Issues Arising from Staking

[GreekStein]

it tilts me badly seeing half-arsed proposals

lol

[bobby1]

@Bobby

When you parade around telling everyone how terrible the value is on these staking threads you have to accept that you put yourself in the firing line. You seem intent on forcing this down peoples throats so a negative reaction is hardly surprising.

Protecting buyers from stakes that could go sour is an important topic and I agree that some sort of feedback system would be a great idea, but trying to preach to people about what is good value and what isn't in your opinion (however informed or otherwise that might be) and presenting them as facts is just out of order imo. Let adults make their own decisions on what is value and what isn't.

lol, thanks for pointing those things out Dan. I am aware that 'parading' my opinion is going to create discussion, that's good isn't it?

So talking about protecting people from stakes that could go wrong is good but talking about protecting people from buying bad value stakes is bad? It is the same ball park.

sorry mate, it doesn't work like that

By parading my opinion we have discussed the introduction of a feedback system which you say would be a great idea, so posting my thoughts on this subject is both relevant and positive, hardly out of order. Personally I think a group of regular stake sellers that just keep defending each other and telling others to let people make their own decisions is out of order, esp when those sellers know they are over selling.

Why don't we just let those adults discuss staking requests  getting out of order without anyone getting defensive or annoyed, after all that's what people have started doing in other staking threads.

[bobby1]

Hi Neil,

The post was put up without knowing there was a 20% deduction from the prize money. When it was pointed out the auction rules didn't change. It was just added to the front page of the request.

If it is bad value before the 20% is taken out and you then leave it when you realise the 20% will go then that is in bad taste imo. It just makes a mockery of the request and is clearly badly thought out if the biggest deal breaker isn't included initially.

It is also an auction with a fixed reserve that isn't divulged, the board is being used by people to get thu what they can, not offer genuine value staking opportunities.

If you were offered a stake and took it and then found out there would be 20% less prize money and then told the price was the same would you think that was fair?

Wow really? I think the only thing I've done wrong like Neil said is not research the tax issue beforehand and I haven't found anyone but you to disagree. I wouldn't have entered the satellite had I known about the tax issue, it wasn't exactly in large red letters on the pokerstars lobby, I just flicked it in, won a package and sold some action. Pretty easy and forgivable oversight surely?

And the way I reacted I think was fine - I consulted others about what was fair/best as I wanted to get it right and be fair to those who had already bid - it was obvious that cancelling and starting a new thread making sure everyone knew about the tax was the right thing to do. I did that and restarted the whole process.

The reserve price was settled with tight end beforehand and very clear in the op. As to whether reserve prices should be in auctions - that's a different issue, but I think you and Rupert have a point and are probably right.

As for whether its good value, blaming me for that is frankly laughable since it's an auction, I start the price at 1.0 and people bid for what they want. Just because 20% has sold at 1.55 isn't my fault, and like Neil said is a reflection on the honest and clear op, and dare I say it, my ability and results.

You surely don't need me to point out how an auction with a hidden reserve price is exploitable. You seem to have decided to take that course after selling your WSOP package for 1.3 ish in an open auction. Lets say your reserve price is 1.40, and the bids go up in bits to the 1.55/1.6 level they are at now then you have sold at many spots above the level you think it is worth. If you put it in a 1.65 and all the bids fall below that at between 1.55 and 1.6 you can just announce that the reserve wasn't met but you will sigh sell it at those highest rates bid if the guys still want to buy.  Either way you are over selling.

There is no down side to you in that example because you could simply have just put the stake up at 1.4 and given people the chance to buy it at the level you think it is worth.


It is also very simple to get bids from friends to drive the price up.

You haven't set the price at 1.0 tho have you, there is a set price but you haven't told anyone what it is. You are gambling it goes above the figure so you can over sell, you can fall back to cancelling it if it doesn't coz the reserve isn't met and are free to sell it as a normal package at the lower price which would have been the abs minimum you would have taken thru the auction.

Again no downside to you.

In general tho you don't come across as someone that is selling to give guys a chance to make a few quid backing you. You have posted on other threads that sell out the traditional way  with 'sold out quickly, should have done an auction'. You see the difference in mentality between them putting up something that sells out because it is pitched correctly and you thinking they haven't got the abs most out of it?

[cambridgealex]

What about any of my other points?

[The Camel]

Hi Neil,

The post was put up without knowing there was a 20% deduction from the prize money. When it was pointed out the auction rules didn't change. It was just added to the front page of the request.

If it is bad value before the 20% is taken out and you then leave it when you realise the 20% will go then that is in bad taste imo. It just makes a mockery of the request and is clearly badly thought out if the biggest deal breaker isn't included initially.

It is also an auction with a fixed reserve that isn't divulged, the board is being used by people to get thu what they can, not offer genuine value staking opportunities.

If you were offered a stake and took it and then found out there would be 20% less prize money and then told the price was the same would you think that was fair?

Wow really? I think the only thing I've done wrong like Neil said is not research the tax issue beforehand and I haven't found anyone but you to disagree. I wouldn't have entered the satellite had I known about the tax issue, it wasn't exactly in large red letters on the pokerstars lobby, I just flicked it in, won a package and sold some action. Pretty easy and forgivable oversight surely?

And the way I reacted I think was fine - I consulted others about what was fair/best as I wanted to get it right and be fair to those who had already bid - it was obvious that cancelling and starting a new thread making sure everyone knew about the tax was the right thing to do. I did that and restarted the whole process.

The reserve price was settled with tight end beforehand and very clear in the op. As to whether reserve prices should be in auctions - that's a different issue, but I think you and Rupert have a point and are probably right.

As for whether its good value, blaming me for that is frankly laughable since it's an auction, I start the price at 1.0 and people bid for what they want. Just because 20% has sold at 1.55 isn't my fault, and like Neil said is a reflection on the honest and clear op, and dare I say it, my ability and results.

You surely don't need me to point out how an auction with a hidden reserve price is exploitable. You seem to have decided to take that course after selling your WSOP package for 1.3 ish in an open auction. Lets say your reserve price is 1.40, and the bids go up in bits to the 1.55/1.6 level they are at now then you have sold at many spots above the level you think it is worth. If you put it in a 1.65 and all the bids fall below that at between 1.55 and 1.6 you can just announce that the reserve wasn't met but you will sigh sell it at those highest rates bid if the guys still want to buy.  Either way you are over selling.

There is no down side to you in that example because you could simply have just put the stake up at 1.4 and given people the chance to buy it at the level you think it is worth.


It is also very simple to get bids from friends to drive the price up.

You haven't set the price at 1.0 tho have you, there is a set price but you haven't told anyone what it is. You are gambling it goes above the figure so you can over sell, you can fall back to cancelling it if it doesn't coz the reserve isn't met and are free to sell it as a normal package at the lower price which would have been the abs minimum you would have taken thru the auction.

Again no downside to you.

In general tho you don't come across as someone that is selling to give guys a chance to make a few quid backing you. You have posted on other threads that sell out the traditional way  with 'sold out quickly, should have done an auction'. You see the difference in mentality between them putting up something that sells out because it is pitched correctly and you thinking they haven't got the abs most out of it?

The only thing I would disagree with is if someone sells out in 5 minutes it clearly isn't priced correctly.

I think someone who sells out straight away is completely justified in adding a small amount to his markup in his next sale (in a similar event).

I think if you have an open auction, you should accept the result whatever it is. You might make more than you think you're worth or you might make less. Having a reserve is trying to get the best of both worlds.

[bobby1]

ok, I used the 5 mins as a throw away number. Stu sold his out quickly and Alex posted a similar comment to the one I have listed above.

[cambridgealex]

Argh read the thread! Read my posts! You're so wrong.

[bobby1]

What about any of my other points?

You have entered a sat for a comp you didn't fully understand, ok that's an easy mistake to make. How much did you take off your first reserve price when you re did the thread to account for the 20% tax?


Nobody can possibly know other than Tighty ( unless you tip people off to get the ball rolling at a figure above your reserve, which is again easily done) so once again it gives you carte blanche to over sell at a figure that cannot be lower than the price you would sell it at in the normal way.

It doesn't matter how well laid out the OP is, and it is well laid out, if all the info isn't there, you made a mistake in missing out the 20% tax, if someone else had done that then you or the sheriff would have been all over them.

[cambridgealex]

I only wanted to sell 10percent. That much was up for grabs, no reserve, que sera sera. I decided that if there was loads of demand I'd sell another 10percent and set a reserve price for that extra 10. I PMed Tight End this price. He confirmed that he received it, and will confirm that when the price reached the reserve, I clearly said so.

I literally couldn't have been more fair / open / honest with this auction and the flaming you are giving me is totally unjustified. I know no-one else agrees with you so I shouldn't get too wound up over it, but its still pretty tilting.

[bobby1]

Argh read the thread! Read my posts! You're so wrong.

This was your post on Stu's thread

''Congrats on selling out so quickly Stu.

As Keith said, this is probably the best value package I've ever seen on here.

Perhaps you should auction your action off next year!''

[cambridgealex]

The reserve was 1.75 for the first auction, then when I realised about the tax, was 1.5

[bobby1]

I only wanted to sell 10percent. That much was up for grabs, no reserve, que sera sera. I decided that if there was loads of demand I'd sell another 10percent and set a reserve price for that extra 10. I PMed Tight End this price. He confirmed that he received it, and will confirm that when the price reached the reserve, I clearly said so.

I literally couldn't have been more fair / open / honest with this auction and the flaming you are giving me is totally unjustified. I know no-one else agrees with you so I shouldn't get too wound up over it, but its still pretty tilting.

lol, seriously mate you are ool there.I have half a dozen pm's from today agreeing with me.

How can you possibly know nobody agrees with me, its a ridic thing to say.

[bobby1]

The reserve was 1.75 for the first auction, then when I realised about the tax, was 1.5

That was good, but you surely see how that could have  been exploited?

[cambridgealex]

Yes, I can see how the whole auction process is possible to rig. Do you think I would cheat people that way?

[bobby1]

Yes, I can see how the whole auction process is possible to rig. Do you think I would cheat people that way?

I have no idea.

You say your second reserve price is  1.5 then, your bids have gone as high as 1.6, so you have over sold the package when there was no way you could under sell it.( if indeed 1.5 was the correct price anyway)

What are you arguing about when it is clear as day what this auction has achieved?

and what it has achieved is the exact reason why you didn't do a str8 staking thread at 1.5 because you are working more obscure ways into your auctions. imo they should be banned for this reason,let alone the fact you agree they are very easy to rig.

Exactly where in that is the value to the staking board or the buyers that were good enough to purchase but have now found out they paid ten spots more than you thought it was worth even allowing for the poster generally over egging their worth?