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The Baron
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« Reply #2025 on: October 25, 2010, 07:30:38 PM »

Class

http://www.skysports.com/video/inline/0,26691,16461_6457503,00.html
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« Reply #2026 on: October 26, 2010, 12:19:04 AM »


Can we have him back plz plz plz...
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« Reply #2027 on: October 26, 2010, 12:35:16 AM »

Heard a whisper that Alonso is going to come back on loan.
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« Reply #2028 on: October 26, 2010, 01:53:48 AM »

Would love it. But he's their best player after Ronaldo so I can't see it.
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kinboshi
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« Reply #2029 on: October 26, 2010, 09:39:15 AM »

Heard (from a reliable source) that King Kenny has been 'promoted' to a role where he will be responsible for the buying and selling of players, and that Roy will be given to the end of season.  Not a great vote of confidence for Roy.  Heard this before the game at the weekend.

Also heard that Woy said that Babel is the worst player he's ever managed in terms of what he does on the pitch and in terms of his attitude.
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« Reply #2030 on: October 26, 2010, 09:43:28 AM »

As for the weekend, why did some players (looking at Maxi and Skrtel, but others as well) decide they can actually play a bit of football?  Surely nothing's changed from a few weeks ago?  If it was all Woy's fault the team are playing so poorly, why did they play better this weekend - was it just that Blackburn are that bad?
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« Reply #2031 on: October 27, 2010, 12:13:01 AM »

Heard (from a reliable source) that King Kenny has been 'promoted' to a role where he will be responsible for the buying and selling of players, and that Roy will be given to the end of season.  Not a great vote of confidence for Roy.  Heard this before the game at the weekend.

Also heard that Woy said that Babel is the worst player he's ever managed in terms of what he does on the pitch and in terms of his attitude.

If the Dalglish rumour had any truth it would mean he is picking the team and moulding it for the future. That would prompt any manager of any credibility to instantly resign and phone Claims Direct or whoever and initiate constructive dismissal proceedings. KK sued the cockney mafia for £8m when they tried the same trick. You would have to think a) Hodgson, a manager of good pedigree actually has zero professional pride and b) the new owners would invite such a shitstorm upon their new club before they've got one foot in the door. Your source is a fantasist sir.

Secondly Babel's attitude does stink. His interview after the Napoli game was negative and it's clear he couldn't care less. I know there's a lot of Rafa love on this thread but you've gotta ask why Hodgson is taking over a world famous club where players harbour negativity. Rafa walks into Inter where Jose has left him a team of pumped up winners where Roy walks into a team of dejected losers the guy's left behind. He's been working professionally with Babel for a couple of years and that is the product. We know he's not generous with his encouragement. Disenchanted fringe players is of no surprise at Liverpool and I really don't rate Benitez that much because of this weakness.

Good draw in Napoli and much improved performance in win against Blackburn. Maybe Hodgon's started clearing up the mess?
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« Reply #2032 on: October 27, 2010, 02:03:57 AM »

Mantis, maybe Babel was simply a bad purchase? Not nearly as good as his hype? The core players who had "a couple of years working with Rafa" improved hugely. Reina, Carragher as a centre half, Finnan, Alonso, Mascherano (after looking like a muppet at West Ham), Gerrard as an attacking midfielder, Torres, Hyypia. Fringe players get unhappy I'm afraid. You talk of Mourinho having pumped up winners - how many fringe players has he fallen out with over the years?

If you compare one season of negativity to 5 other seasons of general happiness you'll find the 'Rafa killed the players theory' to be full of more holes. I've no doubt he's not an arm round the shoulder kinda guy, and that he will rub some up the wrong way (ie Babel, Benayoun - the only first team player to suffer was Alonso after 4 good years) but to say the morale was down to the last manager alone with what the club has just been through is ridiculous.

There's loads wrong with Rafa as a manager, but Babel's attitude isn't one of them.

I'm not sure I buy the Kenny being promoted stuff either, but Kin's sources are usually pretty close to the mark.
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« Reply #2033 on: October 27, 2010, 06:46:03 PM »

Mantis, maybe Babel was simply a bad purchase? Not nearly as good as his hype? The core players who had "a couple of years working with Rafa" improved hugely. Reina, Carragher as a centre half, Finnan, Alonso, Mascherano (after looking like a muppet at West Ham), Gerrard as an attacking midfielder, Torres, Hyypia. Fringe players get unhappy I'm afraid. You talk of Mourinho having pumped up winners - how many fringe players has he fallen out with over the years?

If you compare one season of negativity to 5 other seasons of general happiness you'll find the 'Rafa killed the players theory' to be full of more holes. I've no doubt he's not an arm round the shoulder kinda guy, and that he will rub some up the wrong way (ie Babel, Benayoun - the only first team player to suffer was Alonso after 4 good years) but to say the morale was down to the last manager alone with what the club has just been through is ridiculous.

There's loads wrong with Rafa as a manager, but Babel's attitude isn't one of them.

I'm not sure I buy the Kenny being promoted stuff either, but Kin's sources are usually pretty close to the mark.

After Napoli Babel states "The manager said it was my chance but I've heard all that before". That comment is a clear indication of how he's been demoralised under Benitez. But yeah maybe he is just a bad apple. There is no doubt Benitez is tactically astute so you can give the guy a pot of money at any football club and you have a good shot at winning some silverware. So yeah 5 seasons of general happiness is about right. But don't you think the manager of Liverpool FC has more responsibility than that? That he should be sensitive to the fact he's carrying a historic torch temporarily and should be passing it on burning as brightly? I grew up watching the dominant 80's side and everyone in that side had a decade+ of service at Anfield. They had Liverpool blood flowing through their veins. If you want to harbour expectations of staying around the top of the league for any amount of time like they did you need a bedrock of loyality and service. Players who inspire the younger guys and teach them about the Liverpool way.

Fergie does this brilliantly at Man U. He's got living legends playing at Old Trafford like Giggs, Scholes, Neville etc along with potential legends that have been bedded into the team over a number of years like Fletcher, Rooney, Nani etc...And even newer guys coming in to learn the United way from a solid infrastructure of committed United die-hards. Ronaldo was there for like 7 years and left with a heavy heart.

So back to these players Benitez has improved. Where is Alonso, Mascherano, Finnan, Hyypia? Because Liverpool FC aren't benefitting from his investment to make them better. In fact who has Benitez ever bought who has been at the club for 5 years? The goalie? Are you at all confident any of the current crop will be around in 5 years? I think it's a sad state of affairs that we have to look to Carragher and Gerrard as the only legend material at the club. They were there before Rafa arrived. So in the 6 years of general happiness how did he add to the heritage of the club and build on those foundations? Yeah he churned a load of mediocre players through the club and made a few quid on some but didn't that dilute the honour of playing for the club at the same time and lead to this current non plus attitude from many? After 6 years of Rafa who is the heart and soul of Liverpool? Still Gerrard and Carra? Fuck me. The guy can get temporary success but doesn't give a feck about what happens after he's gone. I didn't really see Valencia kick on after he left citing problems with the owners and I'm sure he'll do well in the short-term at Inter but will have problems with the owners and gg to them afterwards. Yeah so 5 happy years where he kinda destroyed the legacy of Liverpool with Hodgson now conveniently carrying the can for him.
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« Reply #2034 on: October 28, 2010, 02:05:52 AM »

Again maybe Babel wasn't good enough? Again, fringe players who aren't good enough for the first XI will get demoralised naturally?

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But don't you think the manager of Liverpool FC has more responsibility than that? That he should be sensitive to the fact he's carrying a historic torch temporarily and should be passing it on burning as brightly?

I do indeed - but he came to a club with an awful squad. He left it a much better squad with far more recent history than when he arrived. He's donated to the Hillborough fund and several other local funds relating to the club. He's a bigger Liverpool fan than Hodgson will ever be and far, far more in touch with being a red than Woy will ever be.

Football wise had he not been forced to work on a shoestring in his last two seasons (making more than he spent) whilst clubs catching us up spent more than ever in their history, I have no doubt that we would still be in the top 3.

Decent net spend up until 2008. Great results until 2009 including closest title challenge since the EPL. Net spend has been negative since then and what has happened to results? A strong correlation I think.

What I will accept is that 7th with last seaso's squad was an under acvhievement. But when you compare spend on transfers and wages to those above us it's actually far closer to where we "should" be.

Quote
Fergie does this brilliantly at Man U. He's got living legends playing at Old Trafford like Giggs, Scholes, Neville etc along with potential legends that have been bedded into the team over a number of years like Fletcher, Rooney, Nani etc...And even newer guys coming in to learn the United way from a solid infrastructure of committed United die-hards. Ronaldo was there for like 7 years and left with a heavy heart.

Apples and pears I'm afraid. You're comparing a side that can offer more wages, higher transfer fees and more trophies year on year. That aside, I am more than happy with the loyalty of players like Gerrard, Carragher, Kuyt, Torres (Liverpool fan before he came), Reina, Agger (who could have gone to Milan), Johnson (who could have chosen Chelsea) and Cole (who could have gone to most top EPL clubs) - how many loyal players do you want?

Ferguson has had the likes of the following go in recent years: Heinze, Ronaldo, Tevez and now nearly Rooney.

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So back to these players Benitez has improved. Where is Alonso, Mascherano, Finnan, Hyypia? Because Liverpool FC aren't benefitting from his investment to make them better. In fact who has Benitez ever bought who has been at the club for 5 years? The goalie?

This is so lol. Well Finnan and Hyypia were moved on in their twilight years after great LFC service. So I don't get your point? Alonso was touted about after 2 BAD seasons for us and inevitably left the year after when he'd had a great season. Obviously this was a mistake by Benitez.

As for players who have been around 5 years I don't get what point you're trying to make? We've gone from upgrade to upgrade as we can blow 17m on the likes of Anderson or Carrick. Hamann, Biscan, Gerrard, Murphy > Hamann, Alonso, Gerrard, Biscan,> Alonso, Sissoko, Gerrard, Hamann, > Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard, Sissoko etc Josemi, Kromkamp, Arbeloa, Johnson, etc Baros, Cisse, Bellamy, Crouch, Torres - again the failing being the withdrawl of funds when the squad was really close to being very good. Were there mistakes? Yes. Alonso, Keane (although this is mostly Rick Parry) etc but year on year up until 2009 you will see a marked improvement in the squad.

It is too easy and misguided to say why did you sell Bellamy/Crouch/Sissoko/insert name here - we needed the money for our upgrades. Simple as that.

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So in the 6 years of general happiness how did he add to the heritage of the club and build on those foundations? Yeah he churned a load of mediocre players through the club and made a few quid on some but didn't that dilute the honour of playing for the club at the same time and lead to this current non plus attitude from many?

He won trophies? He had a youth side that won back to back FA Cups? We've won the reserve league with a youth side? We went from 5th place finishers to 4 points from being champions on a budget of £14m net per season (I challenge you to show me who else has done something similar in the premier league era bar Arsene Wenger who for me is a genius)

At one stage we had a side that contained a world's top 3 gk, a miserly defence (the best in the EPL at the time) possibly the best ball playing CM in the league (definitely top 3 in the world) a brilliant defensive CM, the league's top central AM and one of the world's best strikers (when fit) when he was still being funded.

How is upgrading year on year, to get to this stage, becuase you don't have the budget to fill a first XI full of superstars bad management?

Quote
After 6 years of Rafa who is the heart and soul of Liverpool? Still Gerrard and Carra? Fuck me. The guy can get temporary success but doesn't give a feck about what happens after he's gone.

No he's left us Torres, Reina, Johnson, Agger, Kuyt, instead of Dudek, Carragher at RB, Biscan, Murphy, Baros - hopefulls like Pacheco, Suso, Ince, Shelvey and Wilson instead of Vignal, Le Tallec, Mellor, Traore

If you think he doesn't care you really have no idea what you're talking about. You are just guessing. (EDIT: He gives more of a shit than McManaman, Lawrenson, Evans, Redknapp and Souness - some of which are "legends" you mention above)

Quote
I didn't really see Valencia kick on after he left citing problems with the owners and I'm sure he'll do well in the short-term at Inter but will have problems with the owners and gg to them afterwards. Yeah so 5 happy years where he kinda destroyed the legacy of Liverpool with Hodgson now conveniently carrying the can for him.

Lol so he leaves Valencia after 2 league titles and a Uefa Cup and it's his fault they didn't win more after? You do realise you're arguing for him here? Do you know when they last won La Liga before he arrived? He is seen as one of the best managers in the world by most of Europe for his achievements there - I'm really at a loss as to how this can be used to argue that he's done something wrong?

What legacy are you talking about? The one where we last won the league in 1990? Oh that's right the legay you grew up watching. It ended in 1990! He arrived into a club on the decline facing financial constraints and people outspending us left right and centre, an unbeaten Arsenal side, endless millions at Chelsea and the force that is Man Utd. In that time he won more trophies than Wenger (often overlooked) fought very hard for the club against the owners, helped the community, and most importantly improved the side.

Hodgson, so far, has made the side worse. This is pretty undeniable. He was however working under the same restraints as Benitez so I am hoping he gets it right with some money on his side. But coming out after a 2-0 thumping at the hands of Everton and saying "it's the best we've played all season" or saying he's worried about Torres going to Utd is so far from the Liverpool way I fear he'll never be treated as maybe he should. There are threads all over LFC message boards right now saying exactly this - we like Hodgson, he's a nice guy etc etc but he's just so wrong for the club. Now there's a man really killing the Liverpool tradition.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 02:16:00 AM by The Baron » Logged
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« Reply #2035 on: October 28, 2010, 11:43:00 AM »

Brilliant post Baron.
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« Reply #2036 on: October 28, 2010, 12:55:07 PM »

Please leave Mellor out of this though. I'm still hoping he will be Wednesday's saviour.
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« Reply #2037 on: October 28, 2010, 02:06:42 PM »

Yeah well obviously I know I'm on a hiding to nothing trying to chastise Benitez on the Liverpool thread. The guy won stuff and you can't really argue with that. However, if he loves Liverpool so much why did he play the power struggle out in such a public fashion? How did he imagine Liverpool FC were going to benefit from his public criticism and weird negativity? The dude will put his own agenda before doing what is best for the club and that's been proven time and again. Good to hear that the youths were so successful with back to back FA cups and a league title. How many of those players are in the first team squad? And after a multi-million pound pay-off from Liverpool I admit he was very generous to give £96k of it back in such a public fashion.
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« Reply #2038 on: October 28, 2010, 07:03:50 PM »

Yeah well obviously I know I'm on a hiding to nothing trying to chastise Benitez on the Liverpool thread. The guy won stuff and you can't really argue with that. However, if he loves Liverpool so much why did he play the power struggle out in such a public fashion? How did he imagine Liverpool FC were going to benefit from his public criticism and weird negativity? The dude will put his own agenda before doing what is best for the club and that's been proven time and again. Good to hear that the youths were so successful with back to back FA cups and a league title. How many of those players are in the first team squad? And after a multi-million pound pay-off from Liverpool I admit he was very generous to give £96k of it back in such a public fashion.

Chastising him for Alonso, Keane, Barry, substitutions, press conferences, lack of passion, not putting an arm around some is all fine. Character assassinating the man himself is unwarranted imo.

The power struggle had to be played out in a public fashion. In May 2007 when we made the final in Athens everyone thought the LFC world was rosey, Benitez knew better. He risked his own job (nearly being replaced by Klinsmann and who knows how many other times) to get this information out to the fans. He did walk from Valencia over having no transfer control but fought enough for the fans to not do that at Liverpool. Instead Parry went after the Keane fiasco. This then brought youth player sales into his control (as it should be) and tactics and training in line with the first team (as Wenger did years and years ago) and allowed him to bring in his own youth coaches like Rudolfo Burrell from Barcelona. In the end it was about awareness and getting the right set up at the club which many of us reds now believe we have (in line with Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal).

LFC benefitted from the criticism by creating groups such as Spirit of Shankly who caused, en masse, a huge campaign against the old owners. Were you aware that over 10 financial institutions walked away from refinancing Hicks due to an email campaign from this group and like minded fans? One financier near Central Park in NYC has to politely ask us to stop emailing as we'd broken their server, whilst promising not to finance Hicks. Hicks called it internet terrorism. Benitez started/supported this movement! He wasn't a great orator and I'm sure he got loads wrong (fact!) - but there were enough lines about Shankly dropped into interviews to let the world know where he was and every week he told the fans we "had to fight". We all knew what he meant. Even after last season he wanted to stay. Prior to the yanks he made not one negative remark about the owners.

When else did his agenda come before the club? I would love to hear these examples.

The youths are doing just fine. N'gog will be a good player. Kelly will make the first team. I'm sure Pacheco has a future in football although possibly not in England. The rest? Nearly all sold for a profit. Gonzalez, Nemeth, Insua (when sold), Leto, Barragan, Plessis, Guthrie. There's between £12m and £17m in profit there alone depending on what Insua goes for next summer. Spearing will go for decent money as will a few others who are still with us. Again where is this bad management? We now have universally hunted talent in our ranks such as Shelvey, Sterling, Wilson etc a universally renowned youth coach responsible for 3 or 4 of the best players in the world recently join our ranks and this transformation has occurred whilst adding to the first team transfer kitty.

As for the multi-million pound pay off and the donation to the Hillsborough fund we are just going to be miles apart. If my mate got 113 million Euro the week before last and gave me a hundred grand of it, I wouldn't moan that he kept 112.9 million for himself. It's just not how I think. I believe the amounts are mutually exclusive. Luckily for my club it's not how most of my fellow redmen think either. But good luck with that line of thought.

EDIT: Oh and it wasn't a public fashion, the Echo made it public. His wife stopped by, some say on her way to the airport. They also donated to 3 other charities before they left.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 07:21:06 PM by The Baron » Logged
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« Reply #2039 on: October 28, 2010, 07:08:33 PM »

From the Inter-Spurs game at the San Siro:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8503/85361307.jpg
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