This is a new one on me.......(Poker Rule)

[tikay]

A really rather weird thing happoened at Luton last week, perhaps someone can enlighten me as to the thinking behind this rule.

Steve Read, to my right, has a habit, when Raising (which is almost every hand) of saying "raise", then FIRST putting the CALL in the middle, then he counts out the Raise & places that in. No prob there. I never heard him say "Raise", but saw his "call" chips go in, so I Passed. Naturally. Then the domino effect took over, & Joe Grech, to my left, also passed. No prob, no fuss, case closed, it was a mistake on my part, I apologised, end of story.

Except......

Young Scott Sadler, still to act, said, "is Steve Read's hand still "live"?

Everyone chuckled. Of course it is, why should it not be?

He went on to explain that they have a Rule at Luton, indeed all Grosvenors, that if two people Pass out of Turn, as myself & Joe Grech mistakenly did, the RAISERS hand is DEAD.....!

We all rubbished poor Scott, so the TD was summoned. "Well, it' not "two people acting out of turn, it's "more than two" people actng out of turn. If they do so, the Raisers hand is killed".

What?

Why?

Any clues as to the logic behind the innocent party (the Raiser) being penalised?

And think of how this could be exploited!

And think what, say, Barry Neville might have to say if his hand was voided because two players behind him Passed out of turn.......

Anyway, apologies from the whole table to Scott, who was, bizarrely, proven right. What a weird thing. Scott was NOT challenging Steve, just making the point, & Scott did nothing wrong at all.

Any ideas why this Rule exists?

[M3boy]

And I thought that string betting in USA was wierd!! (Where you can pick up a handfull of chips, cross the line and drop as many as you like, when you like. ie you can drop say 5x1000 chips, keep your hand over the line, glance at your opponent, and then continue to drop more chips!!!!)

How strange TK - I would also like to know.

[thetank]

It does seem quite a bizzare rule, but this is the possible thinking behind it.

The amount of players still to act might affect the size of his raise.

Perhaps the rule came into being to stop people, after one person has already passed out of turn, to deliberately dwell in order to induce more out of turn actions. Trying to gain more information than their position allows them, whilst still protecting their right to choose the size of their raise.

You'd need a few players acting together to exploit this, and all it takes is for the raiser to say "hang on, my go still" to stop it. 3 players would have to muck very quickly, be sitting tofether, and another player still would get the benefit. This would be relatively difficult.

To exploit it the other way, (ie, without this rule) you just need to get the guy to your left to pass out of turn before you announce your raise size. This would be relatively easy.

[tikay]

I hear you Tank. But it's a fundamental, surely, that an innocent player cannot be penalised for the improper actions of others? It's not HIS fault they choose to act out of turn.

It's the "out of turn" guys, if anyone, that should suffer the penalty, surely?

[thetank]

Perhaps it's his fault for not saying "hang on" and 3 players was deemed a reasonable number to allow him to do this by.

[tikay]

Perhaps it's his fault for not saying "hang on" and 3 players was deemed a reasonable number to allow him to do this by.

He has no obligation to "police" the rest of the table. It's for them to stay in line. He is being deemed the guilty party. I don't buy that.

[turny]

seems a mad rule to me.

maybe would be better if the player was prevented from raising rather than his hand deemed dead.

people can fold very quickly especially if not concentrating fully like a domino effect.

surely the dealer has to take some responsibility here he/she should be listening for the players verbal actions and stop the rest of the table folding after the death old man who was next to act did 

[ifm]

Apart from it being a daft rule i would also add i have never seen it used, ever!! and i have played at grosvenor Walsall hundreds of times, never heard of it

[thetank]

Actually, you wouldn't even be needing to work with anyone to exploit the lack of this rule. You'd just need the guy to your left to be of fall into one of these categories...diddy, elderly or fishy. So they arn't paying attention and start off the desired chain reaction.

In the case of the cited example, all three.  

[thetank]

If you know something to be happening that is benefiting you (extra information from a folding chain reaction) then you'd have no reason to speak up and correct matters without this rule.

Indeed it may slow the game up to a snails pace, if every time someone raises, they wait a minute for the extra information. Nothing bad can possibly happen to them, their raising right will be protected whatever.

maybe would be better if the player was prevented from raising rather than his hand deemed dead.

I see what you're saying. Maybe that's a good plan.

If their hand is declared dead by this rule, do they get the chips that they've already put in the middle back? (The calling part)

[tikay]

If you know something to be happening that is benefiting you (extra information from a folding chain reaction) then you'd have no reason to speak up and correct matters without this rule.

Indeed it may slow the game up to a snails pace, if every time someone raises, they wait a minute for the extra information. Nothing bad can possibly happen to them, their raising right will be protected whatever.

maybe would be better if the player was prevented from raising rather than his hand deemed dead.

I see what you're saying. Maybe that's a good plan.

If their hand is declared dead by this rule, do they get the chips that they've already put in the middle back? (The calling part)

If my hand was "killed" because the guys behind me acted out of turn, I might even throw a mini-tantrum. Quietly, like.

It's just wrong.

[thetank]

Now you know the rule, there's no excuse 

[tikay]

Now you know the rule, there's no excuse 

Not at all, no way. I will accept the Rule while it is in place, of course I will. But unless the blondes can explain to me some good reason why it should stay, in case I am missing something, I intend to politely ask Grosvenor to review it.

[tikay]

Now you know the rule, there's no excuse 

Grrr.....!

Thats my whole point, & the erudite Tank is gently & very cleverly teasing me here, bless him.

"no excuse" for WHAT? Doing nothing wrong? The Raiser has no control over, or responsibility for, what players behind him do!

Pack it in Tank, you know I'll rise to the bait....

Off to bed now.

[Royal Flush]

And I thought that string betting in USA was wierd!! (Where you can pick up a handfull of chips, cross the line and drop as many as you like, when you like. ie you can drop say 5x1000 chips, keep your hand over the line, glance at your opponent, and then continue to drop more chips!!!!)

The way it should be!