a tikay tourney hand

[bobby1]

This is a fascinating hand and a truly wonderful thread.

I have now seen what happened before replying but my thinking was I push all in in that spot. After reading the thoughts and looking at the pro's and cons I think Tikay made a great point at the end, what is wrong with flat calling?

If you move all in you get to find out if your oppo is super strong coz he calls.

If you flat call you prob get to find out if your oppo is super strong coz he re raises.

So why not call and get the info cheaper and at a less harmful price?

Passing feels weak but is it given the intricacies of the potential re raisers behind you?


I really think this is a wonderful hand as I don't think there is a horrid way to play it and I'm sure given this spot numerous times I might raise/call or pass.


One question I did mull over is this.....would I play this differently online against a comp I had travelled hundreds of miles to play in and I think I would deffo move in online but probably not in the live game.

food for thought

GREAT point Phil.

Online, I push for sure, there's another comp a-waiting if I bust out.

But Luton is around 2 hours drive each-way, & so I play much more conservatively.

How daft is that? It's true though.

 

Thats exactly what I was thinking, and Im worried that that shouldnt be the case.

It should not be the case, but it is. (With me). I need to get it out of my fat head somehow I guuess. It's why I so rarely bust early, too. I think, "ooh, I've driven al this way, I'm having a ball, great table banter, I don't wanna risk busting yet". Daft, I know. Then, when I end up low-chipped, it's push with anything time. Fascinating, this game's twists & turns.

yes, thats it in a nutshell.

[AlexMartin]

Sigh, i know ill take flak for this and tbh i dont g.a.f but some of the advice on this thread is plain poor. Its a tough decision, but its a definite fold.

[tikay]

I've loved the thread, & it just shows how opinions on a seemingly straightforward hand can vary so.

If the exact same situation cropped up again today, I know for sure what I'd do.

Call. Or maybe Pass. (As I did).

But I can see the equally valid arguments for pushing, too. I think the way different people play identical hands is more than just poker strategy, it reflects the way they are in life. And I suppose that's why I'm rarely seen with a big stack in tourneys.

Thank you for all the comments, every Post was worth the read.

[boldie]

This has to be right up there in the best ever PHA thread list for me. It completely made me rethink my strategy when holding something like tens here. I'm not saying I'll be pushing everytime I find myself in this spot but I'll definetly consider it as an option before (probably) folding

[TightEnd]

Of course, if I'd gone the Mantis Route & pushed, I'd have collected a monster pot.

I can't actually recall if I even finalled or not.

you finalled, outdrawing me with 5 left and then doing a 3 way chop!!

[TightEnd]

shortly after the hand tikay and I were chatting and I said he should put it in PHA.......well he forgot but I thought it was an interesting one!

Nice thread!

[MANTIS01]

The fascinating thing for me about this thoroughly enjoyable thread is that one of my posts illustrated how when faced with an almost identical situation in an actual live tournament....I folded. My instincts compelled me to push but I reasoned myself out of it with a lot of very valid what ifs...this is the heart of the matter for me and is the reason I post on blonde.

I am an instinct/feel player and just want to refine those instincts and reason them out logically and in hindsight. T J Cloutier said that your first instincts are usually right and I kinda like that observation. Don't get me wrong though...I also process a whole host of information when making decisions...but this information concerns the specifics of the situation...and is information I consider healthy.

Like I said people worry....and I don't like it when I talk myself out of what I think is right because worry is infecting my decision making process. Stuff like not wanting to go out because I am enjoying myself and the journey home etc is how almost everyone thinks because we love the game and don't want the experience to end. But I am trying to hone my thoughts and trying to train myself to think only healthy things that make decisions purer. To reason out why I should follow my instincts rather than reasoning out why I should avoid them. This I think is poles apart from recklessness and will lead to me being satisfied with each decision...whether the result goes in my favour or not. That's just what I particularly want to achieve whether it be a good thing or a bad thing.

Posted by: Alex Martin
Sigh, i know ill take flak for this and tbh i dont g.a.f but some of the advice on this thread is plain poor. Its a tough decision, but its a definite fold.

Considering you opt to fold Alex I imagine this is comment about my posts. Just for the record let me reiterate that it is not my intention to advise anyone...other than myself. Like I said it is my hope that I can quantify my instincts by putting things down on paper and gravitate more towards this aspect of the game....because this is what I want to achieve...rightly or wrongly. There is far too much of who's right and who's wrong and who's got the biggest balls in poker. This concerns me not because proving who's right would be a nigh on impossible task. Poker is a personal game.

Some fellow members have commented that they have taken something away from this thread and that isn't particularly a bad thing. I have certainly taken something away from it...particularly reading the in-depth words from someone of Tikay's experience. Even if that something is just to educate me about the mindset of other players. If you just say that's wrong and don't explain why nobody gets the opportunity to take anything away.

If I was going to advise one thing about this hand though I would say that the flat call in the bb is really not a road to go down. You are oop and have a weapon. To not use that weapon and sit in a halfway house of decision making is noncommittal...with live players still to act behind you. You would neither get the mathematical odds to make the call and if a 10 doesn't flop you will rely on the charity of the shorter stacks to check it to the river AND you are still behind to the bigger pairs that prevented you pushing in the first place as well as smaller trips you just let in cheaply...this is a position I would not relish and one I feel is completely unnecessary....you never know a 10 might appear on the river.

[kinboshi]

I don't mind the push or the fold (think I'd be pushing here though), but I don't understand the idea of calling here.

Those who think the call is the right play, what are you hoping for on the flop (other than two more tens ), and how are you going to react to the inevitable bet that comes on the flop?

[doubleup]

I don't mind the push or the fold (think I'd be pushing here though), but I don't understand the idea of calling here.

Those who think the call is the right play, what are you hoping for on the flop (other than two more tens ), and how are you going to react to the inevitable bet that comes on the flop?

The idea of calling here makes me nauseous.

[AlexMartin]

The fascinating thing for me about this thoroughly enjoyable thread is that one of my posts illustrated how when faced with an almost identical situation in an actual live tournament....I folded. My instincts compelled me to push but I reasoned myself out of it with a lot of very valid what ifs...this is the heart of the matter for me and is the reason I post on blonde.

I am an instinct/feel player and just want to refine those instincts and reason them out logically and in hindsight. T J Cloutier said that your first instincts are usually right and I kinda like that observation. Don't get me wrong though...I also process a whole host of information when making decisions...but this information concerns the specifics of the situation...and is information I consider healthy.

Like I said people worry....and I don't like it when I talk myself out of what I think is right because worry is infecting my decision making process. Stuff like not wanting to go out because I am enjoying myself and the journey home etc is how almost everyone thinks because we love the game and don't want the experience to end. But I am trying to hone my thoughts and trying to train myself to think only healthy things that make decisions purer. To reason out why I should follow my instincts rather than reasoning out why I should avoid them. This I think is poles apart from recklessness and will lead to me being satisfied with each decision...whether the result goes in my favour or not. That's just what I particularly want to achieve whether it be a good thing or a bad thing.

Posted by: Alex Martin
Sigh, i know ill take flak for this and tbh i dont g.a.f but some of the advice on this thread is plain poor. Its a tough decision, but its a definite fold.

Considering you opt to fold Alex I imagine this is comment about my posts. Just for the record let me reiterate that it is not my intention to advise anyone...other than myself. Like I said it is my hope that I can quantify my instincts by putting things down on paper and gravitate more towards this aspect of the game....because this is what I want to achieve...rightly or wrongly. There is far too much of who's right and who's wrong and who's got the biggest balls in poker. This concerns me not because proving who's right would be a nigh on impossible task. Poker is a personal game.

Some fellow members have commented that they have taken something away from this thread and that isn't particularly a bad thing. I have certainly taken something away from it...particularly reading the in-depth words from someone of Tikay's experience. Even if that something is just to educate me about the mindset of other players. If you just say that's wrong and don't explain why nobody gets the opportunity to take anything away.

If I was going to advise one thing about this hand though I would say that the flat call in the bb is really not a road to go down. You are oop and have a weapon. To not use that weapon and sit in a halfway house of decision making is noncommittal...with live players still to act behind you. You would neither get the mathematical odds to make the call and if a 10 doesn't flop you will rely on the charity of the shorter stacks to check it to the river AND you are still behind to the bigger pairs that prevented you pushing in the first place as well as smaller trips you just let in cheaply...this is a position I would not relish and one I feel is completely unnecessary....you never know a 10 might appear on the river.

Im definitely NOT criticising the thought processes that you have gone through. Its obvious you are a smart player with good analytical skills. I just think that in this particular situation the risk/reward relationship is not good enough. Wasn't knocking you as an individual m8, never would single out anyone, but i disagree so strongly with a push that i had to post.

[TightEnd]

I don't mind the push or the fold (think I'd be pushing here though), but I don't understand the idea of calling here.

Those who think the call is the right play, what are you hoping for on the flop (other than two more tens ), and how are you going to react to the inevitable bet that comes on the flop?

OK I advocated a call, as I knew UTG raisers range was wide and his modus operandi was not to CB if missed


with tikay's info the call was to be made on the basis that a) if UTG re-raises you can let go, b) if not then it could be checked down or you let go if ncessary

I accept that against most opponents this is pretty unlikely

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: TightEnd
with tikay's info the call was to be made on the basis that a) if UTG re-raises you can let go, b) if not then it could be checked down or you let go if necessary

Ok I see the philosophy but...

1. Tikay made a good point about the better quality information he gets from the 2nd, 3rd and 4th players to act after the initial raiser. Imagine how flat calling here fits into that equation. YOU are now giving information of stunningly transparant quality to the very same initial raiser. And armed with the information that you have a hand you are happy to multi-way with YOU hand him the very information he needs to take the initiative and move in with say A-K. I feel that there is absolutely no need to furnish one of your shorter-stacked underlings the luxury of this free information or indeed the opportunity to close you out with his shorter stack and inferior hand.

2. If you call and the ep raiser pushes you fold having literally thrown 2k of your chips away. Although this is a smaller amount than pushing and committing 9k I think it is actually a more reckless way to spend your money. We are still talking about 10% of your stack that you invest and you put it in hoping and without control. When you are sitting on the big stack you have the ability to control every hand you play so why would you hand the control and the intiative to someone else?

3. If you call a 10 probably wont come...but over-cards probably will. You could still be check-folding the best hand if one of your opponents pushes a draw here. Dumb play I know but it happens all the time.

4. If your opponents do ALLOW YOU to check it down....what happens if a 9 hits the river instead of the 10. You have now allowed the guy holding 9's a free and easy suck-out. This is horrible. Trying to save money has cost you money! Again there is absolutely no need to permit this to happen. You have the chips to control....so why just passively allow people to beat you?

5. If you push the guy with 9's may decide to take a stand and make a value call thinking that you are trying to bully. If this happens you have forced your opponent into making a mistake and charged him in full to chase you down with the worse hand. After the flop any action from you will probably spell the retreat of inferior hands such as 9's and so once again trying to save money will cost you money.

6. And finally if one of the bigger stacks is actually holding A-K you will be pushed out of a pot you would have ultimately gone on to win....costing you money.

I think this is compelling evidence to avoid such passive play. The big stack gives you a weapon to control situations so that tool should be used. If you make a couple more of these passive plays and drop to say 12k you have lost the chance to use this powerful weapon without really using it at all.

[KingPoker]

I disagree with you being able to control the play by pushing with your big stack.

If i was the EP raiser and held JJ i would see your big stack raise as a sign of weakness and it would make my call with the knaves a heck of a lot easier. I know this seems out of context but in one of your earlier posts mantis you suggested by pushing with the 10 10 here you are putting pressure on the EP raiser who may even have to fold JJ/QQ as you have put them to the test but honestly i think the raise all in with 10's is overall a weak move and is not going to force anyone with even JJ to fold.
Im not trying to be awkward but as your opinion is so different (in fact the opposite) to mine then im very interested in you analytivcal thought process here.

[MANTIS01]

Posted on: Today at 07:54:01 pmPosted by: KingPoker 
I disagree with you being able to control the play by pushing with your big stack.

If i was the EP raiser and held JJ i would see your big stack raise as a sign of weakness and it would make my call with the knaves a heck of a lot easier. I know this seems out of context but in one of your earlier posts mantis you suggested by pushing with the 10 10 here you are putting pressure on the EP raiser who may even have to fold JJ/QQ as you have put them to the test but honestly i think the raise all in with 10's is overall a weak move and is not going to force anyone with even JJ to fold.
Im not trying to be awkward but as your opinion is so different (in fact the opposite) to mine then im very interested in you analytivcal thought process here. 

Not at all I appreciate the comeback. But like I have always maintained many big tournament plays are marginal and hang on a knife-edge. I posted that I make the exact same play with queens so couldn't justify folding the 10's. With queens I am still behind to kings and aces IF that is what the ep raiser holds (more often than not this wont be the case). So by your rational you will then commit with jacks against my queens and are in big trouble. That's scenario 1.

We don't know for sure what the ep raiser held but the fact he didn't shove after the shorties all-in suggests jacks are unlikely.

Scenario 2 and again following the same train of thought. The original raiser folds after I push (there is nothing to suggest he has a monster)...then the 2nd player who ACTUALLY has 9's would see my big stack raise as a sign of weakness and this would make his decision a heck of a lot easier...so makes a value call and finds himself dominated.

Scenario 3 is that the original raiser calls my all-in with jacks and looses to my rivered 10.

Scenario 4 is that I make a complete balls-up here and loose the pot

If you only flat-call the shorties all-in...the jacks push...you fold and waste the 2k by allowing jacks man to control the situation. That's why I find calling a non-starter. This thread has been so interesting because the situation is so very very marginal and folding is a perfectly reasonable play to make. The action I see before it reaches me leads me to believe I may very well have the best hand. That said I want to put the decision to the field....I'm seeing all 5 cards for 9k...I can afford to take the chance I'm not beat...can you? Occasionally jacks call my tens, sometimes jacks call my queens and sometimes nines call my tens. It is a knife edge play indeed but the control comes from my ability to be able to do this without the fear of busting out...that is a luxury the others don't have.   

[kinboshi]

I disagree with you being able to control the play by pushing with your big stack.

If i was the EP raiser and held JJ i would see your big stack raise as a sign of weakness and it would make my call with the knaves a heck of a lot easier. I know this seems out of context but in one of your earlier posts mantis you suggested by pushing with the 10 10 here you are putting pressure on the EP raiser who may even have to fold JJ/QQ as you have put them to the test but honestly i think the raise all in with 10's is overall a weak move and is not going to force anyone with even JJ to fold.
Im not trying to be awkward but as your opinion is so different (in fact the opposite) to mine then im very interested in you analytivcal thought process here.

You could make the same move with QQ or KK.  JJ has a hell of a decision to make calling for his tournament life here.

(edit:  I need to read and type more quickly)