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The Camel
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« Reply #90 on: November 14, 2010, 10:15:25 AM »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-11751268

"They have the right to remember them [those killed in war] in your own way and we have the right to remember them in our own way and we shouldn't interfere with each other's [ways].

"In this way we can live in a society in harmony.

"It's a matter of respecting each other, it's not a matter of religion. In a society, whether we're Christian or Muslims, we should respect each other."

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« Reply #91 on: November 14, 2010, 11:25:57 AM »

For people who actually want to do things about this (like myself)

http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/

Is the only answer, AND WE ARE NOT RACIST!
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Claw75
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« Reply #92 on: November 14, 2010, 11:28:14 AM »

I think there are some great points on here.

Dan you are hanging on to a kind of shibboleth here with no real solid foundation. As many have said, there is no such thing as complete freedom of speech, lines are drawn all the time, you know this because you and the team here draw them all the time.

There are situations where someone elses freedom limits mine, so we stop them and we all have different lines - there is no blanket "I defend yr right...etc" that makes any se

The people who have fought and died to protect this country were protecting our freedom - which encompasses many things, such as the basic human rights including the freedom of speech/expression.  Not for one second am I condoning these idiotic actions, but if you look beyond their motives and reasoning, the fact they could do such a thing in this country is actually an indication that we do (to a degree, and that's a whole debate in itself) have a country that allows a great degree of freedom and civil liberties.

Imagine if someone burned a koran in a muslim state, such as Iran or Saudi Arabia?  Do you think they would have been allowed the freedom to make such a protest (for whatever their reasons)? Would there be a debate about their right to demonstrate using non-violent means?  Doesn't that say something about what many have died to protect? 

You're right. And the poppy-burners are using that freedom to make mugs of the people who provide it for them. What part of their message had any value that would legitimise it as a reasonable protest? Sure we should support freedom of expression and the right to protest but they choose the time they did to incite hatred and promote racial violence. Being passionate about your tolerant values shouldn't blind you to common sense. You are a tolerant and reasonable guy. If you get home to find your best friend in bed with your wife then kicking your friend very hard in the bollox doesn't mean you're not a reasonable and tolerant guy.

Fighting a war over oil and killing civilians (how many? Don't know, we haven't the decency to keep count), might just piss off people originating from those countries or areas. Just a thought.



If their motive was to protest about the occupation of Afghanistan I would support their right to free speech. In fact I would encourage their protest because such a serious issue should be kept in the spotlight. I'd say the majority of the country want our troops out of Afghanistan and I suspect the troops don't want to be there either so their message would receive some good support. There are lots of credible ways to protest as well. So how good a strategy is burning poppies in front of grieving widows? It's only a good strategy if your motive is to spread hate. Rod, if you were at the funeral of somebody you loved and strangers started shouting abuse you would drop this right to free speech shit in about one second. You'd feel a bit of respect was your basic right and you would react furiously. It's inconsistent to want that respect for yourself but not want to offer it to other people in return. I think promoting basic respect for each other is probably more important than free speech if you want a peaceful world. Allowing people to hate on each other in public doesn't make for a more ideal society.

spot on imo
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Acidmouse
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« Reply #93 on: November 14, 2010, 11:43:40 AM »

For people who actually want to do things about this (like myself)

http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/

Is the only answer, AND WE ARE NOT RACIST!

sadly the Defence league may not be racist but most people that follow them are..
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SammyA
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« Reply #94 on: November 14, 2010, 11:46:10 AM »

For people who actually want to do things about this (like myself)

http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/

Is the only answer, AND WE ARE NOT RACIST!

sadly the Defence league may not be racist but most people that follow them are..

Very small minority. and it is discouraged and not promoted nor discussed at meetings or marches.
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CelticGeezeer
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« Reply #95 on: November 14, 2010, 11:49:38 AM »

For people who actually want to do things about this (like myself)

http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/

Is the only answer, AND WE ARE NOT RACIST!

sadly the Defence league may not be racist but most people that follow them are..

Very small minority. and it is discouraged and not promoted nor discussed at meetings or marches.


Gotta love the BNP boys pretending that its only Muslims they don't like now.
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Rod Paradise
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« Reply #96 on: November 14, 2010, 04:05:07 PM »

I think there are some great points on here.

Dan you are hanging on to a kind of shibboleth here with no real solid foundation. As many have said, there is no such thing as complete freedom of speech, lines are drawn all the time, you know this because you and the team here draw them all the time.

There are situations where someone elses freedom limits mine, so we stop them and we all have different lines - there is no blanket "I defend yr right...etc" that makes any se

The people who have fought and died to protect this country were protecting our freedom - which encompasses many things, such as the basic human rights including the freedom of speech/expression.  Not for one second am I condoning these idiotic actions, but if you look beyond their motives and reasoning, the fact they could do such a thing in this country is actually an indication that we do (to a degree, and that's a whole debate in itself) have a country that allows a great degree of freedom and civil liberties.

Imagine if someone burned a koran in a muslim state, such as Iran or Saudi Arabia?  Do you think they would have been allowed the freedom to make such a protest (for whatever their reasons)? Would there be a debate about their right to demonstrate using non-violent means?  Doesn't that say something about what many have died to protect?  

You're right. And the poppy-burners are using that freedom to make mugs of the people who provide it for them. What part of their message had any value that would legitimise it as a reasonable protest? Sure we should support freedom of expression and the right to protest but they choose the time they did to incite hatred and promote racial violence. Being passionate about your tolerant values shouldn't blind you to common sense. You are a tolerant and reasonable guy. If you get home to find your best friend in bed with your wife then kicking your friend very hard in the bollox doesn't mean you're not a reasonable and tolerant guy.

Fighting a war over oil and killing civilians (how many? Don't know, we haven't the decency to keep count), might just piss off people originating from those countries or areas. Just a thought.



If their motive was to protest about the occupation of Afghanistan I would support their right to free speech. In fact I would encourage their protest because such a serious issue should be kept in the spotlight. I'd say the majority of the country want our troops out of Afghanistan and I suspect the troops don't want to be there either so their message would receive some good support. There are lots of credible ways to protest as well. So how good a strategy is burning poppies in front of grieving widows? It's only a good strategy if your motive is to spread hate. Rod, if you were at the funeral of somebody you loved and strangers started shouting abuse you would drop this right to free speech shit in about one second. You'd feel a bit of respect was your basic right and you would react furiously. It's inconsistent to want that respect for yourself but not want to offer it to other people in return. I think promoting basic respect for each other is probably more important than free speech if you want a peaceful world. Allowing people to hate on each other in public doesn't make for a more ideal society.

Your level of comprehension is nearly as bad as Geos - I've already said they are idiots - as usual the the people who demonstrate are the most angered and the least likely to apply reason to their anger, who then supply ammunition to those they are most angry at to undermine the point of their argument/protest. You asked what part of their message had any value. I answered, the fact that that part was ignored by the extremist press as well is a joint fail by the protestors & the headline chasing of the press.

Geo's already started on the demonstration at Celtic Park - note he brought it up not me, what the press in Scotland refuse to publish, even though they have been given the statement, is that the white poppy which represents all the victims of war & not just those in uniform, would have been welcome on the jersey, but hey, that wouldn't give self righteous arseholes a pedestal to stand on, would it?

And watching Japanese & German footballers forced to wear a poppy to carry out their jobs as footballers sickened me last year, it was wrong. The poppy should be a personal choice, not an impostition. All credit to the England manager for not wearing one.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 04:11:07 PM by Rod Paradise » Logged

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« Reply #97 on: November 14, 2010, 04:06:14 PM »

For people who actually want to do things about this (like myself)

http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/

Is the only answer, AND WE ARE NOT RACIST!

Thankfully these racist scum are scared to try their shit in Scotland - stood cowering behind police lines last time they tried it.
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Woodsey
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« Reply #98 on: November 14, 2010, 04:17:04 PM »

For people who actually want to do things about this (like myself)

http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/

Is the only answer, AND WE ARE NOT RACIST!

Thankfully these racist scum are scared to try their shit in Scotland - stood cowering behind police lines last time they tried it.

Cus they know Scots are racist against them............
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nirvana
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« Reply #99 on: November 14, 2010, 05:08:01 PM »

To Rod's point (and he has few) there is a small element of tyranny about poppy wearing - certainly shouldn't be imposed on public figures
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StuartHopkin
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« Reply #100 on: November 15, 2010, 11:47:46 AM »

For people who actually want to do things about this (like myself)

http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/

Is the only answer, AND WE ARE NOT RACIST!

Think you may have missed a [  ] from your post somewhere
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kinboshi
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« Reply #101 on: November 15, 2010, 12:24:31 PM »

For people who actually want to do things about this (like myself)

http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/

Is the only answer, AND WE ARE NOT RACIST!

Think you may have missed a [  ] from your post somewhere

Yeah, the leader of the EDL sure didn't join the BNP (in 2004).  Oh I forgot, they're not racist either. 

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Biddy 62
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« Reply #102 on: November 15, 2010, 01:06:12 PM »

Yeah not racist my arse, used to play poker with a lad who was unashamedly racist who supported this lot. His avatar on facebook is a bottle of bleach with the words Ethnic cleanser on it. If you have a racist friend   ......................
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #103 on: November 15, 2010, 04:59:33 PM »

I think there are some great points on here.

Dan you are hanging on to a kind of shibboleth here with no real solid foundation. As many have said, there is no such thing as complete freedom of speech, lines are drawn all the time, you know this because you and the team here draw them all the time.

There are situations where someone elses freedom limits mine, so we stop them and we all have different lines - there is no blanket "I defend yr right...etc" that makes any se

The people who have fought and died to protect this country were protecting our freedom - which encompasses many things, such as the basic human rights including the freedom of speech/expression.  Not for one second am I condoning these idiotic actions, but if you look beyond their motives and reasoning, the fact they could do such a thing in this country is actually an indication that we do (to a degree, and that's a whole debate in itself) have a country that allows a great degree of freedom and civil liberties.

Imagine if someone burned a koran in a muslim state, such as Iran or Saudi Arabia?  Do you think they would have been allowed the freedom to make such a protest (for whatever their reasons)? Would there be a debate about their right to demonstrate using non-violent means?  Doesn't that say something about what many have died to protect?  

You're right. And the poppy-burners are using that freedom to make mugs of the people who provide it for them. What part of their message had any value that would legitimise it as a reasonable protest? Sure we should support freedom of expression and the right to protest but they choose the time they did to incite hatred and promote racial violence. Being passionate about your tolerant values shouldn't blind you to common sense. You are a tolerant and reasonable guy. If you get home to find your best friend in bed with your wife then kicking your friend very hard in the bollox doesn't mean you're not a reasonable and tolerant guy.

Fighting a war over oil and killing civilians (how many? Don't know, we haven't the decency to keep count), might just piss off people originating from those countries or areas. Just a thought.



If their motive was to protest about the occupation of Afghanistan I would support their right to free speech. In fact I would encourage their protest because such a serious issue should be kept in the spotlight. I'd say the majority of the country want our troops out of Afghanistan and I suspect the troops don't want to be there either so their message would receive some good support. There are lots of credible ways to protest as well. So how good a strategy is burning poppies in front of grieving widows? It's only a good strategy if your motive is to spread hate. Rod, if you were at the funeral of somebody you loved and strangers started shouting abuse you would drop this right to free speech shit in about one second. You'd feel a bit of respect was your basic right and you would react furiously. It's inconsistent to want that respect for yourself but not want to offer it to other people in return. I think promoting basic respect for each other is probably more important than free speech if you want a peaceful world. Allowing people to hate on each other in public doesn't make for a more ideal society.

Your level of comprehension is nearly as bad as Geos - I've already said they are idiots - as usual the the people who demonstrate are the most angered and the least likely to apply reason to their anger, who then supply ammunition to those they are most angry at to undermine the point of their argument/protest. You asked what part of their message had any value. I answered, the fact that that part was ignored by the extremist press as well is a joint fail by the protestors & the headline chasing of the press.

Geo's already started on the demonstration at Celtic Park - note he brought it up not me, what the press in Scotland refuse to publish, even though they have been given the statement, is that the white poppy which represents all the victims of war & not just those in uniform, would have been welcome on the jersey, but hey, that wouldn't give self righteous arseholes a pedestal to stand on, would it?

And watching Japanese & German footballers forced to wear a poppy to carry out their jobs as footballers sickened me last year, it was wrong. The poppy should be a personal choice, not an impostition. All credit to the England manager for not wearing one.

Dude, the protesters were members of Muslims Against Crusades which means they are well organised and co-ordinated. Their methods of protest are specifically designed to provoke a hateful reaction and incite racial tensions. With whatever radical group you will find they are very shrewd and strat for the sort of reaction they inevitably get. They use a geuine point such as the occupation of Afghanistan as a vehicle to voice their despise of the west. So in that regard how did they fail to achieve their objective? I'm afraid your simplistic view that the protesters are geuine protesters and their anger has prevented them from applying logic shows a comprehension level significantly lower than mine.
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« Reply #104 on: November 15, 2010, 06:40:29 PM »

I'd be amazed if anyone debating this thought any of those "protesters" were genuine.
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