Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[Woodsey]

Gypsies just completely fascinate me. If you don't mind me saying Tom, you are so hugely different to any Gypsy I've ever knowingly encountered.

"Knowingly encountered" being the salient part of that sentence.   (See. I added a wink so that you will know that I'm not having a pop)

Seriously Cos, this is a great opportunity to explore some issues.

How do you define "Gypsies you've've knowingly encountered", why do we fascinate you, and how am I different?.

Please play along, I won't take offence whatever you say. This is exactly how we start out when we do our cultural awareness training

Red I'm not having a dig at all either and I know you aren't, but I'm always one to be as honest as I can re my thoughts and preconceptions etc.

I don't really know how to word what I'm saying without it coming off as not exactly what I think but I'd love to chat about it next time I saw you at DTD maybe. If I offend you in any way, I do apologise, that is definitely not my aim. I'll try and put my thoughts down though, even if it helps you to understand how some think.

I've identified Gypsies usually by the way they dress and speak and often by how they look too though these all go hand in hand. I often find the appearance of Gypsy men pretty intimidating. A lot look quite mean with battle scars etc. I've found them abrupt and often feels like they are looking for an excuse for confrontation. I would say a lot of people fear them.

If I'm 100% honest, I used to think a majority of Gypsies were a very rough sort of people, law breakers, fighters etc. In fact, I just messaged a friend and said what first comes into your mind when someone says Gypsies. His response was 'thieving thugs' but I know he was attacked on a tennis court a few years in a park by some Gypsy boys so I know his view is extreme and influenced by one event.

Now I'm not really sure what my stance is, though overall I'd be lying if I said I didn't think negatively of Gypsies. (I hate the way that sounds as I'm not one to disciminate - I'd never act in an unfriendly way to any individual and would treat any Gypsy in the same way I would anyone else). I know most of my friends, family and other people I've spoken to often also have a very negative opinion, mostly from personal experience and not just from silly programmes with Danny Dyer or films like Lock Stock.

I was once approached by two Gypsy boys as I walked home from school. I was about 13 and the two boys must of been about 14/15. They asked me if I had 10p spare - I assumed this was to get me to take my wallet out and when I said I hadn't any money on me, one of them grabbed my fountain pen from my blazer's outer pocket and they casually walked off.

We have a Harvester about 100 yards from the house. Some years ago now a few caravans moved in to its car park and the inhabitants tried to, or did break into all 16 of the houses along my stretch of road before they were moved on.

I also played in the same football team as a Gypsy boy called Jon-Paul when I was much younger and he was absolutely fearless. I remember him punching another boy several times in the face during a game when we were about 14 and kids that age just didn't know what was going on. He was seemingly unfazed by it. I've since heard he is now an underground boxer and stabbed his cousin in the leg over a dispute.

Whilst those encounters / incidents are relatively limited, they were very big negative experiences in my life at the time they occurred. It also seems like a disproportionate number of negative things that happened in my life involving Gypsies compared with people of other groups.

Obviously the media doesn't help as you never see anything positive written about Gypsies.

In fact, when Boshi told me you were a Gypsy a few years ago when I'd recently met you both, I think I responded to Dan and said something like, 'But he can't be?' as I thought he was winding me up. Ashamed that I said something so ignorant, but again, it helps explain my thinking.

Kinda worried about posting this because I don't wanna seem narrow minded and reading your thread and stories etc have genuinely changed my perception a lot, but not completely.

Thank you. It's an excellent and honest reply, but it does highlight one of the points I'm continually trying to get across.

You, (Along with most other people, including the media and the government)  assume that everyone who lives in a caravan is a Gypsy, when in fact you had no evidence of this at all.

How do you know that they weren't Irish Travellers, or "New Age travellers" for instance? (No disrespect to either group BTW, but they are not Gypsies)

Still, lets suppose that some of them were Gypsies. They came to your notice because they looked strange and were behaving badly. Well, fair enough, we have bad groups in our community just like everyone else. And they are the ones most likely to come to your attention, just like any other community.

I, and thousands like me, did not come to your attention. Not because we are not Gypsies, but because we don't look strange and we don't behave badly.

And yet, (And I mean no offence here Cos) You admit that you found it difficult to believe that I am a real Gypsy because I don't fit your criteria.

Do you see where the problem lies?

Traditionally, real Gypsies don't want to draw attention to themselves. they want to live quietly on the margins of society. Maintaining a low profile is instinctive when you have been persecuted for generations.

I really am grateful for your input, and your honesty.

Genuine question. Do you think that the % of Gypsies up to no good is no different than the general population? If so are there any stats to back this up?

Before I answer that Andrew, I need you the define "Up to no good" as opposed to "Breaking the law"

Ok I suppose I'm including being a general nuisance on top of breaking the law. But if for the purpose of stats its just easier to use breaking the law and crime figures based on that just go ahead with that...........

[RED-DOG]

Gypsies just completely fascinate me. If you don't mind me saying Tom, you are so hugely different to any Gypsy I've ever knowingly encountered.

"Knowingly encountered" being the salient part of that sentence.   (See. I added a wink so that you will know that I'm not having a pop)

Seriously Cos, this is a great opportunity to explore some issues.

How do you define "Gypsies you've've knowingly encountered", why do we fascinate you, and how am I different?.

Please play along, I won't take offence whatever you say. This is exactly how we start out when we do our cultural awareness training

Red I'm not having a dig at all either and I know you aren't, but I'm always one to be as honest as I can re my thoughts and preconceptions etc.

I don't really know how to word what I'm saying without it coming off as not exactly what I think but I'd love to chat about it next time I saw you at DTD maybe. If I offend you in any way, I do apologise, that is definitely not my aim. I'll try and put my thoughts down though, even if it helps you to understand how some think.

I've identified Gypsies usually by the way they dress and speak and often by how they look too though these all go hand in hand. I often find the appearance of Gypsy men pretty intimidating. A lot look quite mean with battle scars etc. I've found them abrupt and often feels like they are looking for an excuse for confrontation. I would say a lot of people fear them.

If I'm 100% honest, I used to think a majority of Gypsies were a very rough sort of people, law breakers, fighters etc. In fact, I just messaged a friend and said what first comes into your mind when someone says Gypsies. His response was 'thieving thugs' but I know he was attacked on a tennis court a few years in a park by some Gypsy boys so I know his view is extreme and influenced by one event.

Now I'm not really sure what my stance is, though overall I'd be lying if I said I didn't think negatively of Gypsies. (I hate the way that sounds as I'm not one to disciminate - I'd never act in an unfriendly way to any individual and would treat any Gypsy in the same way I would anyone else). I know most of my friends, family and other people I've spoken to often also have a very negative opinion, mostly from personal experience and not just from silly programmes with Danny Dyer or films like Lock Stock.

I was once approached by two Gypsy boys as I walked home from school. I was about 13 and the two boys must of been about 14/15. They asked me if I had 10p spare - I assumed this was to get me to take my wallet out and when I said I hadn't any money on me, one of them grabbed my fountain pen from my blazer's outer pocket and they casually walked off.

We have a Harvester about 100 yards from the house. Some years ago now a few caravans moved in to its car park and the inhabitants tried to, or did break into all 16 of the houses along my stretch of road before they were moved on.

I also played in the same football team as a Gypsy boy called Jon-Paul when I was much younger and he was absolutely fearless. I remember him punching another boy several times in the face during a game when we were about 14 and kids that age just didn't know what was going on. He was seemingly unfazed by it. I've since heard he is now an underground boxer and stabbed his cousin in the leg over a dispute.

Whilst those encounters / incidents are relatively limited, they were very big negative experiences in my life at the time they occurred. It also seems like a disproportionate number of negative things that happened in my life involving Gypsies compared with people of other groups.

Obviously the media doesn't help as you never see anything positive written about Gypsies.

In fact, when Boshi told me you were a Gypsy a few years ago when I'd recently met you both, I think I responded to Dan and said something like, 'But he can't be?' as I thought he was winding me up. Ashamed that I said something so ignorant, but again, it helps explain my thinking.

Kinda worried about posting this because I don't wanna seem narrow minded and reading your thread and stories etc have genuinely changed my perception a lot, but not completely.

Thank you. It's an excellent and honest reply, but it does highlight one of the points I'm continually trying to get across.

You, (Along with most other people, including the media and the government)  assume that everyone who lives in a caravan is a Gypsy, when in fact you had no evidence of this at all.

How do you know that they weren't Irish Travellers, or "New Age travellers" for instance? (No disrespect to either group BTW, but they are not Gypsies)

Still, lets suppose that some of them were Gypsies. They came to your notice because they looked strange and were behaving badly. Well, fair enough, we have bad groups in our community just like everyone else. And they are the ones most likely to come to your attention, just like any other community.

I, and thousands like me, did not come to your attention. Not because we are not Gypsies, but because we don't look strange and we don't behave badly.

And yet, (And I mean no offence here Cos) You admit that you found it difficult to believe that I am a real Gypsy because I don't fit your criteria.

Do you see where the problem lies?

Traditionally, real Gypsies don't want to draw attention to themselves. they want to live quietly on the margins of society. Maintaining a low profile is instinctive when you have been persecuted for generations.

I really am grateful for your input, and your honesty.

Genuine question. Do you think that the % of Gypsies up to no good is no different than the general population? If so are there any stats to back this up?

Before I answer that Andrew, I need you the define "Up to no good" as opposed to "Breaking the law"

Ok I suppose I'm including being a general nuisance on top of breaking the law. But if for the purpose of stats its just easier to use breaking the law and crime figures based on that just go ahead with that...........

In that case, the answer is most definitely Yes, Gypsies do break the law more often than the general population.

When I was travelling, I broke the law most of the time.

I used to camp illegally. I didn't have a waste-carriers licence, (need a perminent  address to get one) I didn't comply with time restrictions for driving a goods vehicle. (hard to comply when your hours are up but the police are making you move on),

Anyway there is lots of stuff in the same vein..  not sending the kids to school, tethering horses on the grass verge, "Stealing" water from a stand-pipe, poaching..... yada yada.

Now. Down to statistics. Statistics might say that Gypsies commit more crime. I don't know for sure, the powers that be are very sensitive about releasing such information. (Imagine the uproar if they revealed that we commit less crime than the general population?)

What the statistics don't take into account is the fact that Gypsies are suspected more, accused more, stopped more, searched more, arrested more, and convicted more.

Thanks Andrew, excellent question.

[kinboshi]

Another question here - Do these 'Irish Travellers' and 'New age travellers' often call themselves Gypsies when they shouldn't?

Irish Travellers and Gypsies are two distinct races/ethnic groups.  Much like Greeks and Turks, Pakistanis and Indians, Dutch and Germans...

[Woodsey]

Gypsies just completely fascinate me. If you don't mind me saying Tom, you are so hugely different to any Gypsy I've ever knowingly encountered.

"Knowingly encountered" being the salient part of that sentence.   (See. I added a wink so that you will know that I'm not having a pop)

Seriously Cos, this is a great opportunity to explore some issues.

How do you define "Gypsies you've've knowingly encountered", why do we fascinate you, and how am I different?.

Please play along, I won't take offence whatever you say. This is exactly how we start out when we do our cultural awareness training

Red I'm not having a dig at all either and I know you aren't, but I'm always one to be as honest as I can re my thoughts and preconceptions etc.

I don't really know how to word what I'm saying without it coming off as not exactly what I think but I'd love to chat about it next time I saw you at DTD maybe. If I offend you in any way, I do apologise, that is definitely not my aim. I'll try and put my thoughts down though, even if it helps you to understand how some think.

I've identified Gypsies usually by the way they dress and speak and often by how they look too though these all go hand in hand. I often find the appearance of Gypsy men pretty intimidating. A lot look quite mean with battle scars etc. I've found them abrupt and often feels like they are looking for an excuse for confrontation. I would say a lot of people fear them.

If I'm 100% honest, I used to think a majority of Gypsies were a very rough sort of people, law breakers, fighters etc. In fact, I just messaged a friend and said what first comes into your mind when someone says Gypsies. His response was 'thieving thugs' but I know he was attacked on a tennis court a few years in a park by some Gypsy boys so I know his view is extreme and influenced by one event.

Now I'm not really sure what my stance is, though overall I'd be lying if I said I didn't think negatively of Gypsies. (I hate the way that sounds as I'm not one to disciminate - I'd never act in an unfriendly way to any individual and would treat any Gypsy in the same way I would anyone else). I know most of my friends, family and other people I've spoken to often also have a very negative opinion, mostly from personal experience and not just from silly programmes with Danny Dyer or films like Lock Stock.

I was once approached by two Gypsy boys as I walked home from school. I was about 13 and the two boys must of been about 14/15. They asked me if I had 10p spare - I assumed this was to get me to take my wallet out and when I said I hadn't any money on me, one of them grabbed my fountain pen from my blazer's outer pocket and they casually walked off.

We have a Harvester about 100 yards from the house. Some years ago now a few caravans moved in to its car park and the inhabitants tried to, or did break into all 16 of the houses along my stretch of road before they were moved on.

I also played in the same football team as a Gypsy boy called Jon-Paul when I was much younger and he was absolutely fearless. I remember him punching another boy several times in the face during a game when we were about 14 and kids that age just didn't know what was going on. He was seemingly unfazed by it. I've since heard he is now an underground boxer and stabbed his cousin in the leg over a dispute.

Whilst those encounters / incidents are relatively limited, they were very big negative experiences in my life at the time they occurred. It also seems like a disproportionate number of negative things that happened in my life involving Gypsies compared with people of other groups.

Obviously the media doesn't help as you never see anything positive written about Gypsies.

In fact, when Boshi told me you were a Gypsy a few years ago when I'd recently met you both, I think I responded to Dan and said something like, 'But he can't be?' as I thought he was winding me up. Ashamed that I said something so ignorant, but again, it helps explain my thinking.

Kinda worried about posting this because I don't wanna seem narrow minded and reading your thread and stories etc have genuinely changed my perception a lot, but not completely.

Thank you. It's an excellent and honest reply, but it does highlight one of the points I'm continually trying to get across.

You, (Along with most other people, including the media and the government)  assume that everyone who lives in a caravan is a Gypsy, when in fact you had no evidence of this at all.

How do you know that they weren't Irish Travellers, or "New Age travellers" for instance? (No disrespect to either group BTW, but they are not Gypsies)

Still, lets suppose that some of them were Gypsies. They came to your notice because they looked strange and were behaving badly. Well, fair enough, we have bad groups in our community just like everyone else. And they are the ones most likely to come to your attention, just like any other community.

I, and thousands like me, did not come to your attention. Not because we are not Gypsies, but because we don't look strange and we don't behave badly.

And yet, (And I mean no offence here Cos) You admit that you found it difficult to believe that I am a real Gypsy because I don't fit your criteria.

Do you see where the problem lies?

Traditionally, real Gypsies don't want to draw attention to themselves. they want to live quietly on the margins of society. Maintaining a low profile is instinctive when you have been persecuted for generations.

I really am grateful for your input, and your honesty.

Genuine question. Do you think that the % of Gypsies up to no good is no different than the general population? If so are there any stats to back this up?

Before I answer that Andrew, I need you the define "Up to no good" as opposed to "Breaking the law"

Ok I suppose I'm including being a general nuisance on top of breaking the law. But if for the purpose of stats its just easier to use breaking the law and crime figures based on that just go ahead with that...........

In that case, the answer is most definitely Yes, Gypsies do break the law more often than the general population.

When I was travelling, I broke the law most of the time.

I used to camp illegally. I didn't have a waste-carriers licence, (need a perminent  address to get one) I didn't comply with time restrictions for driving a goods vehicle. (hard to comply when your hours are up but the police are making you move on),

Anyway there is lots of stuff in the same vein..  not sending the kids to school, tethering horses on the grass verge, "Stealing" water from a stand-pipe, poaching..... yada yada.

Now. Down to statistics. Statistics might say that Gypsies commit more crime. I don't know for sure, the powers that be are very sensitive about releasing such information. (Imagine the uproar if they revealed that we commit less crime than the general population?)

What the statistics don't take into account is the fact that Gypsies are suspected more, accused more, stopped more, searched more, arrested more, and convicted more.

Thanks Andrew, excellent question.

Thanks for the answer. I hope you know me well enough to know I wasn't taking the piss or 'owt 

[RED-DOG]

Gypsies just completely fascinate me. If you don't mind me saying Tom, you are so hugely different to any Gypsy I've ever knowingly encountered.

"Knowingly encountered" being the salient part of that sentence.   (See. I added a wink so that you will know that I'm not having a pop)

Seriously Cos, this is a great opportunity to explore some issues.

How do you define "Gypsies you've've knowingly encountered", why do we fascinate you, and how am I different?.

Please play along, I won't take offence whatever you say. This is exactly how we start out when we do our cultural awareness training

Red I'm not having a dig at all either and I know you aren't, but I'm always one to be as honest as I can re my thoughts and preconceptions etc.

I don't really know how to word what I'm saying without it coming off as not exactly what I think but I'd love to chat about it next time I saw you at DTD maybe. If I offend you in any way, I do apologise, that is definitely not my aim. I'll try and put my thoughts down though, even if it helps you to understand how some think.

I've identified Gypsies usually by the way they dress and speak and often by how they look too though these all go hand in hand. I often find the appearance of Gypsy men pretty intimidating. A lot look quite mean with battle scars etc. I've found them abrupt and often feels like they are looking for an excuse for confrontation. I would say a lot of people fear them.

If I'm 100% honest, I used to think a majority of Gypsies were a very rough sort of people, law breakers, fighters etc. In fact, I just messaged a friend and said what first comes into your mind when someone says Gypsies. His response was 'thieving thugs' but I know he was attacked on a tennis court a few years in a park by some Gypsy boys so I know his view is extreme and influenced by one event.

Now I'm not really sure what my stance is, though overall I'd be lying if I said I didn't think negatively of Gypsies. (I hate the way that sounds as I'm not one to disciminate - I'd never act in an unfriendly way to any individual and would treat any Gypsy in the same way I would anyone else). I know most of my friends, family and other people I've spoken to often also have a very negative opinion, mostly from personal experience and not just from silly programmes with Danny Dyer or films like Lock Stock.

I was once approached by two Gypsy boys as I walked home from school. I was about 13 and the two boys must of been about 14/15. They asked me if I had 10p spare - I assumed this was to get me to take my wallet out and when I said I hadn't any money on me, one of them grabbed my fountain pen from my blazer's outer pocket and they casually walked off.

We have a Harvester about 100 yards from the house. Some years ago now a few caravans moved in to its car park and the inhabitants tried to, or did break into all 16 of the houses along my stretch of road before they were moved on.

I also played in the same football team as a Gypsy boy called Jon-Paul when I was much younger and he was absolutely fearless. I remember him punching another boy several times in the face during a game when we were about 14 and kids that age just didn't know what was going on. He was seemingly unfazed by it. I've since heard he is now an underground boxer and stabbed his cousin in the leg over a dispute.

Whilst those encounters / incidents are relatively limited, they were very big negative experiences in my life at the time they occurred. It also seems like a disproportionate number of negative things that happened in my life involving Gypsies compared with people of other groups.

Obviously the media doesn't help as you never see anything positive written about Gypsies.

In fact, when Boshi told me you were a Gypsy a few years ago when I'd recently met you both, I think I responded to Dan and said something like, 'But he can't be?' as I thought he was winding me up. Ashamed that I said something so ignorant, but again, it helps explain my thinking.

Kinda worried about posting this because I don't wanna seem narrow minded and reading your thread and stories etc have genuinely changed my perception a lot, but not completely.

Thank you. It's an excellent and honest reply, but it does highlight one of the points I'm continually trying to get across.

You, (Along with most other people, including the media and the government)  assume that everyone who lives in a caravan is a Gypsy, when in fact you had no evidence of this at all.

How do you know that they weren't Irish Travellers, or "New Age travellers" for instance? (No disrespect to either group BTW, but they are not Gypsies)

Still, lets suppose that some of them were Gypsies. They came to your notice because they looked strange and were behaving badly. Well, fair enough, we have bad groups in our community just like everyone else. And they are the ones most likely to come to your attention, just like any other community.

I, and thousands like me, did not come to your attention. Not because we are not Gypsies, but because we don't look strange and we don't behave badly.

And yet, (And I mean no offence here Cos) You admit that you found it difficult to believe that I am a real Gypsy because I don't fit your criteria.

Do you see where the problem lies?

Traditionally, real Gypsies don't want to draw attention to themselves. they want to live quietly on the margins of society. Maintaining a low profile is instinctive when you have been persecuted for generations.

I really am grateful for your input, and your honesty.

Thanks for the reply Tom - I was definitely worried you might take it the wrong way as I was completely aware that some of the things I was saying were ignorant but felt like it might help me (and you maybe) if I said them.

Where do you think the problem lies deepest? I know I can can come across like a stirrer or a dousche on blonde sometimes, but I don't think I'm an ignorant person in general. I'm quite open minded and enjoy learning about things yet my view of Gypsies was an ignorant one. Why? Where did this come from in a broader sense?

I've never been educated on Gypsies, neither at school or by my parents. My parents who are quite knowledgeable people I'm sure would be just as ignorant on the subject as I am. This is obviously the crux of the problem - the large part of the population not knowing who Gypsies really are.

Another question here - Do these 'Irish Travellers' and 'New age travellers' often call themselves Gypsies when they shouldn't?

Where do you think the problem lies deepest?

In a word,  prejudice. It means to pre, judge.

Noun. an unfavourable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.


Do these 'Irish Travellers' and 'New age travellers' often call themselves Gypsies when they shouldn't?

Irish Travellers, No. They are an ethnic minority in their own right, and proud to be so.

New-age travellers, yes  they are just members of the general population who, for one reason or another, decide to try to live a Gypsy lifestyle. They often live in large groups in conditions that wouldn't suit real Gypsies at all, and they indulge in practices that we wouldn't want to be associated with.

Now I have absolutely nothing against this, as long as they don't call themselves Gypsies.

They are usually very well educated, and it doesn't take them long to realise that they can benefit from the (Admittedly few) laws that have been put in place to protect the lifestyle of real ethnic Gypsies.  

[RED-DOG]

Gypsies just completely fascinate me. If you don't mind me saying Tom, you are so hugely different to any Gypsy I've ever knowingly encountered.

"Knowingly encountered" being the salient part of that sentence.   (See. I added a wink so that you will know that I'm not having a pop)

Seriously Cos, this is a great opportunity to explore some issues.

How do you define "Gypsies you've've knowingly encountered", why do we fascinate you, and how am I different?.

Please play along, I won't take offence whatever you say. This is exactly how we start out when we do our cultural awareness training

Red I'm not having a dig at all either and I know you aren't, but I'm always one to be as honest as I can re my thoughts and preconceptions etc.

I don't really know how to word what I'm saying without it coming off as not exactly what I think but I'd love to chat about it next time I saw you at DTD maybe. If I offend you in any way, I do apologise, that is definitely not my aim. I'll try and put my thoughts down though, even if it helps you to understand how some think.

I've identified Gypsies usually by the way they dress and speak and often by how they look too though these all go hand in hand. I often find the appearance of Gypsy men pretty intimidating. A lot look quite mean with battle scars etc. I've found them abrupt and often feels like they are looking for an excuse for confrontation. I would say a lot of people fear them.

If I'm 100% honest, I used to think a majority of Gypsies were a very rough sort of people, law breakers, fighters etc. In fact, I just messaged a friend and said what first comes into your mind when someone says Gypsies. His response was 'thieving thugs' but I know he was attacked on a tennis court a few years in a park by some Gypsy boys so I know his view is extreme and influenced by one event.

Now I'm not really sure what my stance is, though overall I'd be lying if I said I didn't think negatively of Gypsies. (I hate the way that sounds as I'm not one to disciminate - I'd never act in an unfriendly way to any individual and would treat any Gypsy in the same way I would anyone else). I know most of my friends, family and other people I've spoken to often also have a very negative opinion, mostly from personal experience and not just from silly programmes with Danny Dyer or films like Lock Stock.

I was once approached by two Gypsy boys as I walked home from school. I was about 13 and the two boys must of been about 14/15. They asked me if I had 10p spare - I assumed this was to get me to take my wallet out and when I said I hadn't any money on me, one of them grabbed my fountain pen from my blazer's outer pocket and they casually walked off.

We have a Harvester about 100 yards from the house. Some years ago now a few caravans moved in to its car park and the inhabitants tried to, or did break into all 16 of the houses along my stretch of road before they were moved on.

I also played in the same football team as a Gypsy boy called Jon-Paul when I was much younger and he was absolutely fearless. I remember him punching another boy several times in the face during a game when we were about 14 and kids that age just didn't know what was going on. He was seemingly unfazed by it. I've since heard he is now an underground boxer and stabbed his cousin in the leg over a dispute.

Whilst those encounters / incidents are relatively limited, they were very big negative experiences in my life at the time they occurred. It also seems like a disproportionate number of negative things that happened in my life involving Gypsies compared with people of other groups.

Obviously the media doesn't help as you never see anything positive written about Gypsies.

In fact, when Boshi told me you were a Gypsy a few years ago when I'd recently met you both, I think I responded to Dan and said something like, 'But he can't be?' as I thought he was winding me up. Ashamed that I said something so ignorant, but again, it helps explain my thinking.

Kinda worried about posting this because I don't wanna seem narrow minded and reading your thread and stories etc have genuinely changed my perception a lot, but not completely.

Thank you. It's an excellent and honest reply, but it does highlight one of the points I'm continually trying to get across.

You, (Along with most other people, including the media and the government)  assume that everyone who lives in a caravan is a Gypsy, when in fact you had no evidence of this at all.

How do you know that they weren't Irish Travellers, or "New Age travellers" for instance? (No disrespect to either group BTW, but they are not Gypsies)

Still, lets suppose that some of them were Gypsies. They came to your notice because they looked strange and were behaving badly. Well, fair enough, we have bad groups in our community just like everyone else. And they are the ones most likely to come to your attention, just like any other community.

I, and thousands like me, did not come to your attention. Not because we are not Gypsies, but because we don't look strange and we don't behave badly.

And yet, (And I mean no offence here Cos) You admit that you found it difficult to believe that I am a real Gypsy because I don't fit your criteria.

Do you see where the problem lies?

Traditionally, real Gypsies don't want to draw attention to themselves. they want to live quietly on the margins of society. Maintaining a low profile is instinctive when you have been persecuted for generations.

I really am grateful for your input, and your honesty.

Genuine question. Do you think that the % of Gypsies up to no good is no different than the general population? If so are there any stats to back this up?

Before I answer that Andrew, I need you the define "Up to no good" as opposed to "Breaking the law"

Ok I suppose I'm including being a general nuisance on top of breaking the law. But if for the purpose of stats its just easier to use breaking the law and crime figures based on that just go ahead with that...........

In that case, the answer is most definitely Yes, Gypsies do break the law more often than the general population.

When I was travelling, I broke the law most of the time.

I used to camp illegally. I didn't have a waste-carriers licence, (need a perminent  address to get one) I didn't comply with time restrictions for driving a goods vehicle. (hard to comply when your hours are up but the police are making you move on),

Anyway there is lots of stuff in the same vein..  not sending the kids to school, tethering horses on the grass verge, "Stealing" water from a stand-pipe, poaching..... yada yada.

Now. Down to statistics. Statistics might say that Gypsies commit more crime. I don't know for sure, the powers that be are very sensitive about releasing such information. (Imagine the uproar if they revealed that we commit less crime than the general population?)

What the statistics don't take into account is the fact that Gypsies are suspected more, accused more, stopped more, searched more, arrested more, and convicted more.

Thanks Andrew, excellent question.

Thanks for the answer. I hope you know me well enough to know I wasn't taking the piss or 'owt 

Of course. I was genuinely glad you asked the question.

[rex008]

Do these 'Irish Travellers' and 'New age travellers' often call themselves Gypsies when they shouldn't?

Irish Travellers, No. They are an ethnic minority in their own right, and proud to be so.

New-age travellers, yes  they are just members of the general population who, for one reason or another, decide to try to live a Gypsy lifestyle. They often live in large groups in conditions that wouldn't suit real Gypsies at all, and they indulge in practices that we wouldn't want to be associated with.

Now I have absolutely nothing against this, as long as they don't call themselves Gypsies.

They are usually very well educated, and it doesn't take them long to realise that they can benefit from the (Admittedly few) laws that have been put in place to protect the lifestyle of real ethnic Gypsies.  

Does this cause friction/resentment between Gypsies and new-age travellers? Hard to put myself in your position, but it sounds like it might.

[Claw75]

Well done on the Diet Tom - you are on course to lose a Stone in about 3 weeks. Proper dieting, that.

You feeling better - mentally, physically?

Target weight decided yet, or just see how it goes?

 

I feel wonderful. I could bite a tiger.

I'm surprised that the diet is going so well. I think it's down to two basic reasons.

1: I was ready. I mean really ready. I was fed up with stuffing my face with crap whether I wanted it or not. I was sick of feeling bloated and listless.

1: Weighing myself every day and posting the result every day. It's a real motivation to do well. when I'm tempted to eat something I shouldn't, I think about my weigh in the next morning and how much I will hate to post a gain, whereas if I weigh once a week, I can eat and kid myself that I will have time to work it off before the next weigh in.

Initially, I want to get below 14st and then re-evaluate.

I think I will probably decide on around 13st 7lb and then try to work out a good maintenance diet.   

Spot on Tom. As you know, & contrary to popular belief, I've always sworn by that system. Daily, withoit fail. It means there is no escape clause.

I think the once a week weighers kid themselves, though I do not mean that rudely. Setting a target of 4lbs a month is not dieting, it's just eating better, which is a good thing, of course. Any half-serious diet should result, all things being equal, in a loss of a stone per month. Which just requires discipline.

PS - Missed my lunchtime soup & salad today, had nothing, for a variety of reasons, & for the first time since I began this diet, I felt hungry this afternoon. If I lose the routine, I'm beaten.

I was always led to believe that crash dieting was bad and that, the slower the weight comes off, the easier it is to keep off.

old wives tale or true? (i'm asking people that actually know about this stuff btw )

[RED-DOG]

Well done on the Diet Tom - you are on course to lose a Stone in about 3 weeks. Proper dieting, that.

You feeling better - mentally, physically?

Target weight decided yet, or just see how it goes?

 

I feel wonderful. I could bite a tiger.

I'm surprised that the diet is going so well. I think it's down to two basic reasons.

1: I was ready. I mean really ready. I was fed up with stuffing my face with crap whether I wanted it or not. I was sick of feeling bloated and listless.

1: Weighing myself every day and posting the result every day. It's a real motivation to do well. when I'm tempted to eat something I shouldn't, I think about my weigh in the next morning and how much I will hate to post a gain, whereas if I weigh once a week, I can eat and kid myself that I will have time to work it off before the next weigh in.

Initially, I want to get below 14st and then re-evaluate.

I think I will probably decide on around 13st 7lb and then try to work out a good maintenance diet.   

Spot on Tom. As you know, & contrary to popular belief, I've always sworn by that system. Daily, withoit fail. It means there is no escape clause.

I think the once a week weighers kid themselves, though I do not mean that rudely. Setting a target of 4lbs a month is not dieting, it's just eating better, which is a good thing, of course. Any half-serious diet should result, all things being equal, in a loss of a stone per month. Which just requires discipline.

PS - Missed my lunchtime soup & salad today, had nothing, for a variety of reasons, & for the first time since I began this diet, I felt hungry this afternoon. If I lose the routine, I'm beaten.

I was always led to believe that crash dieting was bad and that, the slower the weight comes off, the easier it is to keep off.

old wives tale or true? (i'm asking people that actually know about this stuff btw )

Do you think mine is a crash diet? (I dunno, I'm just asking)

[Claw75]

Well done on the Diet Tom - you are on course to lose a Stone in about 3 weeks. Proper dieting, that.

You feeling better - mentally, physically?

Target weight decided yet, or just see how it goes?

 

I feel wonderful. I could bite a tiger.

I'm surprised that the diet is going so well. I think it's down to two basic reasons.

1: I was ready. I mean really ready. I was fed up with stuffing my face with crap whether I wanted it or not. I was sick of feeling bloated and listless.

1: Weighing myself every day and posting the result every day. It's a real motivation to do well. when I'm tempted to eat something I shouldn't, I think about my weigh in the next morning and how much I will hate to post a gain, whereas if I weigh once a week, I can eat and kid myself that I will have time to work it off before the next weigh in.

Initially, I want to get below 14st and then re-evaluate.

I think I will probably decide on around 13st 7lb and then try to work out a good maintenance diet.   

Spot on Tom. As you know, & contrary to popular belief, I've always sworn by that system. Daily, withoit fail. It means there is no escape clause.

I think the once a week weighers kid themselves, though I do not mean that rudely. Setting a target of 4lbs a month is not dieting, it's just eating better, which is a good thing, of course. Any half-serious diet should result, all things being equal, in a loss of a stone per month. Which just requires discipline.

PS - Missed my lunchtime soup & salad today, had nothing, for a variety of reasons, & for the first time since I began this diet, I felt hungry this afternoon. If I lose the routine, I'm beaten.

I was always led to believe that crash dieting was bad and that, the slower the weight comes off, the easier it is to keep off.

old wives tale or true? (i'm asking people that actually know about this stuff btw )

Do you think mine is a crash diet? (I dunno, I'm just asking)

I dunno either - you've not really been posting full details of what you've been eating and stuff, but I'm assuming you're not doing anything as drastic as living on oxo cubes and lettuce?

[RED-DOG]

Do these 'Irish Travellers' and 'New age travellers' often call themselves Gypsies when they shouldn't?

Irish Travellers, No. They are an ethnic minority in their own right, and proud to be so.

New-age travellers, yes  they are just members of the general population who, for one reason or another, decide to try to live a Gypsy lifestyle. They often live in large groups in conditions that wouldn't suit real Gypsies at all, and they indulge in practices that we wouldn't want to be associated with.

Now I have absolutely nothing against this, as long as they don't call themselves Gypsies.

They are usually very well educated, and it doesn't take them long to realise that they can benefit from the (Admittedly few) laws that have been put in place to protect the lifestyle of real ethnic Gypsies.  

Does this cause friction/resentment between Gypsies and new-age travellers? Hard to put myself in your position, but it sounds like it might.

Yes it does. They pretend to be Gypsies, or in some cases believe that they are Gypsies just because they have decided to live in caravans and wear earrings.  They do things that get us a bad name, or that we would be ashamed of.

One group is even employed by a local authority to advise on site construction and cultural issues. They bill themselves as a "Gypsy and Traveller advisory group". I asked to speak to one of their Gypsy representatives, but as soon as they realised that I was actually a Gypsy myself, they refused to speak to me again.

[bobAlike]

Out of interest Tom how far back can you trace your history and where did your ancestors originate from?

[RED-DOG]

Well done on the Diet Tom - you are on course to lose a Stone in about 3 weeks. Proper dieting, that.

You feeling better - mentally, physically?

Target weight decided yet, or just see how it goes?

 

I feel wonderful. I could bite a tiger.

I'm surprised that the diet is going so well. I think it's down to two basic reasons.

1: I was ready. I mean really ready. I was fed up with stuffing my face with crap whether I wanted it or not. I was sick of feeling bloated and listless.

1: Weighing myself every day and posting the result every day. It's a real motivation to do well. when I'm tempted to eat something I shouldn't, I think about my weigh in the next morning and how much I will hate to post a gain, whereas if I weigh once a week, I can eat and kid myself that I will have time to work it off before the next weigh in.

Initially, I want to get below 14st and then re-evaluate.

I think I will probably decide on around 13st 7lb and then try to work out a good maintenance diet.   

Spot on Tom. As you know, & contrary to popular belief, I've always sworn by that system. Daily, withoit fail. It means there is no escape clause.

I think the once a week weighers kid themselves, though I do not mean that rudely. Setting a target of 4lbs a month is not dieting, it's just eating better, which is a good thing, of course. Any half-serious diet should result, all things being equal, in a loss of a stone per month. Which just requires discipline.

PS - Missed my lunchtime soup & salad today, had nothing, for a variety of reasons, & for the first time since I began this diet, I felt hungry this afternoon. If I lose the routine, I'm beaten.

I was always led to believe that crash dieting was bad and that, the slower the weight comes off, the easier it is to keep off.

old wives tale or true? (i'm asking people that actually know about this stuff btw )

Do you think mine is a crash diet? (I dunno, I'm just asking)

I dunno either - you've not really been posting full details of what you've been eating and stuff, but I'm assuming you're not doing anything as drastic as living on oxo cubes and lettuce?

I exorcise first thing, and then get on with other stuff until after 11am, then I have my breakfast which usually consists of two dry-fried eggs and a slice of ham on two slices of dry toasted wholemeal seeded bread. Sometimes I have beans on instead.

At around 3pm I have an apple, a pear, a small bunch of grapes, half a persimmon, a banana, and a bit of whatever other fruit (melon, kiwi, mango etc) happens to be available. These I cut up into big bowl and mix in about half a cup of yoghurt. It's absolutely delicious, my favourite meal of the day.

At around 8pm I have whatever meat the rest of the family have had earlier, (They eat at around 6pm) this is usually chicken or fish, but sometimes red meat. They sometimes have potatoes or pasta, but I always have mine with salad or vegetables.

If the family are having a high calorie tea, I make myself something different entirely.

If I get hungry between meals, I have a mug of veggie soup or oxo.

[Claw75]

Well done on the Diet Tom - you are on course to lose a Stone in about 3 weeks. Proper dieting, that.

You feeling better - mentally, physically?

Target weight decided yet, or just see how it goes?

 

I feel wonderful. I could bite a tiger.

I'm surprised that the diet is going so well. I think it's down to two basic reasons.

1: I was ready. I mean really ready. I was fed up with stuffing my face with crap whether I wanted it or not. I was sick of feeling bloated and listless.

1: Weighing myself every day and posting the result every day. It's a real motivation to do well. when I'm tempted to eat something I shouldn't, I think about my weigh in the next morning and how much I will hate to post a gain, whereas if I weigh once a week, I can eat and kid myself that I will have time to work it off before the next weigh in.

Initially, I want to get below 14st and then re-evaluate.

I think I will probably decide on around 13st 7lb and then try to work out a good maintenance diet.   

Spot on Tom. As you know, & contrary to popular belief, I've always sworn by that system. Daily, withoit fail. It means there is no escape clause.

I think the once a week weighers kid themselves, though I do not mean that rudely. Setting a target of 4lbs a month is not dieting, it's just eating better, which is a good thing, of course. Any half-serious diet should result, all things being equal, in a loss of a stone per month. Which just requires discipline.

PS - Missed my lunchtime soup & salad today, had nothing, for a variety of reasons, & for the first time since I began this diet, I felt hungry this afternoon. If I lose the routine, I'm beaten.

I was always led to believe that crash dieting was bad and that, the slower the weight comes off, the easier it is to keep off.

old wives tale or true? (i'm asking people that actually know about this stuff btw )

Do you think mine is a crash diet? (I dunno, I'm just asking)

I dunno either - you've not really been posting full details of what you've been eating and stuff, but I'm assuming you're not doing anything as drastic as living on oxo cubes and lettuce?

I exorcise first thing, and then get on with other stuff until after 11am, then I have my breakfast which usually consists of two dry-fried eggs and a slice of ham on two slices of dry toasted wholemeal seeded bread. Sometimes I have beans on instead.

At around 3pm I have an apple, a pear, a small bunch of grapes, half a persimmon, a banana, and a bit of whatever other fruit (melon, kiwi, mango etc) happens to be available. These I cut up into big bowl and mix in about half a cup of yoghurt. It's absolutely delicious, my favourite meal of the day.

At around 8pm I have whatever meat the rest of the family have had earlier, (They eat at around 6pm) this is usually chicken or fish, but sometimes red meat. They sometimes have potatoes or pasta, but I always have mine with salad or vegetables.

If the family are having a high calorie tea, I make myself something different entirely.

If I get hungry between meals, I have a mug of veggie soup or oxo.

sounds fine to me, but i have no idea about this kind of thing.

why are you exorcising first thing?  do you have a ghost?

[gatso]

exorcising moles innit