Independence Referendum

[Ironside]

As I've mentioned before, depending on what assumptions you make about debt, borrowing capacity and oil, you can make an argument for Scotland being better or worse off as an independent nation.

You seem to blame the "tyrants" for everything.  If you gain independence who will you blame when your heavy industries/mines/steel plants are still closed because they are uncompetitive in the global economy?  Who will you blame when there are still no opportunities for your young folk due to them being undercut by international rivals?  How will you nationalise your railways when your borrowing capacity is reduced due to your independence and your borrowing rate increases?

I can see you hate the English, but blaming Westminster for all of your society's ills is not sensible.  I think it's quite possible that Scotland will prosper on it's own, but your last post was just a partisan rant.

Hold it right there.  I don't hate the English.  I hate the little Englander mentality, I hate the tories, I hate UKIP.  But the vast majority of English people I have come across are absolutey stand up people.  I work with many English folk day in day out in my line of work. 

Who would you suggest I blame for the wrongs of Scotland?  We don't govern enough of it ourselves to blame anyone else other than Westminister.  For the powers the Scottish Parliament has I think they do a fine job.  Sure there are  still things they do I don't agree with but with them being closer to us and much more engagement at local level we are able to get things changed quicker. 

If Scotland gets its independence and things go tits up then I will blame the government of the day, but at least it will be a government that we voted for.  So we will have noone to blame but ourselves. 

It is normal to want independence, why wouldn't you.  It's not about hatred as you try and portray.  It's about identity and empowerment. 

There are too many decisions made by a neo-liberal clique for the whole of the UK at the moment that are not in the interest of the people.  Scotland can show a different way is possible and that can be the key to change for all of this island.  I want to seen an independent Scotland/England and Wales and a United Ireland.  I think then we would be better for it, we would have control of our own destiny and we would be much better neighbours. 

As for your point about Oil, its not just about that.  Obviously that is a bug bear because whilst our industries were closed down and nothing was done about it our oil revenues were being used to prop up the City boys.  It was never re-invested.  Our council houses were sold off at much reduced rates and no rebuilding process was put in place to build new, affordable social housing. 

Without the black stuff Scotland still has a very healthy economy.  Scotland’s economy is also based on a much wider range of sectors – including retail, construction, tourism, manufacturing, electronics, textiles, banking, asset management, higher education, the creative sector, fishing, whisky and the thriving food and drink sector.

so if we get an independent Scotland who do we highlanders blame and how do we get them to change, with more people living in Glasgow than the rest of Scotland put together we will just be run by Glasgow instead of London and all the money in aberdoian and Shetland waters will be spent in the central belt of Scotland while we have to sit at 5 miles an hour on our single carriageway roads while oil rig parts are moved on our roads to support Glasgow and Edinburgh rather than London and essex

[Kmac84]

As I've mentioned before, depending on what assumptions you make about debt, borrowing capacity and oil, you can make an argument for Scotland being better or worse off as an independent nation.

You seem to blame the "tyrants" for everything.  If you gain independence who will you blame when your heavy industries/mines/steel plants are still closed because they are uncompetitive in the global economy?  Who will you blame when there are still no opportunities for your young folk due to them being undercut by international rivals?  How will you nationalise your railways when your borrowing capacity is reduced due to your independence and your borrowing rate increases?

I can see you hate the English, but blaming Westminster for all of your society's ills is not sensible.  I think it's quite possible that Scotland will prosper on it's own, but your last post was just a partisan rant.

Hold it right there.  I don't hate the English.  I hate the little Englander mentality, I hate the tories, I hate UKIP.  But the vast majority of English people I have come across are absolutey stand up people.  I work with many English folk day in day out in my line of work. 

Who would you suggest I blame for the wrongs of Scotland?  We don't govern enough of it ourselves to blame anyone else other than Westminister.  For the powers the Scottish Parliament has I think they do a fine job.  Sure there are  still things they do I don't agree with but with them being closer to us and much more engagement at local level we are able to get things changed quicker. 

If Scotland gets its independence and things go tits up then I will blame the government of the day, but at least it will be a government that we voted for.  So we will have noone to blame but ourselves. 

It is normal to want independence, why wouldn't you.  It's not about hatred as you try and portray.  It's about identity and empowerment. 

There are too many decisions made by a neo-liberal clique for the whole of the UK at the moment that are not in the interest of the people.  Scotland can show a different way is possible and that can be the key to change for all of this island.  I want to seen an independent Scotland/England and Wales and a United Ireland.  I think then we would be better for it, we would have control of our own destiny and we would be much better neighbours. 

As for your point about Oil, its not just about that.  Obviously that is a bug bear because whilst our industries were closed down and nothing was done about it our oil revenues were being used to prop up the City boys.  It was never re-invested.  Our council houses were sold off at much reduced rates and no rebuilding process was put in place to build new, affordable social housing. 

Without the black stuff Scotland still has a very healthy economy.  Scotland’s economy is also based on a much wider range of sectors – including retail, construction, tourism, manufacturing, electronics, textiles, banking, asset management, higher education, the creative sector, fishing, whisky and the thriving food and drink sector.

so if we get an independent Scotland who do we highlanders blame and how do we get them to change, with more people living in Glasgow than the rest of Scotland put together we will just be run by Glasgow instead of London and all the money in aberdoian and Shetland waters will be spent in the central belt of Scotland while we have to sit at 5 miles an hour on our single carriageway roads while oil rig parts are moved on our roads to support Glasgow and Edinburgh rather than London and essex

Run by Glasgow, that would be interesting given that the parliament is in Edinburgh.  There will always be power bases that is inevitible, but you have greater control of your power the closer you are to it, I don't accept that the parliament in an Independent Scotland would service just the Central belt, it clearly doesn't do that at the moment if you look at the work that has actually been done.  Remember with independence comes a chance to scrap what we have at the moment as accepted methods, rip up the rule book and start again.  Get yourself out to one of the local meetings Ironside and see how other "Highlanders" want to scope an independent Scotland?

I don't speak for the SNP or even vote for them on a regular basis (tactics aside) but I believe they have offered a greater control to Shetland for example and that recent moves up there have been very much welcomed.  I also understand that Tavish Scott refused to debate with the YES side because all his fear mongering has been defeated time after time on the doorstep. 

[Kmac84]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/almost-at-the-limit/

[Ironside]

As I've mentioned before, depending on what assumptions you make about debt, borrowing capacity and oil, you can make an argument for Scotland being better or worse off as an independent nation.

You seem to blame the "tyrants" for everything.  If you gain independence who will you blame when your heavy industries/mines/steel plants are still closed because they are uncompetitive in the global economy?  Who will you blame when there are still no opportunities for your young folk due to them being undercut by international rivals?  How will you nationalise your railways when your borrowing capacity is reduced due to your independence and your borrowing rate increases?

I can see you hate the English, but blaming Westminster for all of your society's ills is not sensible.  I think it's quite possible that Scotland will prosper on it's own, but your last post was just a partisan rant.

Hold it right there.  I don't hate the English.  I hate the little Englander mentality, I hate the tories, I hate UKIP.  But the vast majority of English people I have come across are absolutey stand up people.  I work with many English folk day in day out in my line of work. 

Who would you suggest I blame for the wrongs of Scotland?  We don't govern enough of it ourselves to blame anyone else other than Westminister.  For the powers the Scottish Parliament has I think they do a fine job.  Sure there are  still things they do I don't agree with but with them being closer to us and much more engagement at local level we are able to get things changed quicker. 

If Scotland gets its independence and things go tits up then I will blame the government of the day, but at least it will be a government that we voted for.  So we will have noone to blame but ourselves. 

It is normal to want independence, why wouldn't you.  It's not about hatred as you try and portray.  It's about identity and empowerment. 

There are too many decisions made by a neo-liberal clique for the whole of the UK at the moment that are not in the interest of the people.  Scotland can show a different way is possible and that can be the key to change for all of this island.  I want to seen an independent Scotland/England and Wales and a United Ireland.  I think then we would be better for it, we would have control of our own destiny and we would be much better neighbours. 

As for your point about Oil, its not just about that.  Obviously that is a bug bear because whilst our industries were closed down and nothing was done about it our oil revenues were being used to prop up the City boys.  It was never re-invested.  Our council houses were sold off at much reduced rates and no rebuilding process was put in place to build new, affordable social housing. 

Without the black stuff Scotland still has a very healthy economy.  Scotland’s economy is also based on a much wider range of sectors – including retail, construction, tourism, manufacturing, electronics, textiles, banking, asset management, higher education, the creative sector, fishing, whisky and the thriving food and drink sector.

so if we get an independent Scotland who do we highlanders blame and how do we get them to change, with more people living in Glasgow than the rest of Scotland put together we will just be run by Glasgow instead of London and all the money in aberdoian and Shetland waters will be spent in the central belt of Scotland while we have to sit at 5 miles an hour on our single carriageway roads while oil rig parts are moved on our roads to support Glasgow and Edinburgh rather than London and essex

Run by Glasgow, that would be interesting given that the parliament is in Edinburgh.  There will always be power bases that is inevitible, but you have greater control of your power the closer you are to it, I don't accept that the parliament in an Independent Scotland would service just the Central belt, it clearly doesn't do that at the moment if you look at the work that has actually been done.  Remember with independence comes a chance to scrap what we have at the moment as accepted methods, rip up the rule book and start again.  Get yourself out to one of the local meetings Ironside and see how other "Highlanders" want to scope an independent Scotland?

I don't speak for the SNP or even vote for them on a regular basis (tactics aside) but I believe they have offered a greater control to Shetland for example and that recent moves up there have been very much welcomed.  I also understand that Tavish Scott refused to debate with the YES side because all his fear mongering has been defeated time after time on the doorstep. 

when I say run by Glasgow I mean it will be run by there votes

I think the devolved parliament has been no better for us up north than London has been

[david3103]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/almost-at-the-limit/

Oh my!

The comments don't exactly fill you with optimism for the future of an Independent Scotland do they?

[Kmac84]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/almost-at-the-limit/

Oh my!

The comments don't exactly fill you with optimism for the future of an Independent Scotland do they?

I didn't read them but opinions are like arseholes. 

But this doesn't fill me with much confidence in the Union when you have elected party leaders spilling this sort of nonsense. 

[DungBeetle]

Point taken that you don't hate English people on an individual level.

I guess the use of the word "tyrants" gave me the impression of venom towards the English on your behalf, but happy to stand corrected.

[Woodsey]

Point taken that you don't hate English people on an individual level.

I guess the use of the word "tyrants" gave me the impression of venom towards the English on your behalf, but happy to stand corrected.

Don't get the difference really it's one and the same, seems an easy cop out saying that, not that I care too much anyway as we all know a certain % of Scots hate us end of......  

[Kmac84]

Point taken that you don't hate English people on an individual level.

I guess the use of the word "tyrants" gave me the impression of venom towards the English on your behalf, but happy to stand corrected.

Don't get the difference really it's one and the same, seems an easy cop out saying that, not that I care too much anyway as we all know a certain % of Scots hate us..... 

I think that's very unfair tbh.  There are arseholes in every walk in life who hate some other group for no other reason than ignorance.  In Scotland we have Catholics hating Protestants, Protestants hating Catholics, Muslims hating Sikhs, Unemployed folk who chose not to work hating foreigners for stealing jobs they won't do.  I'm pretty sure there are elements of English folk who hate Scots.  And we know there is a sizeable element who hate foreigners of any nationality but particularly Europeans. 

I genuninley believe the vast majority of this hatred we see is stirred up by a not impartial media.  In Glasgow for example when Celtic played Rangers in the past the build up would start in the Daily's 6 days before the fixture and they would stoke the flames well in advance, they would have everyone on tenterhooks, they would be causing and stirring trouble and then when a few nutters get out of hand they would sweep down with condemnation and cast a blistering attack on all the supporters.  I have been to many a derby match involving clubs in England and I have been to others in Spain, Italy and Germany and the hatred between fans in those places is far greater.  But it lasts for the  game, sometimes a few hours before and after but it clears up and the media don't go into overdrive with it and it's back to normality. 

We have recently seen coverage go cover to cover of Jim Murphy MP being hit by a couple of eggs, if you have a look on facebook/twitter the culprit has been identified as a member of Jim's enteurage, no main stream media outlet has picked up on this because it doesn't play up to their interests, today some scumbag from the Britannica Party kicked a pregnant woman in the stomach and then climbed back to his mic to say she was some sort of junkie or alcoholic and he had to defend himself.  Again no coverage in the media.  In the early hours of the night a stop with a number of yes stickers and posters up was set onfire.  No media coverage, all because it doesn't play to the narative. 

I bet you guys who have brought up the hate issue probably know a far few Scots some who are absolute arses and some who are stand up guys, but I also bet you probably know a large number of people from varying backgrounds who you could put into both those categories. 

All I have wanted from the outset of this campaign was a good hard fought debate with respect on both sides and impartial media scrutiny.

I was going to make another post about the video below but it kind of fits into the overall point I am making here. This video was uneartherd by some "cybernats" but the BBC done this interview in 2012.  When they recently interviewd Sir Ian there was no questions raised over this footage or indeed his own previous report commissioned by the UK government.  I  mean who the heck has lost 10.5 billion barrells of oil in 2 year, because they aren't doing a very good job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIIW6hg--AA

[Woodsey]

It's not unfair it's absolutely true and you know it is, many Scots don't like the English and vice versa, same with some of he other rivalries you mention.

I don't subscribe to the peace and love all lefty bollocks whatever the country/religion/etc may be, it's a utopia that will never happen, just pointing out facts mate. Let's just be honest rather pretending everything is perfect.  

Like I say I don't really care anyway, but don't try to pretend otherwise.

[Kmac84]

It's not unfair it's absolutely true and you know it is, many Scots don't like the English and vice versa, same with some of he other rivalries you mention.

I don't subscribe to the peace and love all lefty bollocks whatever the country/religion/etc may be, it's a utopia that will never happen, just pointing out facts mate. Let's just be honest rather pretending everything is perfect.  

Like I say I don't really care anyway, but don't try to pretend otherwise.

Clearly you care otherwise your just trolling.  I will leave that for others to decide.

[Woodsey]

It's not unfair it's absolutely true and you know it is, many Scots don't like the English and vice versa, same with some of he other rivalries you mention.

I don't subscribe to the peace and love all lefty bollocks whatever the country/religion/etc may be, it's a utopia that will never happen, just pointing out facts mate. Let's just be honest rather pretending everything is perfect.  

Like I say I don't really care anyway, but don't try to pretend otherwise.

Clearly you care otherwise your just trolling.  I will leave that for others to decide.

No I'm just pointing out facts, whether I care is irrelevant really.

[celtic]

I won't be registering to vote, for various reasons. My view in it so far tho, as an undecided. The yes campaigners are far more vocal than the no campaigners, almost to the point, where as an undecided, I'd spite vote no.

Can't wait for it all to be over.

[Ironside]

Woodsey your just trolling, I hate the English football team but I like a lot of English players and like to see them succeed , I hate my local council but I like some of the people  in the council and that work for the council.

I hate rangers and Celtic with a passion but about 70% of my friends in the area will support one or the other and I don't hate them, won't stop me rubbing the face in it when things go wrong for the teams

[Ironside]

I won't be registering to vote, for various reasons. My view in it so far tho, as an undecided. The yes campaigners are far more vocal than the no campaigners, almost to the point, where as an undecided, I'd spite vote no.

Can't wait for it all to be over.

yeah that's one thing leaning me to the no is the cocky ness of the yes campaign that don't realise they are still along way behind