Vegas & The Aftermath - Diary

[AlunB]

Everyone always said Le Saux was the 'intelligent footballer' but I always felt he was just as thick as the rest of them, albeit a little bit better spoken.

David James was always also referenced as being very intelligent, but didn't he go bankrupt about 20 minutes after retiring?

The brightest (British) footballer would still be your thickest mate in real life, IMO.

That said the Secret Footballer is a great read and whoever that is (Basically either Dave Kitson or Danny Murphy from what I can tell) seems very bright.

I reckon Pat Nevin or Brian McClair would probably be able to teach you a thing or 2.

There's quite a few current and ex footballers who could do that. Iain Dowie has a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, Le Saux also has a degree, Steve Coppel, Edwin van der Sar, Clarke Carlisle (another Countdown performer), Juan Mata is studying, as is Glenn Johnson, Lampard got 12 A/A* at GCSE, countless foreign players arrive here and learn English in a year or so. Not to mention the fact that even those who are widely derided for being less than intelligent often turn out to be seriously shrewd (Beckham as a prime example).

If you're putting Lampard forward as an intellectual then I'd just pack it in now

More seriously, Beckham is a very interesting case. He has become almost a different man since he stopped playing football. I totally agree he comes across as very smart and considered these days.

I think the argument isn't that footballers are inherently stupid (that's quite obviously not the case) but more they are kept out of education and kept in a very small bubble until they finish playing.

[horseplayer]

On a wider point

How can you judge how intelligent a footballer is/isnt from watching them and made up stories in tabloids?

You cant

[Rod Paradise]

Everyone always said Le Saux was the 'intelligent footballer' but I always felt he was just as thick as the rest of them, albeit a little bit better spoken.

David James was always also referenced as being very intelligent, but didn't he go bankrupt about 20 minutes after retiring?

The brightest (British) footballer would still be your thickest mate in real life, IMO.

That said the Secret Footballer is a great read and whoever that is (Basically either Dave Kitson or Danny Murphy from what I can tell) seems very bright.

I reckon Pat Nevin or Brian McClair would probably be able to teach you a thing or 2.

There's quite a few current and ex footballers who could do that. Iain Dowie has a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, Le Saux also has a degree, Steve Coppel, Edwin van der Sar, Clarke Carlisle (another Countdown performer), Juan Mata is studying, as is Glenn Johnson, Lampard got 12 A/A* at GCSE, countless foreign players arrive here and learn English in a year or so. Not to mention the fact that even those who are widely derided for being less than intelligent often turn out to be seriously shrewd (Beckham as a prime example).

If you're putting Lampard forward as an intellectual then I'd just pack it in now

More seriously, Beckham is a very interesting case. He has become almost a different man since he stopped playing football. I totally agree he comes across as very smart and considered these days.

I think the argument isn't that footballers are inherently stupid (that's quite obviously not the case) but more they are kept out of education and kept in a very small bubble until they finish playing.

I think that's becoming a thing of the past (and my Dad was dropped from the first team for insisting on going to college, his manager felt it was a distraction). Now the kids who are signed at a young age to the proper academies are expected to work at studies as well. Certainly Celtic Academy kids have a strict rule of decent reports from the school they attend or they don't get to play in the team. (The school is a comprehensive who have a arranged a special curriculum/timetable for them).

One thing that would worry me if I'd a kid in the system wouldn't be studies, but life experience - they are still in a bubble.

[AlunB]

Of course you can't. But you can get a reasonable impression from interviews they do. That's all I said. I can't speak for Barry.

It could, of course, be that they are taught to say bland inanities in media training. And doubtless they are to an extent. But it's so rare even with ex-players on TV you hear anything more than lowest common denominator lad banter. That said anyone who dares to break out of this mould seems to get ridiculed so you can't blame them.

[Rod Paradise]

On a wider point

How can you judge how intelligent a footballer is/isnt from watching them and made up stories in tabloids?

You cant

Good point, also when if they do say something not your typical football cliche they get ridiculed for it (like Cantona, or even Cruyff if we go back further).

[AlunB]

Everyone always said Le Saux was the 'intelligent footballer' but I always felt he was just as thick as the rest of them, albeit a little bit better spoken.

David James was always also referenced as being very intelligent, but didn't he go bankrupt about 20 minutes after retiring?

The brightest (British) footballer would still be your thickest mate in real life, IMO.

That said the Secret Footballer is a great read and whoever that is (Basically either Dave Kitson or Danny Murphy from what I can tell) seems very bright.

I reckon Pat Nevin or Brian McClair would probably be able to teach you a thing or 2.

There's quite a few current and ex footballers who could do that. Iain Dowie has a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, Le Saux also has a degree, Steve Coppel, Edwin van der Sar, Clarke Carlisle (another Countdown performer), Juan Mata is studying, as is Glenn Johnson, Lampard got 12 A/A* at GCSE, countless foreign players arrive here and learn English in a year or so. Not to mention the fact that even those who are widely derided for being less than intelligent often turn out to be seriously shrewd (Beckham as a prime example).

If you're putting Lampard forward as an intellectual then I'd just pack it in now

More seriously, Beckham is a very interesting case. He has become almost a different man since he stopped playing football. I totally agree he comes across as very smart and considered these days.

I think the argument isn't that footballers are inherently stupid (that's quite obviously not the case) but more they are kept out of education and kept in a very small bubble until they finish playing.

I think that's becoming a thing of the past (and my Dad was dropped from the first team for insisting on going to college, his manager felt it was a distraction). Now the kids who are signed at a young age to the proper academies are expected to work at studies as well. Certainly Celtic Academy kids have a strict rule of decent reports from the school they attend or they don't get to play in the team. (The school is a comprehensive who have a arranged a special curriculum/timetable for them).

One thing that would worry me if I'd a kid in the system wouldn't be studies, but life experience - they are still in a bubble.

Interesting. And yes, I agree.

[RED-DOG]

On a wider point

How can you judge how intelligent a footballer is/isnt from watching them and made up stories in tabloids?

You cant

Of course you can't. But you can get a reasonable impression from interviews they do. That's all I said. I can't speak for Barry.

It could, of course, be that they are taught to say bland inanities in media training. And doubtless they are to an extent. But it's so rare even with ex-players on TV you hear anything more than lowest common denominator lad banter. That said anyone who dares to break out of this mould seems to get ridiculed so you can't blame them.

People tend to confuse education with intelligence.

[AlunB]

On a wider point

How can you judge how intelligent a footballer is/isnt from watching them and made up stories in tabloids?

You cant

Of course you can't. But you can get a reasonable impression from interviews they do. That's all I said. I can't speak for Barry.

It could, of course, be that they are taught to say bland inanities in media training. And doubtless they are to an extent. But it's so rare even with ex-players on TV you hear anything more than lowest common denominator lad banter. That said anyone who dares to break out of this mould seems to get ridiculed so you can't blame them.

People tend to confuse education with intelligence.

And tend to confuse one person's opinion with another's.

I said they came across like children and as if they didn't have a thought in their head.

Being removed from education at an early age would definitely be a factor in that as you would only gain a very limited view of the world and of other people (although as someone said earlier that is likely not the case these days). This is then exacerbated by the football bubble.

But to be fair that's all just massive guesswork and assumptions on my part.

The only thing I know is true is this, I find almost without exception that when I hear a British footballer interviewed I gain nothing from it apart from a faint sense of despair.

[AlunB]

A good education teaches you to think.

A bad education makes no difference one way or another really.

[RED-DOG]

On a wider point

How can you judge how intelligent a footballer is/isnt from watching them and made up stories in tabloids?

You cant

Of course you can't. But you can get a reasonable impression from interviews they do. That's all I said. I can't speak for Barry.

It could, of course, be that they are taught to say bland inanities in media training. And doubtless they are to an extent. But it's so rare even with ex-players on TV you hear anything more than lowest common denominator lad banter. That said anyone who dares to break out of this mould seems to get ridiculed so you can't blame them.

People tend to confuse education with intelligence.

And tend to confuse one person's opinion with another's.

I said they came across like children and as if they didn't have a thought in their head.

Being removed from education at an early age would definitely be a factor in that as you would only gain a very limited view of the world and of other people (although as someone said earlier that is likely not the case these days). This is then exacerbated by the football bubble.

But to be fair that's all just massive guesswork and assumptions on my part.

The only thing I know is true is this, I find almost without exception that when I hear a British footballer interviewed I gain nothing from it apart from a faint sense of despair.

I suppose I broadly agree with you Alun, and even though I know I'm guilty of it myself, I always seem to want to pick people up when the make sweeping generalisations.

Oh I know I let Camel get away with it, but he's a lost cause.  

[AlunB]

On a wider point

How can you judge how intelligent a footballer is/isnt from watching them and made up stories in tabloids?

You cant

Of course you can't. But you can get a reasonable impression from interviews they do. That's all I said. I can't speak for Barry.

It could, of course, be that they are taught to say bland inanities in media training. And doubtless they are to an extent. But it's so rare even with ex-players on TV you hear anything more than lowest common denominator lad banter. That said anyone who dares to break out of this mould seems to get ridiculed so you can't blame them.

People tend to confuse education with intelligence.

And tend to confuse one person's opinion with another's.

I said they came across like children and as if they didn't have a thought in their head.

Being removed from education at an early age would definitely be a factor in that as you would only gain a very limited view of the world and of other people (although as someone said earlier that is likely not the case these days). This is then exacerbated by the football bubble.

But to be fair that's all just massive guesswork and assumptions on my part.

The only thing I know is true is this, I find almost without exception that when I hear a British footballer interviewed I gain nothing from it apart from a faint sense of despair.

I suppose I broadly agree with you Alun, and even though I know I'm guilty of it myself, I always seem to want to pick people up when the make sweeping generalisations.

Oh I know I let Camel get away with it, but he's a lost cause.  

Haha! No you're right. It's a bad habit, and I am as guilty of it as anyone.

In this specific case though I really didn't mean they were thick. I meant they seemed to lack depth, or insight or worldliness I guess.

But hey, it's not like they are my best friends so maybe they do and just treat us all like the ignorant clowns we are.

[Jon MW]

...

People tend to confuse education with intelligence.

What is intelligence?

(in your opinion)

[AlunB]

And to be doubly clear I quite agree that education is absolutely no guarantee of any of those things. Sometimes the opposite. But in general it helps. Perhaps even more so if it's a non-traditional education.

[RED-DOG]

...

People tend to confuse education with intelligence.

What is intelligence?

(in your opinion)

IMO intelligence is the ability to learn.

I know loads of people who are illiterate because they never went to school. Some people think they are stupid, which can be a costly mistake.

[AlunB]

...

People tend to confuse education with intelligence.

What is intelligence?

(in your opinion)

IMO intelligence is the ability to learn.

I know loads of people who are illiterate because they never went to school. Some people think they are stupid, which can be a costly mistake.

Why, given such intelligence, have they not taken the trouble to learn? Just curious.