travelling from abroad aren't going to have a load of people on the rail to talk with at the break, which also works for most people who have travelled any distance, if you're not a tournament regular then you're not going to have much of a rail unless it's your local event.

Nope, didn't think it would be necessary as under what rule could I give them a penalty? As far as I was concerned it was advertised as a live stream so they were all happy entering that competition. I had no requests from any player to avoid that table.

Before they went on to the table I asked them " when you receive your cards could you place them in the box please so the camera can identify them?". No one said do I have to?

Saying that, I did see a dealer talk into the mic and then alter a players cards so they fitted into the box. I don't know what the crew said to the dealer as I was unfortunately not in the loop ( which I wasn't happy about lol). When the dealer went to correct the players cards the player himself corrected the cards to fit in box.

Some good points being raised now. I would wager that if I refused to show hole cards and that was deemed ok every single other player would snap refuse to do so as well. They don't want me having an advantage see? The reason people appeared happy was a) because it's a new thing to have down your local bricks and mortar so these issues haven't been explored properly b) People happy to make ft and more focussed on the $$ and the game not factors they can't control c) People thinking it's a level playing field cos all cards exposed. Yet afterwards when things are digested people can easily think wait a sec I went to Notts on my jack jones and that put me at a big disadvantage. So rather than say peeps were happy and no probs last time what do you think about next time?

I wouldn't have felt able to refuse given that - IMO - the TD has carte blanche to penalise players as they see fit. The fact that it was felt neccesary to have signs up warning that hole card cameras were going to be in use reinforces the view that opting out was not an option.

If I sit down and am asked to put my cards over the camera then I assume I haven't got any choice in the matter and I have to do it.

If I sit down and it's made clear that it's optional then I of course don't put my cards over the camera.

Hole cards on TV shows = good
Hole cards on live stream = very bad obviously

It wasn't optional at WSOP as the french guy in the main whinged that he wasn't going to and they said he'd get a penalty if he didn't.

Also, LOLz at OP, wpwp.

I am a TD my priority is the tournament, I don't organise or have anything to do with any companies decision to explore different areas of media. The media, however it is used is a secondary to the tournament. I do not have any power to control what the media want unless it interferes with the tournament. If they ask something and it is possible I will try and accommodate as long as it doesn't interfere. I have seen events where the media actually seem to run the tournament and what they say goes. IMO if a player does not wish his cards exposed then this should not be forced on to the player. However this was advertised as seeing live hole cards, so the players should already be aware of this. I say again though I will not/ would not penalise a players for not showing losing hole cards. AFAI am concerned,  technology in poker is all experimental and yes something's need to be discussed as to not infringe on the actual game. What those boundaries are need to be debated.

Needs love imo

9ballllllllllllllllll
corner pocket.

you've come across like a dick. no offence

Maybe dtd will make it clear next time that you have to show hole cards? Pretty sure Eric Seidel who hated show his cards, and still does, was made to show them to the camera.

Alex is no cheat for sure and chinese Frankie went out of his way to phone me this afternoon. First he complained he never had a piece of Alex and then told me all the feature table people were doing the same thing.

So how many of you guys would openly post on twitter / face book " Watch the stream and text me all significant hands / tendancies etc pls! Ty xxx ". Not saying i would not have sort advice about how players were playing but to do it in such an open/public manner is a bit naive to say the least.


The blog sponsor was the only person to respond to Alex's request and must have thought it a little out of order.
"No.That will stop streaming! Good luck, you won't need extra info.This time it's you."

Fair play to Alex as in the name of transparency he has left this on twitter for all to see, and if i can find it with all my skills then am pretty sure everyone else can see.

Alex is a winner and it is a sad state of affairs that winners have to deal with this sort of crap and any valid points 9ballcp may have are lost in the bullshit  in the majority  of the post.

And by the way i'm the Troll round here

To be honest I didn't like playing on the feature table and did tell Kev that I'd prefer not to (end of day two when he was TD not Rich).

I wasn't warned about any of the rules and procedures that went with it. It was only through rumours and hearsay that I knew hole cards were being streamed live with a 30 minute delay. I arrived at the table, looked at my cards and started thinking about what I was going to do. Then the dealer Pam (clearly getting instructions in her earpiece) says "Alex can you put your cards in the box", I comply. After a few seconds of thought "Can you separate the cards so there's a gap". It immediately flustered and annoyed me.

When another player got moved to the table, he raised his first hand, and during the hand was asked to give his name and chip count. At that stage of the tournament, I don't want to be answering any questions in the middle of a hand. The game was slowed down so much by all the little things that came with the TV production. Asking players to move their chips into specific positions, moving seats after a few emilinations, it's all just annoyed. Meanwhile on the other table they were getting far more hands in.

None of this is DTDs fault, it is the fault of the seemingly amateur production team.

Wrt the hole cards issue, I'd rather not share the info, but I think I'd take advantage and use the info better than my opponents so I don't mind too much. By that, I mean that as OP stated, I sort to gain all the possible info on my opponents and make adjustment accordingly.

Also, I think the exposure it gives for poker is GREAT. My family for instance loved watching it and I'm sure having the cards exposed added to that. It added to the experience massively for them. It's just not appealing for a lot of people to watch a stream without hole cards. The people it is appealing to, like George and some others who said they like it, are already into poker anyway.

Jase I did it in an open and public manner because to not do so implies that I'm being underhand. I knew the rules and knew I wasn't breaking them. Once we were told no phones at the feature table. I complied and did not use it once, so didn't get any info anyway.

i know this mate. Welcome to the world of a winners abuse (have you been nipped yet).

Whilst on the subject whilst at the 2009 wsop main event we had started the day and the feature table contained a chip stack that was not seated. An hour later mr Phil Ivey turns up and says he has been up playing cash most of the night and does not want to play the feature table. obv this annoys a few of the players already seated so he offers them their buy in back (and possibly a small%age of his winnings) and the whole table snap accepts. The tv production crew insists that he must play the tv table. "The hell i do " says Ivey and sure enough they bring in another table to be the feature table.

i didn't have doubts might be my post was worded badly sorry
to be clear i would happly play on a streamed table again
i wasn't concerned at the time
just think its worth a debate
it does bring another level into play if your aware that 30 mins later your hole cards and actions are seen by others
however i think its just another thing to factor in and think about the question for me is how i or others might  play differently
for info i don't think it affect the way i played
i think its unfortunate this thread was started in the manner it was as its interesting seeing others views on streaming 

That sure would have happened if it had been you that said that and not the Nr1 man in poker.

yes you are probably right but going one step further from Dubais thinking what would happed if at dtd we refused to play on the feature table. probably get anted away

[ ] everyone knows i would want to shy away from the spot light

Some really good points have come from an otherwise ridiculous post. This is why I prefer blonde to some other forums tbh

They have made it clear you don't have to. So I wont. If I didn't would you? The thing about the WSOP and Erik Seidel is good because the nutshell is everyone is starry-eyed and aspiring to be like a pro in the world series and so they just go along with things they see on the telly. But when it starts filtering down to a national level and then a local level with Grosvenor etc picking up the trend the live game of poker changes for local players most of whom are not Erik Seidel at the WSOP. However, there are loads of hit squads or w/e who can get themselves more ready in the future to exploit this info to the max. That puts your regular part-time recreational player who's not so well supported at a big handicap when they were already an underdog. I know the WSOP do it and think it is shit also but I think regional venues need to think seriously about whether they really want to replicate it locally and dillute poker down to a less skill more information level. I don't think the accusations of cheating are right thou and think Alex should just enjoy his win.

fyp

OP still a bellend imo

Was that you? If so... +1.

IMO given how everything was run, Alex did what anyone would do and try to get as much info as is available to everyone else, if that meant asking for live-feed info, so be it. Seems pretty clear not much if anything actually got passed on (and tbh, there wouldnt be a lot of info... it shouldnt pretty ldo from sitting at the table observing). I'm sure little bits of knowledge players didnt know got passed on to most/all players at the FT, but sounds like the TD did a good job of minimising the TV impact.

Personally wouldnt mind seeing a live-feed/slight-delayed-feed (possibly to stop the LIVE stream having JP Kelly saying 'this would be a terrible call' and having a rail screaming fold, coz the pro says so). If i were there I probably wouldnt be happy people seeing my plays (have any [ ]), but would think it would be good having a seperate archived commentry with hole-cards shown after the event.

Where the fuck did Frankie's post go and mine following it?  >:(

the OTT post and any that quoted it were removed

Frankie was PMed


The OP was also OTT, but whereas it would ordinarily be deleted it turned into such a good debate that it was left for context

There's no need to turn to flaming to spoil that good debate at this stage

Sigh.

<3 frankie

FYP :)UP

these mods are getting too trigger happy with the delete button if yyou ask me....some of us think Frankie is a guru and want to hear what he has to say. so what if he said Alex is a Tosser, let us be the judge of what should and should not be removed. i will stand by frankie in the trenches and follow him over the top  all day long. OTT for the win ;)

we want justice for frankie is it

So it's ok to start a thread by flaming but not for someone to reply in kind???

Just lol

Geo

It says in the post you've quoted that the OP would ordinarily be deleted so, 'So it's ok to start a thread by flaming ...?'  - the answer would presumably be no.

I've clarified why the OP was up in my post. Open those eyes and read well, thanks

Why are you telling me what it says in the post? I can read well enough for myself.

If the answer is no, why was the opening post left up? Are we now saying Lord Tightness and his merry men now have psychic powers and know which way a thread is going to go, so therefore a flaming post which they can see will produce a good debate will be left?

Geo

Read my reply and stop being a twat like your monkeys

Geo

By the time I saw the thread (presumably the first mod to see it), the debate was excellent and thus the thread was left up.

that doesn't provide a licence to then send the thread down flaming avenues at a later point

We all know the OP was expressed inappropriately, but what followed was a good discussion
 
Still Geo it provided you with your 47th chance to have a pop at the mods these last few months, so it served some use.

Evidence of 47 posts having a pop at mods please

Geo

i can find plenty, send me the right email address and you'll get them

fml. i aint the biggest Troll or even biggest headache you have, must try harder :)

Nah, I appear to have overestimated. I need to apologise to Geo, his bout of mardiness was longer ago than I remembered. Sorry.

Still, I did explain why the OP was left up, when ordinarily it wouldn't be.

You did have me doubting myself and I started going back through all my previous posts. Could only find the one about removing a thread due to rumour and specualtion then posting something I deemed having been done in the same manner.

I only went back to January mind you  ;)

Geo

And for the record, the monkeys I refer to are not the other mods, I have no issues with them. It's the ones who are all too quick to jump on in defense of the mods, rather than let the ones who made the decisions reply.

Geo

The evidence would suggest otherwise.

Merely understanding each word isn't really a good definition of reading well.

Every other person who read that post could work out contextually that it meant the debate was already underway when a mod got to it.

Are you the only one too dense to realise this? Or were you just being mardily argumentative for the sake of it?

New thread shouldve been started imo, having this at the top of the news feed still is, well, regretful to say the least.

I often wonder how people get so excited on an internet forum...

lets all calm down.

In light of recent events I think this man should have the call really. Shame to spoil his moment of good fortune.

I think they get upset or excited about something in real life, the internet becomes a good place to vent

Pity this thread disintegrated really, was a good debate.

The team involved with the streaming/cards/tables were all from Germany, so I don't think they're related to the guys that Caroline was talking about and also don't think they'd know anybody playing that they would collude with.

Just a few things from the weekend from my perspective that were raised here:

1. Hole card commentary live. The commentators were in a room in the cashier area of the DTD building. As anybody involved in casinos can tell you, that is the HARDEST place to gain access to in the whole building. No way in hell was JP Kelly getting out to tell the rail what so-and-so had. On top of that, he was supervised by 3 people at all times. Doubt he's slipping his phone out to make a quick text.

2. One player, who was not the winner, took a phone call during the final table FFS. Thankfully it was before the stream had started. I believe Mitch put it best though "You gonna lock us all in a cage during the breaks as well?"

3. Can also confirm that Alex didn't use his phone once told not to.

One thing I do disagree with was that the TV table got the same number of hands. I thought it was slower for a few reasons, most notably that dealer changes took longer so the dealers could swop mics, and also that the production team were talking to the dealers. I know one thing that pissed me off (and I wasn't even playing lol) was that dealers on the feature table were having to announce all action to the production team. A dealer also said that they weren't happy with the special cards used as they were hard to shuffle and took longer.

As an observer, I'd love to watch something like this. Just not live, I don't think it works properly unless it's actually live rather than 30 min delay because of text updates.

As an updater, it was a massive pain in the backside as it affected all tables. I was having to check that a person I was updating on hadn't been moved to/from the feature table for fear of spoilers on Day 2, which is not something I should be doing. With Twitter et al, even if we didn't have text updates it's pretty impossible to avoid spoilers. I struggle to get my posts out sometimes before people have tweeted them which is annoying, so a 30min stream delay has no chance.

1. Hole card commentary live. The commentators were in a room in the cashier area of the DTD building. As anybody involved in casinos can tell you, that is the HARDEST place to gain access to in the whole building. No way in hell was JP Kelly getting out to tell the rail what so-and-so had. On top of that, he was supervised by 3 people at all times. Doubt he's slipping his phone out to make a quick text.

You only need to plant a mic in the commentary booth a few days before kick off to make the above irrelevant. Let's try and stay one step ahead of grimtown boys.

Thread title changed

Lets concentrate on the good debate about the hole cards/live feed etc please, thanks

GL getting into the cashier area of a casino/poker club. Let me know how that goes for you, yeah? No way am I risking that just in case I make the FT of a 3 day event.

Can't OP at least be edited Tighty?

I reckon a cashier has got a good chance of getting into the cashier area bud

I also reckon that if I paid a cashier to slip a mic into an area with a rather large amount of CCTV, the amount of money they would require would not be worth it as I'd probably have to win the tournament every time to cover my bills, so the one time I don't, I'm royally fucked.

Everyone knows its bollocks Alex, been rebutted a lot on this thread. I will remove a few words if you like

So are you saying there is no risk? Or are you agreeing with me that there is risk. I've seen people go to all sorts of elaborate lengths for a fraction of the money on that table. Considering that money is yours as a player why are you entertaining any risk at all?

Was this done with the permission of the original poster?

No. Thanks for mentioning it though  :D

trying to keep a good thread on track here!

Just the C word is a bit ott imo

Tighty what do you think about hole cards being shown live?  For or against?

Can't see any reason to show them to be honest, dubai made a good point IMO about the players being there to play and aren't getting paid to give away a huge amount of info for free.  

edit - terrible English

I am a huge fan of live streams in general, they help promote an event, and by extension a venue, massively

I am not as yet convinced that the advantage that hole card technology confers to the viewing audience outweighs the downside to the players, which is Dubai's point. I am not so exercised by the risks of collusion, which many seem to be, having watched the live stream of Big Game 2 in operation and seeing the security that commentary room had around it

What was that... calling station  ;)

I tend to agree TightEnd.  Not sure what to do now.  Maybe call you a **** or something?

Thread is becoming pretty ridic.

Name something that there is no risk in doing.

As it happens, Tighty has already posted in much better terms than I could my views on collusion.

People who study the game, play thousands of hands, and use online poker forums like you guys make up the top % of poker players in this country. But the vast majority of poker players are part-time and work in a fish shop or drive taxis. You organised and switched on people itt have already said you should and would take full advantage of the info on offer if you can, and no doubt some will seek to do so properly in the future. The collusion issue and security thing isn't the major issue anyway. The most important issue is the customer experience. I can tell you as a recreational player if I finished work and drove to DTD on my own and invested a few days playing hard in this event I would be feelin good about making the FT. But every break when I see my full-time oppos and their mates huddling up to discuss how I play I wouldn't be happy and would feel disadvantaged.

Especially because I wouldn't have planned to access that info (like every other recreational player in the room). It's all very well if the advantage runs in your favour like it would for the top % but the majority would feel disadvantaged. Lots wont have a clue about live streaming and internet stuff, they'll only know that you came back from the break with info about their hands and will feel at a disadvantage. Considering we are already at a disadvantage any measure which widens the gap or even appears to widen the gap in inexperienced players eyes is a bad thing. I know op made a fuck up but no doubt he was one such player who felt disadvantaged and whilst he didn't express himself very well he did feel the emotion I describe. A measure that alienates the majority of less skillful players benefits poker how? It's easy to say don't come if you don't like it but if this becomes norm in other casinos then where would fish play and feel comfortable?

And yeah I don't trust some Germans in a booth or whatever in Nottingham. Why should I? I've already trusted honey monster Lederer with my dollar this year.

Richard "dik" has just given me a one round penalty from this bowl freeze at DTD. Its an absolute farce and renders all his previous points nonsensical and invalid imo.

what happened?

Caught using my phone to get info from the live stream.

whats wrong with that, isnt that the reason for the live stream to give info to everybody?

I went POWER CRAZYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

I thought you must have done the old "raise... I mean call" with the nuts.

Waiting to be sued .....

I think if this thread proves 1 thing it shows that Mantis will think of some ridiculous idea to get around any situation.  Im half expecting his next "what if" to be something along the lines of using the Bill and Ted time travelling phone booth to go back in time to plant everything required to fully cheat and see the hole cards in real time.

Hi All

Interesting thread.

Just thought i would give my opinion.

Alex had a few rallers throughout the final, this included the likes of James Keys, Keith Johnson and Nick Hicks, all excellent players. I have no doubt whatsoever any advice they could give him at a break eg try limping when heads up would be far more valuable than any information relating to a hand played 30 minutes before. These guys may have collectively spotted a " tell " on a player for example.

Breaks were every 2 hours so with the 30 minute delay the only relevent hands could be those taking place 30 minutes earlier as anything prior to that the table dynamics would have changed considerably, eg a player has been knocked out changing your position on the table, stack sizes have changed, blinds have increased etc.

I did at least 2 hours commenatary, during that time i didn't need to see hole cards to know if a player was tight, was liable to fold his blinds, was only trying to ladder or was the most aggressive player on the table. I also saw that as you would expect the dynamics of the table changed as it became short handed and the quality of play meant a blind may be defended with A5s then the same hand would be folded in the cut off, in other words the players adapted and played big pairs and took opportunities to raise differently depending on stack size, position etc, how they played a hand 30 minutes or 1 hour before was irrelevant and anyone who thought that knowing that a player bluffed during a certain hand was goimg to help them make a decision later would have been disappointed.

A standard raise was nearly always a min raise so no information there, you can pick up a lot more from the rail watching to see how a player bets, whether he cuts the chips down or stacks them up, how he sits in his chair after making the bet, whether his pulse is visible, does he start talking, is his leg bobbing up and down or stopped when it normally is, does he stare at the flop when he has missed, glanced down at his chips prior to betting, ask a question before raising etc etc.

So, in my opinion, being able to access information from the stream and know whether you made a good laydown or not 30 minutes later is not going to help you as a poker game is fluid, however having extra sets of knowledgable eyes gaining information and imparting this during a break is an advantage but surely in every sport this is what happens ? Managers, coaches looking for weaknesses in their opponents to exploit.

Discuss.

Cheers

ACES

Alex is clearly cheating and, at the very least, hugely advantaged by having such a rail, amateurs like Mantis will be put off travelling to a tournament and getting to day 3, just to go up against someone like Alex with a rail of quality players and being able to talk to them on breaks while he is on his "Jack Jones" with no rail, as are other amateur players or players that travelled from afar.  I think its clear that in future at these tournaments and tournaments at all levels, for the sake of poker, having friends should be banned! Having those friends on the rail should be banned! and being able to talk to them on breaks should absolutely be banned at all costs!!!!

Cos it's not a funny joke.

It's one of the worst things to be accused of in this business. Even if everyone who's responded knows it's a joke, there's still people that'll stumble across posts like that, or people will overhear the joke being repeated (it's become an in-joke now unfortunately) that will then have that word associated with me.

I take almost all banter in my stride, you know that, but I really don't find this one funny.

Sorry to be a poof.

So you wouldn't be against showing the delayed feed on the screens in the club?

Very good.

Feed shown on screens in the club gives everone equal access to the info so this would be fine right?

I once had to bug my office and my buddy who works in surveillance put it in a plug socket. Totally invisible and bingo I could hear everything and could access it at any time. In a feckin plug socket. Perhaps I am paranoid cos of this experience but I don't think such technology is like a time machine Boba. It's not lol ridic that people bug rooms when there's info they want in there. Why else would you bug a room? No idea why commentary has to be live.

Sorry Simon but your post about what makes a good poker player from your point of view is pretty nuts. You are addressing people as a poker player rather than as the host of a venue. Stelios from the fish bar sits back down after the break and another player says I know you had K-K that last hand you fish. Stelios is real unhappy cos he doesn't want his oppos in the current game knowing that sort of stuff. Your answer to him is a good player can pick up tells and stuff if they pay attention and that you thought it was obv he had K-K anyway without seeing his cards. Don't get how you've addressed your customer's unhappiness with the situation really.

Boba, are you happy to show your cards if I don't?

Can Simon confirm to members that you don't have to show if you don't want to. If I can get that confirmation I don't need to bother arguing any more anyways.

After that win you're not allowed to not enjoy everything for about 2 weeks or until the next time you get Mitch'd in a cash game.

Anyway, I've deleted the joke.

The majority of players at DTD own fish & chip shops.

Fml has Cos said something funny and it's been deleted.

But Simon when there was 5 or 6 left in the comp, a few people were watching the stream on a laptop in the VIP room and I was also in that room you made me leave. Why was that a problem?

Even at the time it was made pretty clear the main reason was for appearance's sake.

Have to say I've not agreed with a post as much as Simon's for a very long time. Knowing your opponent's cards in a certain spot 30 mins ago is borderline useless (although admittedly interesting) in a live game, that spot will never arise again.

The idea of people bugging the cashier in DTD is just lol. You were pretty sensible itt for a while Mantis, more so than anyone else for the first 10 pages or so. Forget the Spooks stuff and get back to the poker plz

Also the comment a standard raise was a min raise at the table is purely results orientated because that's just how the game panned out. Let's look at a different scenario. Stelios from the chippy has only played 6 hands since the FT started. He raised 3xbb with weak hands and 2xbb with strong hands but didn't showdown a hand. After the break the other players know for a fact he raises 2xbb with strong hands whereas before the break they could only guess what a raise with 2xbb meant. And they would need to pay to get any further info on the subject. Sure, that is the most basic eg I could think of, and Stelios might be a twat for his crude bet-sizing tells, but it could easily get more complex. For instance player A leans back when he's got it. Don't understand why the time delay makes that info less than relevant in the current game.

Simon, you make it to the FT of a WSOP event. You are no longer one of the better players at the table and look around to see world class pros so you know you need to conceal every bit of info from them to have a chance. You are told that the pros can access your hole card info during breaks but you will not have a chance to see theirs. Why are you saying you would be happy to concede that advantage? Would you really be stating that because poker is fluid your are fine to go ahead with that arrangement?

And sigh James, as I've said many times it's information introduced externally into a current game that is my main point. As well as how lesser players will feel disadvantaged by it. I mean people are now trying to say information isn't important in poker. The security issue is like I said a much lesser consideration. But thanks for coming into the debate on the sensible stuff and offering your view at that pont. You and Bobba sure picked the important stuff to comment on, wp.

I'm not going to argue that this has zero impact on the game, just that I think that the impact is much smaller than you are making out and I think that it's worth making that tiny change so that we can have something more interesting for railers.

Maybe if Stelios was thinking this hard about what information the other players were getting in the breaks, he wouldn't lean back in his chair whenever he had the nuts, or he would think to also lean back when he's bluffing?

Comes back to Dubai's point though - the railers aren't contributing to the prize fund so why should players pander to their perceived wishes?

Also while I concede the bugging issue is a trifle MI5 I do think security is a negative issue with the live commentary. I'm still waiting for the other side of the debate to rattle of the positives of the live commentary for us players thou. Just saying lol doesn't win the debate unfortunately.

Again James, as a top player you have just followed Simon's lead by saying worse players should buck their ideas up. As a venue DTD should be concerned about how 90% of their players who aren't on the ball are going to feel rather than how you feel. It's very condescending to look down from the top and chastise lesser players for being bad but don't get how that solves the problems I'm raising. But anyway, you agree it impacts the game. So why are you so happy to impact the game? What are the advantages to you again and poker players generally? If you rattle off all the pros you might be able to convince me why it's a good thing for Stelios, the average player.

The live streamers COULD theoretically contribute to prize funds at a later date, I assume this is what DTD is aiming for.

few questions /  points
we do not know do we that op actually played this  ?
we don't know if he did play it if he is an average player or poker wizard who forgot his wand
maybe Stelios, the average player might want to see himself on a live stream tell friends to tune in

"Everyone will be famous for 15 minutes."
Andy Warhol


i consider myself an average player and spent some time on feature table so am interested
in whether or not captured stream  will be published (UN edited ) as would like to review own body language bet sizing etc.....

i liked you style and game. but this day and age thats pretty much a bad thing ;)

This is still troubling me cos I thought about it and still don't understand. First though two things that are important so there's no bad feeling and I get some good answers:

1. DTD is clearly the best poker club in the business. Everyone should play there.

2. Alex is obv a decent young lad and thoroughly deserves his win. Wp Sir.

On with the poker and just poker and I will use myself in this eg so nobody is offended by another example that might be about them. I tuned into the live feed and watched it for about an hour and thought it was great. My motivation to watch was purely entertainment because I had no vested interest in the final. I thought it was a good idea and enjoyed it as a neutral. But let's say I do have a friend in the final. My best mate Gareth has been mentioning he might give some of these comps a bash and offered me a piece recently, so let's put him at that final. Now my motivation to watch the stream would change because hey my mate who I've got a piece of is at that final. I would prob chill on my sofa and watch the whole thing.

My strength in poker from the start was behavioural tells. Behavioural tells is quite a shit best skill to have cos it's useless when playing online. But I wanted to develop those skills and I read all the books and learnt all about it. After a lot of study into behavioural tells my conclusion was they are useless in tournaments. You need a base level behaviour to compare new behaviour to and it takes a lot of time to get that sort of info. If you don't see your oppo's hand you can't attribute behaviour to strength or weakness and in a comp you wont get to see enough hands before the table breaks. So yeah useless. But if you play cash with the same people over and over you'd be stupid not to think about tells. There's people in the casino who we know have tells cos we learn about them over time.

So anyway back to Gareth. Gareth is a good player but refuses to believe he has a single tell (even though he has many) so doesn't pay much attention to that sort of thing at the table. He needn't worry thou because I'm paying attention for him. And I've got a better seat for that purpose. With all the cards on display it would make the process a lot quicker. Our friend Stelios could be a hive of activity. When Gareth calls me at the break to check in I will obv tell him what I've noticed. Now here's the thing. When I impart that info into the game Gareth's equity in the comp rises. Eg Gareth could knock Stelios out with that info. I concede the impact wont be major, but there will deffo be an increase in equity if he gets useful info he can't possibly have got otherwise. Let's say it increases his chances by just 1%.

What I don't understand is what business is it of some guy lounging on his sofa in Birmingham to interfere with the equity distribution of a poker tournament in Nottingham? The poker tournament you paid into. What I really don't understand is why are you guys happy to give my mate Gareth some of your equity when he hasn't done one thing himself to earn it? I know I mess around on here but in all seriousness I play the game fairly and love poker. If I made the FT and looked around at some of the better players on here I would be at a disadvantage for sure. But I'd play you guys as hard as I could and you'd have to fight me all the way for every scrap of equity. But you guys are ok giving my mate Gareth some of your equity for free. I don't get it.

You can apply it to anyone at the FT because everyone will have their own supporters. Hence players like Stelios who don't acquire any info will see the biggest shift of equity away from them towards the organised people who do. It doesn't matter that the % shift is small cos why a % shift at all? I don't understand why people are in favour of this and think it contaminates poker a little bit. This is my first 100% serious post. The only answer so far is that if you were at the FT you would give equity away to my mate Gareth so some railers might play next time.

People gain information all the time during comps that could see their equity in a comp rise. What about if Gareth rings you in the break and tells you who's on his table. You say "I know him, he has x tell". Boom - his equity gies up.

This.

Mantis it doesnt matter what long winded story you come up with, its nothing that couldnt also be taken advantage of by other players at the table.  For all we know everyone at the final could have a behavioral expert at home calling them with anything they pick up.

What is the difference between your example and the following scenario.  Same final table but no live stream.  Gareth has been opening pots at the final at Matt Perrins has been shoving on Gareth forcing folds.  The updates have mentioned 2 or 3 hands like this.  On the break, Gareth phones his behavioral expert, who is also a good overall player and has experience playing with Perrins (using him as a random example).  The friend advises changing his opening range in certain positions to "x" and, given his experience of playing against Perrins, thinks his shove range will be "y" so Gareths calling range should be "z".  Gareth now has an opening range and a calling range that will increase his chances at the final that he didnt work out himself but given to him by some guy lounging on his sofa in Birmingham.

What is the difference?  Is this also wrong?  Does this mean there should be a ban on online updates that even describe the action or a ban on players speaking to anyone on breaks?

The point is, players can gain advantages through a variety of situations.  Online streaming may add to the possible situations, but like every other situation it is an equal playing field in that everyone has access to the same information and an advantage is gained by the person who figures out how to use that information best.

Bobs, would you be happy if the delayed stream was shown on the screens in the club? Would you be happy if the delay was 15 minutes? 5?

The whole crux is the hole cards. Stream what you like without them. The argument that Alex's Mum prefers it that way and should therefore be embraced and accepted  is ridiculous.

Well I think it has to be at least 30 minutes but with a reasonable delay it wouldnt bother me.

Perhaps I'm destined not to understand this Alex. When I sit down to play poker it's my job to fight you hard and not give you anything right? If you ring someone at the break who knows me then sure your equity will rise a little. But I can't do one thing about that and anyway it's just history from previous games. What I can do something about is the glut of currrent and relevant info being broadcast from the current game to said friend by simply not putting my cards over the window. People are saying that they will obv put their cards over the window and leak equity but I don't know why. So some railers can play next time?? I would like 1st prize instead pls.

As above, as a player you can't control anything in the eg you offer.

How does Stelios have equal access when he doesn't have internet access nor do his friends who are all old and confused.

Feckin love your last line bud. Whoever has the best external methods of exploiting this info will end up with the best advantage. Exactly.

Sorry about being long winded Boba.

Less long winded version - it's not an equal playing field

Getting silly now....draw the line under this one perhaps?

That depends, did you use your new iPad to post that?

He's replied to you...in another thread as it happens.  Quite impressed with his ability to get sidetracked yet stay focused simultaneously.  lol

hope every time you look at the iPad you think not about it's shiny white casing or incredible features, but of the skulduggery and deception you used to acquire it and may it leave the burning scars of dishonesty wherever you take it.

rotflmfao

OMG!!!  +1  WP Sir   ;applause; ;hattip;

I so wan to join in this but I think Alex has taken enough now.

Word of advice mate. If you want people to stop doing something then the last thing you do is ask em to draw a line under it. Lol

Lol just realised where all this came from. I meant draw the line under this debate itt, as all these scenarios with Gareth, Stelios, my mother etc...it was getting silly imo.

i am finshed with it i think

Ethics:
I dont think there is any issue good players will use any thing that may give them an advantage no matter how big or small whether that is huds for on line play or pha on forums or video training sites ,mentoring , coaching discussing hands with friends so if willing to put effort in gl to them
Considerations:
I think any info from delayed live feed (without showing hole cards) is negated some what by time delay
Showing of hole cards does make the feed more interesting for most viewers but potentially creates more possibility to exploit
players tenancies ( so a negative for players unless you change and adapt )

Personally i think if there is an option to not comply with showing  hole cards this i would chose if mandatory to show then i will still play any way

Finally thank you to Mantis  as comments have been interesting

 /:-| move along now folks. lets find someone else to take the piss out of

A common situation cropped up last night that reminded me of this thread.

Half way thru the night my table broke and my new seat was directly to the left of my mate Gareth I told you about, and this turned into great fun and japes. As we are getting down to the nitty gritty of the comp Gareth played a big pot with a serious looking young dude in seat 3. The board ran out broadway hearts and Gareth took the pot away on the river when his oppo who bet flop/turn check sigh-folded the river. As Gaz is mucking he can't resist showing me the  6c 7c. Ha ha Gareth you are tez. But this seemed to be a big problem for the very serious people at our table. Everybody wanted to see his cards. But Gareth said nah lads and slowly pushed his cards to the muck. People started getting excited and the kid in seat 3 who hadn't said a word all night screamed in a high pitch voice SHOW ONE SHOW ALL and this mantra was repeated about one hundred times by players in various states of agitation. lol. The dealer then squashed Gareth's hand into the felt as it approached the muck preveneting it moving any further. Ha ha ha. The other players were like chimpanzee's at this point bouncing up and down on their knuckles chattering their teeth and shouting show one show all. Gareth knows he has to show and is just having jokes so flips his "flush". The kid in seat 3 who folded his hand announces he KNEW Gareth was bluffing. Ha ha, just a normal common scene in live poker.

Anyway, why can't Gareth show just me his hand? What's wrong with these people? Why did they get so fecking agitated about just me seeing? It's just one hand and it's in the history books now. I don't get it. Gareth could have whispered in my ear what he had and I would have the same info. But cos he showed me everyone must see. Strange rule really.

Seriously?  How is it the same situation?  BTW - Players who try to show their hand to just their friends and then muck are beyond annoying

sorry for being long-winded George

I'm not going to just give you the answer Boba. I want you to work it out for yourself.

But I do agree Gareth is beyond annoying.

Its not the same situation at all mantis and your friend sounds equally toolish as those you describe.

Mantis are they planning on introducing live streaming in the 10 rebuy in Walsall?

In seriousness Gareth isn't a tool mate. The reason he did that whole pantomine was to garner the very serious reaction he got from the very serious players at the table. Seat 3 has just been staring and shuffling chips all moody and it was fitting that he got his chain pulled like that. Happy for you to explain why it's so very different thou.

Its different because you're allowed to shuffle chips and be moody at the table.

You're not allowed to show one person your cards and not everyone.

I don't see why he felt the need to yank anyone's chain.

Why aren't you allowed to show just one person your cards?

I make him yank chains and am generally a bad influence on him. We shouldn't be doing it though especially with people so serious as it's wrong and not funny.

So on the one hand you're saying it's unfair that Stelios has no access to the net and can't get the same info as other players and on the other you're saying cos you and Gareth are mates he should be able to give you info on his hand but no one else at the table?

What's the difference between 2 out of 9 players having access to all the hands being played via friends watching online and 2 players showing each other only their hands but not anyone else?

Or are we saying that it's wrong to do the latter when it's easy to open your hand up and show everyone? Yet if you don't have access to the live feed and friends who are able to watch it and report back to you, then it's tough shit?

Yeah I think I should deffo be able to see Gareth's hand when nobody else can. You see I don't need to see hole cards to know if a player is tight, is liable to fold his blinds, is only trying to ladder or is the most aggressive player on the table. Also as you would expect the dynamics of the table changed as it became short handed and the quality of play meant a blind may be defended with A5s then the same hand would be folded in the cut off, in other words the players adapted and played big pairs and took opportunities to raise differently depending on stack size, position etc, how they played a hand 30 minutes or 1 hour before was irrelevant and anyone who thought that knowing that a player bluffed during a certain hand was going to help them make a decision later would have been disappointed. You can pick up a lot more from watching to see how a player bets, whether he cuts the chips down or stacks them up, how he sits in his chair after making the bet, whether his pulse is visible, does he start talking, is his leg bobbing up and down or stopped when it normally is, does he stare at the flop when he has missed, glanced down at his chips prior to betting, ask a question before raising etc etc. So yeah I don't get the fuss about me seeing and not them, I mean Gareth's my friend so I should be allowed access to that info alone. Other people should get their own friends and be better prepared imo

Going to guess that this is a level but neverthless will bite.  The ability to see a players hole cards changes your opinion on the way a player plays from conjecture, albeit educated, to fact.  The knowledge in this situation that Gareth had bluffed on an all heart board is much different from THINKING he might be capable of the same move.  You having that difference in certainty is an advantage which it is unfair to have.

Yeah but in 30 mins time that info is borderline useless to the game anyway so people should settle down about it really

lol @now saying pretty much the opposite of what you started saying in this thread

I think boldie just got leveled :)

sure of it

sigh, happens all the time

This is whoosh tastic

wp M

 :) :)up

Suppose this requires bumping.