Vegas & The Aftermath - Diary

[George2Loose]

Tikay- I understand that you have to go Vegas but does the fact that you play bind you to play the main event? I dont think it does from what youve written unless Im mistaken?

Im not trying to troll or anything

[Jon MW]

What, if has been suggested, the qualifier, having seen the T & C's, & signed the written contract (yup, there's a written, fully legal Contract), decides to say "gtfo Sky Poker"?

...

On a related note to G2L

Why would anyone sign the contract?

The prize is a trip to Vegas, if you win the trip to Vegas, what is the incentive to sign anything binding you to more than that?

The Package is non-transferable, & there is no cash alternative.

So, if you don't sign the contract, we don't book the flight or Hotel........

Jon, forget the legalese, that's not an issue. If someone wants to break the T & C's, it's quite clear there is not much that can be done.

The players who qualify on Sky Poker know the deal, & if they want to mess about, fine, so be it. You seem to be assuming we have not considered these scenarios & risks. We have, & if you read what I've written, it's quite clear we know the score. It actually happened - almost - to us in '08, & we worked through it. Nobody knew, but lots of things happen in Vegas that nobody knows. I'm not "making a case", I'm answering questions.

If I assumed these scenarios and risks hadn't been considered, it wouldn't be worth asking the question.

I think the gist of most people's questions is about establishing just how robustly Sky would defend it's right to it's players against the muscle of the other sites.

And, given the legal fine line involved in how the promotions are worded and marketed, how much foundation they have to do so.

[The Camel]

If I was to give one piece of advice for anyone who was lucky enough to be in my situation in the future, it would be concentrate on the poker. This is far more important than doing deals.

I spent so long negotiating with Betfair it definitely affected my play.

Keep your mind on the main job in hand.

[Doobs]

At the time, having only experienced 2007 betfair, I was surprised that you ended up turning your back on them.  But having experienced 2010 betfair, then I am not that surprised to hear your betfair story.

I have been to the WSOP with them twice.

In 2007, they did the welcome party, the helicopter thing, were always in the bar at the Wynn, most of the time there was someone there to listen to your dreary bad beat stories and to cheer you on at every break at the Rio.

In 2010, there was a welcome meal, which I ducked out of as there weren't enough seats to go round.  The only other thing I was told about was some cabanas which they booked when most of us were playing day 2.  I barely met anyone from betfair apart from when I was passed a betfair patch as they failed to get the goodie bag to my room. 

I'd have been pretty reluctant to turn my back on the 2007 betfair, but I'd have been searching out stars if I knew in advance how bad betfair were going to be in 2010.  I certainly wouldn't have felt bad about anybody who did so. 

I expect that if sites treat there players well and throw in some extras, they should be able to expect loyalty, but others would draw the line differently.
   

[gatso]

So, if you don't sign the contract, we don't book the flight or Hotel........

I don't get this. you advertise a £10k vegas package, someone wins it but doesn't sign a contract agreeing to sky's terms in a tournament that wasn't even mentioned in the advertising so you don't give them the prize? or have I missed something there?

[pokerfan]

So, if you don't sign the contract, we don't book the flight or Hotel........

I don't get this. you advertise a £10k vegas package, someone wins it but doesn't sign a contract agreeing to sky's terms in a tournament that wasn't even mentioned in the advertising so you don't give them the prize? or have I missed something there?

Its in the t&c's

[gatso]

So, if you don't sign the contract, we don't book the flight or Hotel........

I don't get this. you advertise a £10k vegas package, someone wins it but doesn't sign a contract agreeing to sky's terms in a tournament that wasn't even mentioned in the advertising so you don't give them the prize? or have I missed something there?

Its in the t&c's

really? I can't see it. the contract is mentioned but not what's in it

the t&cs also refer to further terms and conditions but I can't see what they are

[George2Loose]

I really dont see how sky can make you sign a contract

[Jon MW]

So, if you don't sign the contract, we don't book the flight or Hotel........

I don't get this. you advertise a £10k vegas package, someone wins it but doesn't sign a contract agreeing to sky's terms in a tournament that wasn't even mentioned in the advertising so you don't give them the prize? or have I missed something there?

Its in the t&c's

These T&C's you mean?

Terms and Conditions

- By taking part in one of the Sky Poker Qualifying Tournaments you have the opportunity of winning a trip to Las Vegas worth £10,000 (although please note that parts are the Viva Las Vegas Prize Package are subject to further terms and conditions).

...

- Parts of the Package awarded are subject to you entering into a Letter of Agreement with Sky Poker. This will be communicated with you if you are awarded a Viva Las Vegas Prize Package.

So when you enter this tournament you are bound by some terms and conditions which aren't even stated - if they are stated these 'further terms and conditions' are very difficult to find.

And you're bound to enter into a Letter of Agreement with Sky Poker - without being told what it will include?

The most diplomatic way I could put this is - it's all a bit corporate, isn't it?

[George2Loose]

The main point is Sky aren't allowed to advertise that you have to play the main event because Harrah's won't let them therefore they cannot make you play the main event for Sky. Simple

This is why Full Tilt and Stars offer you incentives to play for them pre comp so:

1) you'll actually play

2) It saves them money if you go deep

[pokerfan]

So, if you don't sign the contract, we don't book the flight or Hotel........

I don't get this. you advertise a £10k vegas package, someone wins it but doesn't sign a contract agreeing to sky's terms in a tournament that wasn't even mentioned in the advertising so you don't give them the prize? or have I missed something there?

Its in the t&c's

These T&C's you mean?

Terms and Conditions

- By taking part in one of the Sky Poker Qualifying Tournaments you have the opportunity of winning a trip to Las Vegas worth £10,000 (although please note that parts are the Viva Las Vegas Prize Package are subject to further terms and conditions).

...

- Parts of the Package awarded are subject to you entering into a Letter of Agreement with Sky Poker. This will be communicated with you if you are awarded a Viva Las Vegas Prize Package.

So when you enter this tournament you are bound by some terms and conditions which aren't even stated - if they are stated these 'further terms and conditions' are very difficult to find.

And you're bound to enter into a Letter of Agreement with Sky Poker - without being told what it will include?

The most diplomatic way I could put this is - it's all a bit corporate, isn't it?

Must have misread it.

[Bongo]

Have you been to the Silk Mill Industrial Museum in Derby?

http://www.derby.gov.uk/LeisureCulture/MuseumsGalleries/Derby_Industrial_Museum.htm

I have to admit I'd never heard of it until my Dad mentioned it this weekend. Apparently it's being mothballed on April 3rd so I'm planning on taking a trip there soon.

It would seem to be your cup of tea as they have some form of railway study centre, an RB211 and a Merlin Aero engine.

I went there this weekend and found that the official line of it being "mothballed" was rather misleading. Rolls Royce will be picking up the engines and plans are well under way to turn into a café and some shops. The cynic in me thinks this might well be an opportunistic use of "The Cuts" to carry out an unpopular plan while laying the blame on the national government.

Exhibits wise they had a whole section on trains including a life size cab you could sit in and watch a train journey from the driver's view. It was as boring as it sounds, and they even sell DVDs of it.

The one thing that did interest me in that section though was a graph about BR (it's an old exhibit) saving money on track maintenance by doing less of it. The interesting bit was they had included a line for cost of derailments which was shown to rise steadily... Not sure the PR people (or the legal ones!) would let that out nowadays!

The RB211 was awesome though, much like a work of art in many ways. Was great that you could actually touch it too.

I'm such a geek, sigh.

[The Camel]

What would happen to the £10k if you won apackage but refused to sign a contract?

[Moskvich]

So, if you don't sign the contract, we don't book the flight or Hotel........

I don't get this. you advertise a £10k vegas package, someone wins it but doesn't sign a contract agreeing to sky's terms in a tournament that wasn't even mentioned in the advertising so you don't give them the prize? or have I missed something there?

Its in the t&c's

These T&C's you mean?

Terms and Conditions

- By taking part in one of the Sky Poker Qualifying Tournaments you have the opportunity of winning a trip to Las Vegas worth £10,000 (although please note that parts are the Viva Las Vegas Prize Package are subject to further terms and conditions).

...

- Parts of the Package awarded are subject to you entering into a Letter of Agreement with Sky Poker. This will be communicated with you if you are awarded a Viva Las Vegas Prize Package.

So when you enter this tournament you are bound by some terms and conditions which aren't even stated - if they are stated these 'further terms and conditions' are very difficult to find.

And you're bound to enter into a Letter of Agreement with Sky Poker - without being told what it will include?

The most diplomatic way I could put this is - it's all a bit corporate, isn't it?

Well I'm pretty sure you can't contract someone to further unspecified terms and conditions, or conditions in a future letter of agreement the terms of which aren't revealed. And obviously terms and conditions that bind you to buying into the main event can't be revealed, as the entry to the main event can't be advertised.

The "no cash alternative" is kind of interesting - because "no alternative" to what..?

I suppose if Sky or whoever else wanted to be really hard-nosed about it they could try to take you to Vegas and then spend the rest of the £10k on stuff for you that you don't want. But I don't imagine they'd do that... And presumably they'd have to give you the cash to buy in to the main event at some point, standing by the cashier, don't they..? So the "no cash alternative", to the buy-in element of the prize at least, doesn't really stand up, does it..?

Imagine this is incredibly complex and a nightmare for the poker sites from a legal point of view. Interesting though...

[tikay]

Diverting momentarily........

I need some decent - good - chips.

I've been offered......

Ceramic

Clay 13.5g 8 stripe

Clay 11.5g  

Which are the best? I need them to "feel" good, price is not relevant.