Who wants to learn cash game strategy?

[AlexMartin]

Great thread Totalise, utter respect for doing a cash game well.

When you were moving up what was the hardest level you found to beat and how did you adjust to this? I.E skip levels, shortstack, open up.

[Pyso]

Nice thread Totalise, it's nearly a book already.

Not poker related, but I also played Oliver Wilson once in a scratch knockout match and the young'un did me on the last green. Which was fair enough until I discovered he was 11 years old at the time! He looked about 18 even then.. LOL.

Which I suppose is why he is on tour and the closest I've come to making a cut in a EuroPro Tour event is 4 shots... The height of my golfing achievement - a bit like winning a £20 re-buy at Gala...

Poker is my game now (maybe golf could interest me again when I hit 50 and the Seniors Tour lol) and reading this thread has got me thinking one thing -

Nobody is mentioning the rake. I play on a site that gives 75% rake back (it's true, no catch) and when I started to see how much I was being raped, it means I just can't force myself to play anywhere else: which I'd rather do because the site I play on is so low volume it's a joke.

How much of an edge do you think you need on the cash tables so as to not worry about the rake? From studying how they take it, it seems to me, and I might be wrong, that the higher up the limits you go, the proportionally less effect the rake has on your profits - which is why it's so difficult to build a bank roll from nothing. Anyone agree?

I am a winning player at the moment but I know the rake back is a big part of this.

You read fanciful stuff about players turning $50 into $10,000 and then losing it all; well that just isn't happening to me - I'm just steadily increasing by about 10% each month, with the odd downswing which puts me back to the previous plateau, and so on.

Because I'm playing at the low, low limits (2 reasons - lack of funds (blew it all in a deluded attempt to play tour golf), and a conscious decision to play down there while I'm still learning and improving) does this mean that I am plodding too much? Or does it always happen like this at these limits? ($0.10/$0.25)

I find I am far more profitable in the live cash games but that is a whole new subject.

Just wondering... (and yes, I am going through an horrific online downturn at the moment, which is when we all start to doubt ourselves...)

[Grier78]

Nice thread Totalise, it's nearly a book already.

Not poker related, but I also played Oliver Wilson once in a scratch knockout match and the young'un did me on the last green. Which was fair enough until I discovered he was 11 years old at the time! He looked about 18 even then.. LOL.

Which I suppose is why he is on tour and the closest I've come to making a cut in a EuroPro Tour event is 4 shots... The height of my golfing achievement - a bit like winning a £20 re-buy at Gala...

Poker is my game now (maybe golf could interest me again when I hit 50 and the Seniors Tour lol) and reading this thread has got me thinking one thing -

Nobody is mentioning the rake. I play on a site that gives 75% rake back (it's true, no catch) and when I started to see how much I was being raped, it means I just can't force myself to play anywhere else: which I'd rather do because the site I play on is so low volume it's a joke.

How much of an edge do you think you need on the cash tables so as to not worry about the rake? From studying how they take it, it seems to me, and I might be wrong, that the higher up the limits you go, the proportionally less effect the rake has on your profits - which is why it's so difficult to build a bank roll from nothing. Anyone agree?

I am a winning player at the moment but I know the rake back is a big part of this.

You read fanciful stuff about players turning $50 into $10,000 and then losing it all; well that just isn't happening to me - I'm just steadily increasing by about 10% each month, with the odd downswing which puts me back to the previous plateau, and so on.

Because I'm playing at the low, low limits (2 reasons - lack of funds (blew it all in a deluded attempt to play tour golf), and a conscious decision to play down there while I'm still learning and improving) does this mean that I am plodding too much? Or does it always happen like this at these limits? ($0.10/$0.25)

I find I am far more profitable in the live cash games but that is a whole new subject.

Just wondering... (and yes, I am going through an horrific online downturn at the moment, which is when we all start to doubt ourselves...)

I mainly play low limit cash and find that the rake is about the same as my profit, but as this level is about 95% fish then its still easy to build up, just not quick.

[totalise]

Great thread Totalise, utter respect for doing a cash game well.

When you were moving up what was the hardest level you found to beat and how did you adjust to this? I.E skip levels, shortstack, open up.

hi Alex, thanks a lot. Funny how its only been less then 2 years since this thread and yet the game has evolved a lot since. Most of the stuff in here still applies, but its clear how much more advanced the game has got.

initially i had problems with 2/4,  it was the first step (back then) with an even numbered whole figure small blind, 0.25/50...0.50/1.. 1/2.. and it really made it hard to figure out the best way to size the bets for some reason. 3/6 was probably a level i dint even beat, it seemed so big, $24 pre, called, pot $48, cbet, and a call, had the pot at $100 even before you saw the turn.... and because the pots were 3 figures so often, it was a difficult level to beat pshychologically.

The psychology of poker is something that isn't really studied enough imo, not the mind games, or the reading, or the different levels of thinking, just the emotional control of handing the winnings and most importtantly,  the losses. I actually mentioned this earlier, about the happiness of winning vs losing, ie losing $1k making you more sad then winning $1k makes you happy means you need a deeper roll,  and also a lot of people move up far too quick, basing it on their roll size rather then their mental ability to handle it. Winning 30 buyins in a month at 2/4 and they go to 3/6 and hope to maintain it, and they are probably winning players theoretically at 3/6, but losing 4 buyins there is almost $2.5k, and this is a loss that you dont often get at 2/4, so its important to ensure that you dont only move up in accordance with your bankroll, but with your mental ability to handle losing if you do move up. Most people convince themselves they can do it, but they dont spend enough time thinking about that aspect of it before deciding to move up I dont think.

[totalise]

Nice thread Totalise, it's nearly a book already.

Not poker related, but I also played Oliver Wilson once in a scratch knockout match and the young'un did me on the last green. Which was fair enough until I discovered he was 11 years old at the time! He looked about 18 even then.. LOL.

Which I suppose is why he is on tour and the closest I've come to making a cut in a EuroPro Tour event is 4 shots... The height of my golfing achievement - a bit like winning a £20 re-buy at Gala...

Poker is my game now (maybe golf could interest me again when I hit 50 and the Seniors Tour lol) and reading this thread has got me thinking one thing -

Nobody is mentioning the rake. I play on a site that gives 75% rake back (it's true, no catch) and when I started to see how much I was being raped, it means I just can't force myself to play anywhere else: which I'd rather do because the site I play on is so low volume it's a joke.

How much of an edge do you think you need on the cash tables so as to not worry about the rake? From studying how they take it, it seems to me, and I might be wrong, that the higher up the limits you go, the proportionally less effect the rake has on your profits - which is why it's so difficult to build a bank roll from nothing. Anyone agree?

I am a winning player at the moment but I know the rake back is a big part of this.

You read fanciful stuff about players turning $50 into $10,000 and then losing it all; well that just isn't happening to me - I'm just steadily increasing by about 10% each month, with the odd downswing which puts me back to the previous plateau, and so on.

Because I'm playing at the low, low limits (2 reasons - lack of funds (blew it all in a deluded attempt to play tour golf), and a conscious decision to play down there while I'm still learning and improving) does this mean that I am plodding too much? Or does it always happen like this at these limits? ($0.10/$0.25)

I find I am far more profitable in the live cash games but that is a whole new subject.

Just wondering... (and yes, I am going through an horrific online downturn at the moment, which is when we all start to doubt ourselves...)

lol yes , Ollie was always destined for greatness. I also played a lot with David Skinns, I dont know if you ever played with him? He went to Tennessee ( I think) on a golf scholarship, he was really in the same mould as Oliver.

As for the rake, I guess you are playing on WSEX? the problem there is that you are probably trading win rate for rakeback.. your win-rate isnt linear in between sites... some sites that dont offer rakeback you might make 20 bb/100 with no rakeback, whereas on a rakback site you might make 3bb/100 but get 75% rakeback... so just becase you get rakeback doesn't mean that its the best option in terms of playing at the site. Use pokertracker to line up the stats and try to see which would be better for you.

You are defo right about it being harder to build a roll in terms of rake, especially in todays climate where you will get college students playing 16 tables of 0.25/0.50, and the quality being better then at 2/4NL on party 3 years or so ago... its a tough job to build a small roll online in a short space of time. You can counter this by saying you are building things more important then a roll, you are building solid fundamentals, you are building a solid mental understanding of how internet poker really is, you are building an understanding of how to approach poker in terms of roll management/study/table selection. Sure, sometimes people spin up small sums into big sums, but most of the time they lose it alll because they either dont have the fundamentals you will have built by grinding, or because they try and keep playing higher. Its a romantic poker story to think that turning $50 or $100 into $10k is a walk in the park, but for every $10k success story, the path is littered with $50's that have been thrown away chasing it.

Also dont ever regret trying to play golf professionally and failing, you had a dream and you chased it, when i was 15/16 i won our club championship, was playing county golf up to the B team, and had a handicap of 2.9 ( i think) , and a boat load of potential. I regret to this day not even trying to see where professional golf went. most likely it would have failed, but the not knowing prays on the mind. At least you had the balls to go for it. Be proud.

[Tragic]

Great thread Totalise, utter respect for doing a cash game well.

When you were moving up what was the hardest level you found to beat and how did you adjust to this? I.E skip levels, shortstack, open up.

hi Alex, thanks a lot. Funny how its only been less then 2 years since this thread and yet the game has evolved a lot since. Most of the stuff in here still applies, but its clear how much more advanced the game has got.

initially i had problems with 2/4,  it was the first step (back then) with an even numbered whole figure small blind, 0.25/50...0.50/1.. 1/2.. and it really made it hard to figure out the best way to size the bets for some reason. 3/6 was probably a level i dint even beat, it seemed so big, $24 pre, called, pot $48, cbet, and a call, had the pot at $100 even before you saw the turn.... and because the pots were 3 figures so often, it was a difficult level to beat pshychologically.

The psychology of poker is something that isn't really studied enough imo, not the mind games, or the reading, or the different levels of thinking, just the emotional control of handing the winnings and most importtantly,  the losses. I actually mentioned this earlier, about the happiness of winning vs losing, ie losing $1k making you more sad then winning $1k makes you happy means you need a deeper roll,  and also a lot of people move up far too quick, basing it on their roll size rather then their mental ability to handle it. Winning 30 buyins in a month at 2/4 and they go to 3/6 and hope to maintain it, and they are probably winning players theoretically at 3/6, but losing 4 buyins there is almost $2.5k, and this is a loss that you dont often get at 2/4, so its important to ensure that you dont only move up in accordance with your bankroll, but with your mental ability to handle losing if you do move up. Most people convince themselves they can do it, but they dont spend enough time thinking about that aspect of it before deciding to move up I dont think.

That is so true and very well put. No matter what my bankroll, at the moment the swings of anything above 2/4 are just too much for me to a cope with. A 2 BI downswing at 2/5 affects me a million times more than 10+ at 50$NL. Ridiculous but I'm not going back till I've found a way to deal with it. Which may mean waiting until massively over-rolled.

[Pyso]

Totalise,

...thanks for the reply.

I don't regret trying golf professionally, in fact I wish I had tried it sooner as I was a very late starter to begin with. I played for Leicestershire who were bizarrely in the Anglian League so we never got to play against Nottinghamshire, so I never played with David Skinns or his ilk. I wish I had played for Notts as I live in the county and support the reds but I was a member of a club near Leicester.

Anyway, this is a poker forum(!) so I ought to make a poker related comment. The rake back is an issue that divides me. Yes, I play on WPex but I struggle to see how I would make more money getting no rakeback at all on a site such as Party for example.

Is the standard too high at WPex to prevent it being worthwhile? From what I've seen the players there aren't much better than anywhere else. But there are definitely FEWER of them that's for sure...most nights we average around 300 players online and at least half of those are playing in the freerolls.. not good.


Perhaps I should play on DTD where at least you get 30 per cent, and see what happens.

Also, another question regarding cash games. Is it better to a) buy in short, with plenty in reserve to top up with, or b) buy in for the max and keep topping up when I go below say, 80 per cent?

I can see valid arguments for both, but to behonest I lean towards buying in full. I know it depends on what you are trying to do but I would be interested in anyone's opinions on this.

[AlexMartin]

Great post m8.

My biggest worry is Top pair in the blinds multiway in an unraised pot. I have taken to just betting pot and folding to any resistance.

epic

gg m8

[Dubai]

Thats what I do now!!!!!!!!!!!

[Royal Flush]

Great post m8.

My biggest worry is Top pair in the blinds multiway in an unraised pot. I have taken to just betting pot and folding to any resistance.

epic

gg m8

fml!