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Emotive subject as it is.  There are things that just don't add up.  I haven't seen much posted on here about it, not sure if there has been and its been removed if that is the case apologies in advance. 

The whole episode is a tragic but wtf were the parents thinking?

In what sense?

I assume, by letting her play outside at 19:30pm when it's dark.

Let's just hope they find her now, the not knowing has to be worse thing.

Fingers still crossed in hope.

Surely in this case the police should be allowed a pardon to torture the animal they have charged until he tells them where she is. Questioning has got nothing obviously.

This. 

I think the little girl also has special-needs even more reason why she should never have been allowed out at that time at her age. 

I would argue that things like this happened less when I was that age and by 7:30 - 8pm I would have been bathed and put to bed for the night. 

Obvs. now is not the time for an inquest into the parenting skills. 

I understand what your saying, and wouldn't be adverse to it if we knew he was definitely guilty.  But police in this country have a history of forcing convictions and many are unsafe. If we could be sure that the police were all squeaky clean, whiter than white etc then I would very much be in the "fuck your civil liberties" we have a crime to solve.  But take Hillsborough for example were there were systematic lies from the top all the way down to rank and file officers. 

I happen to know a few coppers and people who have fallen foul of the law and sometimes its difficult to tell who is who.

It looks 100% he is at the very least been involved with the kidnapping so for me, he should be tortured until the police get the info they need.

Ah, I did wonder where the World Jumping to Conclusions Championships were being held this year.

Your first post says wtf were the parents thinking, then you say, this is not the time to discuss their parenting skills?

So, the parents let their special needs child out out alone in the dark at 7.30pm. They deserve all they get.

I mean, why let the facts get in the way of a good story?

I haven't paid too much attention to the full story, but I thought it was 7pm? And she was with friends? Also, how many children across the UK play out at that time? It's just too easy to say the parents are to blame imo.

I'm amazed that the guy's vehicle seems to have disappeared with little/no mention on the news.

Also I don't think confessions obtained by torture are admissable as evidence.

Awful case for sure, but something's been bothering me about 'the vehicle'.  They kept going on about a white or light coloured vehicle.  Suddenly they arrest a guy and show us a photo of a dark blue one.  WTF?!  I'm sorry, but I don't know any child who would mistake light for dark.  They might get the rest of the details wrong, but that bit is surely straight forward?  It just doesn't make sense.

I never at any point suggested they deserved this.  

My initial thought when watching the TV coverage was wtf, that's why I wrote it like that.   I don't want this thread to be about judging the parents but ultimately they have a responsibility.  

I am going with what I have seen reported, it looks like this little girl was a fair distance from her home playing with these friends.  

Obviously the cops know more than what they are allowing into the public domain but for me there is something just not right with the whole situation.  

250m away.

Years ago during the holidays kids would be pushed out of the door in the morning and not be expected back before dinnertime - they'd get up to all sorts of mischief and there were just as many nonces around then (jingle jangle).

Why would your initial thought be wtf? Why would anyones first thought be wtf?

The point is none of us know what really happened or the cirumstances which led her parents to believe it safe outside for a 5 year old child. To a lot of people in this country, and others around the world, leaving your kids to play outside without adult supervision is/has become the norm. A lot of people are saying that you could in days gone by. What a load of tosh.
Unfortunately there are bad people in this world fortunately there are far more good people.

I for one don't think it's right but I'm not going to pass judgement on these poor people who are missing their dear child.

I hope they find her but the odds are stacked against it.

Thought he was innocent til proved guilty.

Enough high profile cases in the last few of years where police have arrested, named and charged the wrong person to prove that without doubt.

Torturing Colin Stagg, Chris Jeffries, the Guildford Four etc wouldn't have done much good apart from lower the UK to the levels of North Korea, Sudan and Uganda.

....and dont mention the Renault 5.

spot on

I said I never wanted this debate to be about the parenting atm but you seem intent on getting me to comment on it. 

I think it was wreckless, and irresponsible to leave a 5 year old out at that time of evening.  Even if she had been playing within the boundary of her own home and been abducted I would still question the parenting.  Do you remember Maddie McCann she was in her bed sleeping and not as far away from her parents.

Pretty sure if the mother was a single parent living in a rough housing estate in Manchester, London or Glasgow she wouldn't be afforded the same level of sympathy. 

I'd love to think this little girl will turn up safe and sound but that is looking increasingly unlikely.

If she was living in a rough housing estate in london, manchester or glasgow, then this probably wouldn't have happened.

The Maddy McCann thing is totallly different to this.

Easy to make quick judgements.

You can't live your life expecting terrible things to happen.

Millions of children have played outside their houses or down the street for hundreds of years and bad things have happened to an infinitely tiny proportion.

What sort of adult are you going to produce if you keep a child at home, under your total supervision for the first 16 years of their life?

Chompy?

The most tragic thing about this it was avoidable..

I'm sorry... 5 year old, dark no adult supervision = massive no

This is not a case of being over protective....  A 5 year old knows no fear and is naturally inquisitive.. Wandering off is highly likely...

I remember my heart being in my mouth the first time my 12 year old went to the shops with her mates..but I know there comes a time when you let the reins go slack as they grow and become independent..but a toddler ? No way

The day after it first happened I looked out the window at 7pm... It was pitch black.. I wouldn't let my 9 year old outside unsuperVised... You don't have to be draconian about.. My two played outside as toddlers at the bottom of the drive with their little friends but I was at the top of the drive with them in my sight at all times...

Too much ...? Maybe.. But you won't see me in tears on the telly wondeRing where my kid is because I couldn't be arsed to supervise them...

Mcanns.... Should have been prosecuted IMO... Not only a 4 year old left alone but two babies as well..that's neglect.. Apart from the fact it still stinks..

WRONG!

Ur saying if there's an adult present it still happens ?...

There was an adult present.

Of all te reports I've read no mention of an adult being present and when the police first spoke about the vehicle involved they were sceptical of the description because it came from a child... Reports say she was outside in the dark with friends unsupervised..if an adult present then I take everything back but as far as I know that's not correct

It may have been bad taste but it was a joke.
;whistle;

Lol u whooshed me..... It's weird I'm pretty laid back about things..sometimes a little too much but this particular subject actually brings forth a true emotion...

I do actually agree with you. My wife is a child counsellor and the shit what goes on is horrifying and we don't hear the half of it.

Meh.

I played on the streets and in the park unsupervised from the age of 5 or 6.

I certainly wasn't neglected by my parents! (If anything I was over protected)

My boy can and does play outside with his friends.

Giving kids freedom letting them reach their boundaries is part of them growing up imo.

Not a job I could do tbh..... Takes a special kind of person.... You probably couldn't make up half the horrors perpetrated on defenceless children.... Unfortunately we have always lived in a world with evil in it...

But I've seen so many examples of so called parents literally viewing their children as a pain in the arse inconvenience .... My youngest best friend is the sweetest bubbliest kid you could imagine..absolute sweet heart and I've taken her out on days out with us..she has cystic fibrosis and has treatment twice a day..although unless told u would never know...she's so full of energy it's unreal... What's her mother do..dump her on her kids nan fucks off shacks up with a dude who has a kid the same age and the has a baby with him... A Nd the cherry on the cake she picks up her step kid from the same school gate as her own daughter...and even sees her own daughter before wandering off holding the hand of the other kid... Woman's fucking scum in my eyes...

It's a gamble which you're willing to take and that's your prerogative. How ever slight the odds shit can happen and me personally I wouldn't gamble like that with my kids.

You let him play in the darkness at 5 alone?

Yeah think it's a bit short sighted to go with the it will never happen to me attitude...5 year olds don't even know what a boundary is and need more guidance than letting a 10 year old down the park playing footie with his mates

I really think your view is wrong here, the actual chance of something happening to a child playing in the street v the number of children playing in the street is so so small, that it probably isn't worth worrying about.

Probably higher odds of a child being killed in other ways, other than being swiped of a street.

Jeez vince seriously ? Yes the chance is thankfully small but is it a chance ur happy to take all because ur not willing to stand there and watch the kids play...I don't thinks so much the unsupervised bit but the time of night and how dark it was...kids of most ages should be inside safe let alone a 5 year old

I think the sicilian is spot on here. 

Proper supervision would have stopped this, no doubt about it.  That's  not to say supervision is the answer to everything.  I agree kids need to be allowed to grow up, the same as you need to let them be free around animals and let them get bumps and bruises but at 5 years of age when its pitch black outside there is no chance a 5 year old should be out playing with friends. 

Maybe I come form a different type of area than most on here and we are more conscious of whats going on outside out front doors in regards to the bad apples.  But regardless of where I lived, I would never let anyone that young out at that time of night. 

You know something I see regular... Ten or eleven year olds walking the street midnight and later on school nights... Just beggars belief tbh....

If you think that's a gamble, how do you let your kids go to school?

A lot more chance of being "interfered with" by a paedo at school than being snatched off the street imo.

The reason these stories get such huge publicity is they are so rare.

But the media saturation and scare stories make people think they are much more common than they actually are.

Children are loads more likely to be abused, harmed or murdered by family members than strangers.

I would be far more worried that Jake would be hit by a car than snatched by a stranger.

Think the crux is this question :

Keith would YOU  let your 5 old son outside unsupeRvised in the pitch black?

Must be a lot of bad parents in Mychanlleth then, or are you a bad parent if a sick fkr decides to abduct your child and no one else's, It's a small town with virtually no crime, where everyone knows each other, there was no risk, other than a one in a million chance of this happening.

ffs, she wasn't out unspervised, like you're making out. She was playing with friends. Reports I have read tonight, say that her friends told her not to go in the car, she said it's ok, she knows him. The guy arrested is well known in the area. And has two children living on the same estate. Which kinda kills you're argument Deano.

Define unsupervised.

I mean, I wouldn't let him go somewhere he didn't know and I would check on him periodically.

But i would be happy not watching him every moment.

And I don't think 7pm in the first week of October is "pitch black"

it is in London, Dean hasn't taken into acct it's prob lighter in Wales, or that it could have been a well light area they were playing in. Everything is pitch black & white to him :)

This.

Crimes like this are far far more likely to committed by someone the child knows.

A stranger snatching a child off the street is many times less likely.

Dean, did/do you let your children go and play at friends houses?

The sad fact is a child is far more at risk in this "safe" environment than in the situations where April Jones and Maddie McCann were taken.

Camel quotes my post, and posts 'this'

Life is good.

Lol now other kids get to look after the kid...? Supervised means by an adult not another 5  year old...

So ur 5 and another kid tells you not to do something so you obey... If an adults there the snatch isn't attempted and the kid might do as it's told....

However the other question which is quite likely is was this planned and a opportunity being waited on...? This obv would mean it was just a matter of time.... Although the dude has five or six kids? Two at the same school?  Isn't it unusual for this type to be a paedo..is their history of him interfering with his own? Which would be logical..obv way more to this than reported..but my general point is a 5 year old should not be allowed out without an adult that time of night

Huge sigh at this post. What you are saying about an adult should be there is just ridiculous.

Doubt I'm gonna meet you for lunch this week if you carry on like this.

You're right Keith the dangers of this type of abuse are often closer to home the real point I'm making is I don't think a child that young should be out that late without an adult..I think that's more common sense than fearful of every million to one chance...tbh I was in bed way before that when I was 5 and so were my two kids, it's embedded in my psyche actually ..tucked up in bed watched rhubarb and custard.. On about 5.45 i think lights off kip time...ahhh to be young.

So you let a 5 year old roam the streets at night without the supervision of an adult?  

I don't know were the camel lives but were I am it was pitch black at 6:30 last week.

I'm also hearing reports this evening that within a 5 mile radius of my house there have been 3 reported abductions of kids.  Ages unconfirmed but the police are apparently aware of the situation, so not as uncommon as some in this thread would have us believe.  

FYP

Dunno what's so ridic about 5 year olds being supervised in the dark..and according to the meteorological society sunset last Monday in that area was 18.49...

does that mean it was dark?

He wouldn't be "roaming the streets".

He would be playing in area he knows well and with kids he knows.

And a great big WTF to the bolded bit.

Pretty much ... No sun usually = pretty dark

Vinny turning down food?

Shit just got real.

My kids walk to school now, my son is 12 and my daughter 16. Did I let them walk to school when they were 5 of course I fucking didn't. Did I let them play 200yds from my house at 5 years old at 19:00 in October of course I fucking didn't. Why not? Because I want my kids to be safe. Would I have let them out at 5 years old with other children night or day? Of course I fucking wouldn't. Why not? Because I want my children to be safe.

I am not an over protective parent, I'm just there for them when they need it most.

If a responsible adult was watching over those children April would not have been taken. I agree it's a very rare occurrence but it still happens. A parent has responsibilities in insuring harm doesn't come to their children, it shouldn't be left to other children.

Yes and most of these types of crime are carried out by people known to them but if a responsible adult was there it wouldn't have happened.

There are risks everyday which we have to take, like crossing the road, riding a bike, climbing trees and these are acceptable because we try to teach our kids the best way to handle these situations. I taught both my kids to ride their bikes I didn't just leave them to it, I guided them supported them, held them, until they could stay upright on their own. With my guidance they did it safely.

I didn't want to get involved in this argument but felt compelled too. As I said earlier my wife has worked with children for the last 10 years a specialist counsellor. These stories are not as uncommon as you would like to think. She doesn't tell me the half it because of confidentiality but she needs support after the most horrendous cases.

Enough from me now. Each to their own.

Worst bluff his pulled all year and that's saying something

SO we have gone from pitch black to pretty dark. Not bad.

It's not dark at 7pm

When I was a kid, I used to spend 2 weeks every summer holiday at my Nan's.

Behind her house there was a huge park where the local kids played. It was surrounded on three sides by roads and one side by a row of terrace houses.

I used to play football outside until the very last of the daylight disappeared. No adults around, although various parents checked up on us at various times.

I certainly wasn't neglected.

Oh ffs guys...so ur all happy for your 5 old to be out of your sight  without another  adult that time of dusk/night/semi darkness/light of the moon ? Cmon ur kidding right? Are you fucking mental.. It comes down to common sense more than anything... Apart from the oh it's such a rare occurrence it couldn't possibly happen to my kid mentality..what about wandering off wandering in the road etc. Ur. 5 olds have massive self discipline and are not at all curious..

My toddler got seperated from me in a clothes shop for about 30 seconds once I was nearly sick...

If I was a toddler, and you were my dad, I'd disappear too, if you were buying of those ridic t-shirts you wear :)

You have said above that it comes down to common sense. Common sense sometimes allows for a 5 year old to be allowed out to play with friends. Unsupervised.

You'r obviously far too protective then, you will get used to it.

A: were u five
B: because nothing happened that makes it ok?
C: do you think there was more or less chance of something happening in the late 19th century :)

What an extraodinary thing to write down. Every time a child is abducted in this country it is quite understandably the lead story on national news for weeks. Three kids within 5 miles of your house? A very weird and disturbing claim.

Rather that than being on telly pleading for some nonce to bring my kid back

LOL. I didn't mean my 5 yearold travelled to school alone.

I meant he is more likely to be put in danger in school by a "trusted" person than snatched off the street.

In my area there was an attempted abduction of a 9 year old from a school playground..think u don't really hear about attempts

I think the first time I stayed there I was four. There was a group of maybe 15-20 kids aged from 4 to 12 who used to play together.

Yes, I think it was fine. In fact one the happiest memories of my childhood.

I'm not as old as Karabiner you know.

link?

Lol I'm a lot less spangly these days..unfortunately ur not less hoopy... How u can criticise anyone's dress sense is beyond me..the times a hobo has offered you change is unreal

As for my 5 year old.. I can honestly say never...

My childhood in Scotchland, was similar to Camel's. Different generation obv..

http://www.harlowstar.co.uk/News/Harlow-news/Police-drop-investigation-into-attempted-abduction-allegations-02102012.htm

Ok it turned out to be nothing...

Not trying to be funny, but I was same when my kids were young, you will see that you are being over protective, & as far as abductions go it's possibilty v's probability, so common sense wins, the chances of this happening in this town is so minute it's like being one outered 5 x on the trot.

lolz

Not so much the chance of being snatched as a five year old out unsupervised at that time..and I don't count a bunch of other 5 olds as supervision

There was never any danger of someone snatching you son believe me

im with keith here, childhood is all about exploration and fun im sure the parents thought that the place was 100% safe for their daughter to play. The fact these instances are the headline story and everyone remembers the children involved, proves the point how rare the instances are. It would be a real shame if parents started to mollycoddle kids and have them under big brother supervision 24 hours a day. 7pm at night is not the same everywhere.

I don't get the fuss about the dark? Are child abductors vampires?

I remember the Milly Dowler case. She was 13 and walking home after school in the afternoon sunshine yet got snatched clean off the street by Levi Bellfield. How many actual cases are there where toddlers have been snatched off the street at 7pm in small Welsh towns? So reckon governing your life to watch out for the bogeyman 24/7 is unrealistic. In fact in the April Jones case the victim wasn't snatched at all but was seemingly coerced into the car by somebody she knew. She could have been coerced into that car at any time of the day on any given day.

Not if she was being supervised by one of her parents.

So as parents we should follow our children around 7 days a week 24 hours a day? Trust no one but ourselves with them?

Your kids got no legs?

Meaning?

Can't believe ur all missing the point.. Point in question is would u let ur 5 year old child out without an adult in the near dark... Yes or no... Forget getting snatched etc...

In some situations, I think it is acceptable.

I suppose it's acceptable if you want to snatch a kid :)

Not sure of any figures but are the majority of these types of cases opportunist or premeditated?

It's an opinion... It's wrong but it's still an opinion... Some of you seem to think that a 5 year is a capable self sustaining being... It's not that's why your there to safeguard it from whatever danger or situation may befall it because by definition it cannot look free itself.. Can't even believe I'm having this conversation.. Just cos it walks and doesnt piss itself anymore you think it will be just fine looking after itself... U seem to make the same premise for a 5 year old as you do a 10 year old when the void is epic

Dean, would you let your 5 year old go round to a school friends to play?

Agree with this.
You can't blanket say you would never let your 5-y-o out of your sight when the sun goes in.
As a parent I reserve the right to use a bit of common sense.

Where I used to live, there were 5 or 6 kids that used to play in the street, almost every night Ages ranged from 4-9. They weren't constantly supervised. Is that really that wrong?

As long as I was comfortable with the parents and I was happy they would be adequately supervised.. And yes before u say I know there's always a possibility  someone there could interfere with them... But I want to get away from the paedo situation.. The only point I'm making is I don't think a child that age should be unsupervised..full stop

Massive difference between a 4 and 9 year old... U can't give the same freedom to each

Yes but the 9 yo can look after the 5yo lol

You would seriously leave ur 5 old unsupervised after dark ?

Well unless they are on a lead, then they are going to get out of your sight at times.  They just do.  

It's a sunny day we take little johnny to the park.. His 5... Take him to where the swings And slides are..it's sunny loads of people around loads of kids same age and older... Do we turn little johnny loose and fuck off to the cafe for half an hour ?

Yes kids do sometimes get get out of our site but negligently leaving them unsupervised is a different story. Just to clarify something this is about leaving a 5 yo unattended. 5 yo don't know what's good or bad for them.

I'm off to bed. Good luck Deano. We should open a crèche lol.

Dear lord some of these have kids as well

When I was at Hampton Court the other day in walked Henry VIII and Katherine of Aragon in full medieval costume. Was quite impressive sight and a few of us got out cameras. King Henry announced no photos could be taken because children were present. That rule of total lockdown certainly meant no indecent pictures of children could be taken and they were completely safe. Yet everyone was like meh Henry are you serious?

Doobs wins the thread.

What the McCann's did was a lot more questionable that what April Jones parents did.

Not because it's anything less than a ten million to one shot someone would break into their hotel room and steeal their child, but because if Maddie or one of the twins woke up and found no mummy or daddy about, they would naturally become extremely distressed.

It is impractical and unrealistic to say you'd supervise a 5 year old every minute they were outside the house. Kids do stuff. They explore and investigate. And run around.

I think if I lived in a city I'd be slightly less relaxed about Jake playing alone outside, but as it is, I'm happy.

I live in a cul-de-sac.
There are a group of kids who play together, on the road in front of our houses.
I have let my kids play out in the group, when the light is fading, from when they were as young as 5, without watching them every minute.

Some of the kids were a bit older (8 - 9).
I hadn't got a problem with this, and didn't feel it was bad parenting.

In my park example would anyone leave there kid ?

Lack of common sense ITT, to many generalisations.

Also remember James Bulger out shopping with his mum and Ben Needham playing in grandparents house in Kos. Neither toddler was out in the dark unsupervised but in the care of responsible adults in the daytime. So in reality very difficult to prevent a one in a million happening.

We have to sign permission forms every term to allow teachers to take pictures of the children during classtime.

Bit ridiculous imo

Think Dean was blocked from taking pictures of kids in a swimming pool.

Wots the difference between park playground surrounded by kids and you 50 foot away in the cafe having a cup of tea and fifty foot from your house surrounded by kids and you inside having a cup of tea ?

This is a different subject entirely and I agree is ridic... My eldest was playing the violin in a multi school concert...all the kids were in full uniform ... I was asked not to video it...ur fucking kidding right? Jeez...

Changing rooms actually

It's Daily Mail Britain.

Sledgehammer to break a hazelnut.

One out of 10,000 people taking pictures at the swimming pool might be doing it for dodgy purposes, but the 9,999 are denied innocent pleasure of taking a photo of their kid having fun.

We looked at 4 different primary schools before deciding which one to send Jake. Not one of them had a single male member of staff. Very sad, but understandable. The climate in Britain these days is such, that a man wanting to teach 6 year olds is immediately viewed with suspicion.

But it does mean the kids are completely safe. The same way supervising them 24/7 means they are completely safe. It's all about guarding against that one in a million chance right?

Mantis how can you compare the twonthere not even in the same universe.... Not being able to film your daughter in a violin recital is not the same as supervising your five year old

It is the same mentality of whether you want to allow a tiny % of bad people to govern how you live.

If I lived in a small welsh town population 2k the thought of paedos on the loose wouldn't govern how I lived and how I brought up my kids. I would educate and supervise where possible but perhaps on one occasion I might think my daughter playing out the front with a group was ok. I would think the risk of abduction is very slight just like the risk of people taking indecent photos at Hampton Court is very slight. Hence I think it is ok to allow both.

Nope  over zealous institutional scare mongering is not the same as how an individual chooses to bring up their child...please get away from the paedo aspect and concentrate on dealing with the point a 5 year old should not be unsupervised...

Agree with both sides but ultimately it comes down to the age ... FIVE years old, not yet at school.

When I heard the age my first thought was wtf they out for at anytime let alone 7 ...

I have five nieces and nephews between the ages of 3 and 9 and next door neighbours have three kids 4 - 9 who are always jumping over the fence to play in our garden. Cannot comprehend any of the 5/6 year olds being outside of the house without mum/dad/guardian/responsible 16+ year old playing with them.

This does change when the "outside" is in a quiet cul-de-sac with no traffic or other immediate danger though, but again if darkness is approaching they'd all have had dinner and be getting baths ready for bed.



Basically the point is she/them whoever are five years old, if a paedo/animal wants to kidnap a child they can quite easily abduct a 10 year old but we can all agree a 10 year old is fine to be kicking a football/riding his/her bike at the local park with the other children. It isn't the risk of them being snatched its them being five and unsafe being out unsupervised.

At what age do you draw the line to let kids play out and how far are boundaries set is the question. - If you trust the child's friends parents then of course can play at Billy's house at 5 but the adults arrange it and not the children and if Billy's house is outside of the cul de sac then they are dropped off and picked up.

Don't think it's my upbringing stall makes me think 5 yo is too young, I was always late in/moving my watch 10 mins slow or playing out half hour after it was dark, mum hated it dad would say let them have their fun not harming anyone, was encouraged to do the dangerous things - never had stabilisers on bike - is a picture of me at 7 years old 20m up a tree holding on with one arm - to if he hits you hit him twice as hard etc etc, far from Mollycoddled yet still loved immensely.



Might be mine and sicilian's perception of five year olds being so small, nieve and vulnerable compared to the view of those of the other view point.

Agree to disagree another similar point - at what age should children have mobile phones and using them when playing out. All a matter of opinion and parents best judge of their own kids, maturity and responsibility varies so greatly at all ages.



Rambled on iPad ridic tired so probably repeated and misspellings but 5 year olds too young to be playing outside unsupervised IMO


Lol cliffs:
5 year olds I know too young to be out
5 yo and 10 yo similar risk of abduction but ev1 agree 10yo fine to go play at park
Parents know their children best, some are less vulnerable to dangers outside at younger age than others
Not mollycoddled as a child but still 0 chance of being out unsupervised at age of 5

I think we now have a winner ITT. Well put LonohRay.

7pm is deemed socially unacceptable for a 5yr old to be outside, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

To judge parents who know they child and friends and area better than anyone is ridic IMO.
7 to one parent is another parents 5 or 9.

Something that has never settled with me is that he was known to the police and they were lookin for him from day 1?

Never read anything more on why he was known to the police? Seems my biggest concern- child missing oh let's go find mark!!?

This is actually quite a problem now - because of the rise of single parent families there are plenty of boys who grow up with no male influence in their life at all - at home and at school the only adults they have any stable influence from are women. How are they going to learn how to be men?

Gala?

a) You're mad
b) Please don't refer to children as 'it'. This is the preserve of mad people who are not as nice as you

A) agreed
B) I have total emotional detachment everything is it..how do you know im nice?

Hell no

TY...

tbh I am actually deeply concerned at some of the attitudes revealed in this thread, think some should rethink..

You're being obtuse Dean.

Everything isn't always black and white.

Ps, I don't know what obtuse means, I heard it on shawshank, and liked it.

You are right about something, so there is hope yet.
:)

I was reading a copy of The Sun the other day. On one page they had a story about how it's irresponsible parenting to not supervise your kids at all times. And on the next page they had a story about new Dad Colin Furze who's built a pertrol powered pram to whizz his new baby to the shops and back. I lolled.
 

it shows