river plan?

[MANTIS01]

The other big advantage of c-calling the river is you may not go broke vs this hand, whereas if you lead you certainly will.

Lead/folding is fine. You lose less vs a straight which will usually bet more than we will on the river if we check.

Your lead may be less than his vb if you check, true, but it may not be. Anyway you will never win the pot with this line.

[NoflopsHomer]

The other big advantage of c-calling the river is you may not go broke vs this hand, whereas if you lead you certainly will.

Lead/folding is fine. You lose less vs a straight which will usually bet more than we will on the river if we check.

Your lead may be less than his vb if you check, true, but it may not be. Anyway you will never win the pot with this line.

Huh? This makes no sense as an argument against the lead/fold, how does check/calling necessarily win you the pot? This isn't a spot where some sort of move will ever win us the pot, we're either beat or not and if the villain has the straight, he isn't folding.

The river is a horrible spot to bluff because 7x makes up a good chunk of our range. If we're checking, it should be because we're checking to fold. And we never go broke by lead/folding, because we fold...and by leading occasionally we get value by some missed draw which makes top pair on the river or some funky played overpair or two pair.

We also lose less vs 7x which might not see much value in raising knowing that we fold all hands without a 7 now but jam J-T and probs T-7. However the villain, holding a 7 or better, will most likely bet more than we would if we had lead the river.

If the villain bets 3/4 to full pot will you still call?

I think this hand becomes a lot more fascinating when we DO have 7x and get jammed on the river...

[Royal Flush]

The other big advantage of c-calling the river is you may not go broke vs this hand, whereas if you lead you certainly will.

How do you go broke if you lead fold??

More likely to go broke when you check and he jams

[Sweetman]

The other big advantage of c-calling the river is you may not go broke vs this hand, whereas if you lead you certainly will.

Lead/folding is fine. You lose less vs a straight which will usually bet more than we will on the river if we check.

Your lead may be less than his vb if you check, true, but it may not be. Anyway you will never win the pot with this line.

Huh? This makes no sense as an argument against the lead/fold, how does check/calling necessarily win you the pot? This isn't a spot where some sort of move will ever win us the pot, we're either beat or not and if the villain has the straight, he isn't folding.

The river is a horrible spot to bluff because 7x makes up a good chunk of our range. If we're checking, it should be because we're checking to fold. And we never go broke by lead/folding, because we fold...and by leading occasionally we get value by some missed draw which makes top pair on the river or some funky played overpair or two pair.

We also lose less vs 7x which might not see much value in raising knowing that we fold all hands without a 7 now but jam J-T and probs T-7. However the villain, holding a 7 or better, will most likely bet more than we would if we had lead the river.

If the villain bets 3/4 to full pot will you still call?

I think this hand becomes a lot more fascinating when we DO have 7x and get jammed on the river...

I disagree here, we can check call here for value against many opponents as:

Hands he calls a VB with that we beat < hands he bets the river with that we beat (bluffs)


Having said that, if we check and he bets more than half the pot it becomes a tough call.

Leading the river allows us to block bet to some extent and we can happily fold if we get raised.

Both the check call and the bet fold are decent river strategies here, and with it being so early in the tourney, its hard to decide with option yields the best results against the opponent.  I lean towards the check call on this occasion, as I feel that missed draws make up more of the opponents range than any hands with a 7 (IMO, a 7 would have bet the turn).

[MANTIS01]

The other big advantage of c-calling the river is you may not go broke vs this hand, whereas if you lead you certainly will.

How do you go broke if you lead fold??

More likely to go broke when you check and he jams

How are you doing anything other than betting for information if you lead fold?? I agree with sweetman that his bluff range is a good deal higher than his calling range on this board. Also he can't think a jam gets called here given the action/board early in tournament so will prob v-bet much lower than a jam with the nutz.

[AlexMartin]

The other big advantage of c-calling the river is you may not go broke vs this hand, whereas if you lead you certainly will.

Lead/folding is fine. You lose less vs a straight which will usually bet more than we will on the river if we check.

you also make nothing v bluffs which is gonna be at least 50% of his range. Obv ur not calling a massive bet in this spot as there is no need. Not intending to level myself and call a shove.

[Cf]

I also bet/fold.

Given that board it is highly unlikely he is going to raise without the straight here.

If you bet and he raises then you can feel quite comfortable in the fact that you're beat. If he does raise as a bluff then hats off to the guy, but against most players I'd feel happy laying this down.

If you opt to check/call then the bet you'll be calling is probably going to be a lot bigger than the one you made yourself.

[Royal Flush]

The other big advantage of c-calling the river is you may not go broke vs this hand, whereas if you lead you certainly will.

Lead/folding is fine. You lose less vs a straight which will usually bet more than we will on the river if we check.

you also make nothing v bluffs which is gonna be at least 50% of his range. Obv ur not calling a massive bet in this spot as there is no need. Not intending to level myself and call a shove.

lol Alex people don't bluff these spots, ever!

[MANTIS01]

The other big advantage of c-calling the river is you may not go broke vs this hand, whereas if you lead you certainly will.

Lead/folding is fine. You lose less vs a straight which will usually bet more than we will on the river if we check.

you also make nothing v bluffs which is gonna be at least 50% of his range. Obv ur not calling a massive bet in this spot as there is no need. Not intending to level myself and call a shove.

lol Alex people don't bluff these spots, ever!

C'mon James. That just isn't so. Why are people on Blonde so determined to give their oppos so much credit by saying they NEVER make a mistake. James doesn't bluff these spots...so NOBODY bluffs these spots is lol imo. If you lead the river and your oppo folds you find out he had a f/d or air. Well done. How much money you made? If you lead and he jams you find out he has 10-J. Well done. How much money you made? You only make money if he calls, what will be a pretty significant bet, with a worse hand. That is pretty unlikely imo...and would be a mistake. But this guy NEVER makes mistakes...cos he NEVER bluffs if you check, remember.

[Sweetman]

Flushy,

If villain has air/missed draw on the river he will correctly realise he can only win the pot with a bluff.

Are you seriously saying players don't ever bluff in this spot? In that case, I suppose players dont ever float on the turn either..........

[Royal Flush]

Flushy,

If villain has air/missed draw on the river he will correctly realise he can only win the pot with a bluff.

Unless he is a moron he will realise he can't win the hand at all, i dont remember reading that the guy was a moron in the OP's post.

[MANTIS01]

Flushy,

If villain has air/missed draw on the river he will correctly realise he can only win the pot with a bluff.

Unless he is a moron he will realise he can't win the hand at all, i dont remember reading that the guy was a moron in the OP's post.

It's 25/50 and the guy calls 320 from 2.1k chasing a straight draw, on a double suited board, and can't bluff the river if he doesn't hit. He also raised ghey 130 pre. Yeah, I'd say he's a moron. Why give him due credit for being anthing else? Even if you just guessed he was you'd prob be right.

[Royal Flush]

It's 25/50 and the guy calls 320 from 2.1k chasing a straight draw

Because it looks like we have a hand so is not a bad idea to call 320 because lots of mugs stack the river.

[totalise]

I dont bet, and I dont call if he bets... river play in these spots seem to be (incorrectly or not) very face up.. and I cant see them calling with a hand you beat very often, and I cant see them betting with a hand that you beat very often

C'mon James. That just isn't so. Why are people on Blonde so determined to give their oppos so much credit by saying they NEVER make a mistake. James doesn't bluff these spots...so NOBODY bluffs these spots is lol imo. If you lead the river and your oppo folds you find out he had a f/d or air. Well done. How much money you made? If you lead and he jams you find out he has 10-J. Well done. How much money you made? You only make money if he calls, what will be a pretty significant bet, with a worse hand. That is pretty unlikely imo...and would be a mistake. But this guy NEVER makes mistakes...cos he NEVER bluffs if you check, remember.

Its not that they NEVER bluff, but it has to be a tendancy that is prevalent in a fair % of players in order to justify calling. Sure, sometimes people will bluff the river, and will steal the pot, but similarly, you cant justify calling on the basis that a smalll % of poker players might or might not bluff in these spots. Its the frequency of which an action might occur that should be the important factor.

[hatthehole]

It's 25/50 and the guy calls 320 from 2.1k chasing a straight draw

Because it looks like we have a hand so is not a bad idea to call 320 because lots of mugs stack the river.

qft

**sigh**