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Author Topic: Hand Analysis - THE FLOP - Small Blind  (Read 6195 times)
The Truth
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« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2005, 01:06:41 PM »

of course there is every chance but this is a hypothetical scenario with no info on the players. If I had my way the hand would have finished with my pre-flop raise of 50k.
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The Baron
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« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2005, 02:09:34 PM »

Wow - a nasty little problem. A fold or a raise pre flop was the way to go for me purely because this dilemma is awful.

I would check - fold.
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Harry Demetriou
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« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2005, 02:10:40 PM »

sorry harry if i'm jumping ahead of myself!! Sad

Don't worry there's plenty of time before we get to the cut off and his up and down straight draw;-)

Anyone thinking of checking with a view to check raising from the small blind depending on what happens after you check and it getting back to you?

Do you think the 9 or K has hit anyone or that anyone will bet if you check?

If you put a big bet would you have a decent chance of winning the pot right now?

......and a silly point here but not totally irrelevant .....can you see how you could play this in many different ways depending on how many opponents you have and how much stronger your hand would be if you had Ax suited in hearts? (Does this tell you something about why they tell you that in games like Omaha (high or hi/lo) and in big bet poker you should only ever be drawing to the nut flush and in exceptional circumstances the non nut flush?).

So many questions and too few answers yet we love playing this game so much.

I'm going to read some more replies but wait a while before expressing my thinking and those of a few others I know on this bit of the analysis.
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TightEnd
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« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2005, 02:14:54 PM »

Wow - a nasty little problem. A fold or a raise pre flop was the way to go for me purely because this dilemma is awful.

I would check - fold.

me too


I still can't believe Harry dismissed the pre flop steal raise so easily  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


and Harry....you check the SB here with a view to re-raising? Blimey!  Shocked

I think the 9 or the K will have hit someone, and I think someone bets

If at that point the field has been narrowed to bettor and me, out of position with a marginal draw.....I have to consider whether the check raise knocks him off his hand....only problem is the guy can bet with a strong K or a weak king or a draw or trips.....no way of knowing if you can knock him off, unless the bet size screams weakness
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Harry Demetriou
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« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2005, 02:15:31 PM »

of course there is every chance but this is a hypothetical scenario with no info on the players. If I had my way the hand would have finished with my pre-flop raise of 50k.

This is not hypothetical but a real scenario from a real tournament played in the USA recently.

If I had more info on the players I would give it but the cut off (you) just moved to the table and the small blind (your student) hasn't developed the art of paying attention to his opponents as he is relatively new to poker.

This is often the case unless you have had years of experience playing the same opponents and even if you have played previously aganst them good players have a habit of changing the way they play and people are affected by winning and losing big pots.
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Harry Demetriou
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« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2005, 02:18:48 PM »

Wow - a nasty little problem. A fold or a raise pre flop was the way to go for me purely because this dilemma is awful.

I would check - fold.

me too


I still can't believe Harry dismissed the pre flop steal raise so easily  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


and Harry....you check the SB here with a view to re-raising? Blimey!  Shocked

I think the 9 or the K will have hit someone, and I think someone bets

If at that point the field has been narrowed to bettor and me, out of position with a marginal draw.....I have to consider whether the check raise knocks him off his hand....only problem is the guy can bet with a strong K or a weak king or a draw or trips.....no way of knowing if you can knock him off, unless the bet size screams weakness


These are just questions I am raising that would appear to me to be relevant and not necessarily what I would or would not do.

My views come before the next stage of the problem after you all decide what you would/should do.

We are going to be on the flop for a while and yes - you all guessed it - it's going to get even harder ;-)

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ifm
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« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2005, 03:17:53 PM »

i thought a double belly buster meant there are two possible cards to give him a straight on the next card (eg if you hold J-9 on a K-10-7 flop then both the Q and the 8 give you the straight)

correct
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ifm
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« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2005, 03:30:44 PM »

right, i would be thinking that this is probably the best flop i could hope for apart from pairing, but i ain't greedy Cheesy
The chances of someone else having a higher flush draw are minimal and i'm not worried about that at all yet.
That will hopefully reveal itself thru the hand.
I feel the best way to gain information from here on in would be to check and see the betting, if there is a raiser (i'd expect pos 1 or 2 to) i will pop in a min reraise again to gauge reaction.
I feel i can't raise here because i can't call a reraise, after all i have nothing at all.
A check-raise shows strength and if it were reraised it shows maniac/big made hand.
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« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2005, 03:33:38 PM »

I would have called pre-flop, hoping for the perfect flop. This isn't it. It has hit me just enough to get me into big trouble, particularly as it is a near certainty that several others have a part of this board.

Right now my hand is filth with a few dreams attached. Check and await developments.
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Bongo
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« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2005, 03:37:52 PM »

I'd check and see what happens.

I don't want to bet out with such a crap hand and so many people still in; one of them is very likely to have a hand they want to carry on playing and even if it's only a drawing hand it still figures to be better than mine.

However, I'm not giving up on the hand just yet, I get to see everyone elses actions before having to make that decision - who knows a favourably situation might emerge.

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Harry Demetriou
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« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2005, 06:51:25 PM »

Time to move on to the next step which will be titled Complex Hand Analysis - THE FLOP - CUT OFF Position

 

This is not a great flop for you despite offering you some hope for winning the hand but your position in having to act first against five rivals should make you feel very uncomfortable.

You obviously cannot fold in the small blind with  but if you decide to bet you have to try and work out how much you will bet and ascertain whether or not you are going to call a reraise and from whom and for how much. Against this many people I think you had better check and hope it goes all the way around.

There are no hard and fast rules but the problem with betting here is that one of your opponents can easily raise you out of this pot and generally speaking if you can't take a re raise then you shouldn't bet in the first place.

This was unraised pre flop and as such you have very little information about your opponents hands so you need more information and although you can get information by betting (and possibly winning if you bet enough and everyone else has nothing or a weak hand with which they can't call) this is likely to cost you too much if you should get re raised as you will be forced to fold.

Do either of the first two limpers pre flop have a big pair, has someone flopped a draw or top pair or a set and if they have are you prepared to bet enough to push them off their hand with a pot sized bet? These are just some of the questions you need to ask yourself and the texture of this flop is very likely to have helped at least one of your opponents with their pre flop limps.

If one of your opponents has top pair then you know his kicker is likely to be another high card and so in the absence of a pre flop raise it's going to be a tough lay down for them as they will not believe you hold an AK but if it's a suited King in hearts then you could be drawing practically dead.

However no limit poker is not a game for whimps and you can't go around being scared and fearing your opponents could be holding monsters or better hands than you so lets just tough it out and check and make a decision when and if the action gets back round to you.

One player when asked about being in the small blind considered the check raise but being out of position this is unlikely to get you a free card and without an overcad if you get called by the flop betttor(s) you know you are going to be a mile behind and once again you have to consider whether you really want to put a lot of chips into a pot like this which at present really amounts to a nothing (or Cool high albeit it with some anticipated flush outs. Should you choose to play this hand in this manner then I believe you are better off playing it like a winner and amking abig initial bet or reraise but even though you give yourself a chance to pick up the pot there and then is way too risky a play against so many rivals.

Anyway the player concerned with this actual hand checked as did the big blind and the first two pre flop limpers so the action got around to the cut off and his
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