Issues Arising from Staking

[GreekStein]

I only wanted to sell 10percent. That much was up for grabs, no reserve, que sera sera. I decided that if there was loads of demand I'd sell another 10percent and set a reserve price for that extra 10. I PMed Tight End this price. He confirmed that he received it, and will confirm that when the price reached the reserve, I clearly said so.

I literally couldn't have been more fair / open / honest with this auction and the flaming you are giving me is totally unjustified. I know no-one else agrees with you so I shouldn't get too wound up over it, but its still pretty tilting.

lol, seriously mate you are ool there.I have half a dozen pm's from today agreeing with me.

How can you possible know nobody agrees with me, its a ridic thing to say.

those half dozen should grow a pair and post.

[bobby1]

I only wanted to sell 10percent. That much was up for grabs, no reserve, que sera sera. I decided that if there was loads of demand I'd sell another 10percent and set a reserve price for that extra 10. I PMed Tight End this price. He confirmed that he received it, and will confirm that when the price reached the reserve, I clearly said so.

I literally couldn't have been more fair / open / honest with this auction and the flaming you are giving me is totally unjustified. I know no-one else agrees with you so I shouldn't get too wound up over it, but its still pretty tilting.

lol, seriously mate you are ool there.I have half a dozen pm's from today agreeing with me.

How can you possible know nobody agrees with me, its a ridic thing to say.

those half dozen should grow a pair and post.

I agree mate 100% but it shows how badly the siege mentality has affected the board.

Two very experienced people have already posted on here that they thought the same but didn't want to rock the boat,imagine you are inexperienced and fancied buying a share in someone.

[cambridgealex]

Two very experienced people have already posted on here that they thought the same but didn't want to rock the boat,imagine you are inexperienced and fancied buying a share in someone.

The Camel and who else? You two are the only ones on here that have thought the same. I made my comment about thinking that no-one agreed with you based on the comments itt and the people irl i'd spoken to.

Auctions are stupid IMO. If I were to sell for a tournament at 1.3 I could just set the reserve at 1.3 and freeroll at getting higher (assuming I'd have no trouble hitting 1.3). They suck all the value out of the marketplace for the buyer and rely on punters coming in looking for a sweat.

exactly this. The current one is in bad taste, badly thought out and terrible value. It is simply a new way of grinding out a small set of stakers to pay way over the odds.

I've reread Alex's staking post just to check, and I still can't fathom how it can be described as 'in bad taste' or 'badly thought out'.

When he realised there was a 20% deduction for tax he started a new thread that mentioned it.  I am not sure what else you wanted him to do on that score.  

Hi Neil,

The post was put up without knowing there was a 20% deduction from the prize money. When it was pointed out the auction rules didn't change. It was just added to the front page of the request.

If it is bad value before the 20% is taken out and you then leave it when you realise the 20% will go then that is in bad taste imo. It just makes a mockery of the request and is clearly badly thought out if the biggest deal breaker isn't included initially.

It is also an auction with a fixed reserve that isn't divulged, the board is being used by people to get thu what they can, not offer genuine value staking opportunities.

If you were offered a stake and took it and then found out there would be 20% less prize money and then told the price was the same would you think that was fair?

I understand the points you are making, but :

- Alex closed the initial auction once he realised the tax situation, and started a new thread, therefore resetting the price (therefore I think your comment 'and then told the price was the same' isn't an accurate reflection)
- The reserve not being divulged is fine (imo), as long as it is independently moderated, which, in this instance, it is.
- The 'bad taste' comment doesn't reflect anything that Alex has done. He has put up a second thread, which is open and honest. If people still want to buy, they are doing so of their own volition, in full possession of the facts. If they buy at bad value, (although who can judge this accurately, god only knows), then that is their issue.

I think the only criticism that can be levelled at Alex is the fact he didn't research the tax situation before selling. Wouldn't judge him too harshly on that though.

It's not even close to being that bad.

the actual OP is good, and the prices being high aren't Alex's fault and are probably a testement to the good op.

It's just the auction that creates falses prices etc.

But who is who to say what is inflated, Alex even states 2.0 with the 20% tax would be good value still

Not quite sure what Bobbys getting at, just dont like Goulder?

As for his conduct with the tax etc. I don't see anything else that he could have done. I think you're kinda clutching at straws with that. He cancelled the original auction, the price was reset and everyone now knows about taxes in South America and will do more research in the future. Cut people some slack, we're all still learning on the job when it comes to staking for tournaments in far flung places. There are going to be teething problems but that isn't a reason to stop the whole process.

The op is Probably in top 10 ops of 2012 imo

[cambridgealex]

Dan makes one of the best points actually

. Cut people some slack, we're all still learning on the job when it comes to staking for tournaments in far flung places. There are going to be teething problems but that isn't a reason to stop the whole process.

I'm treading new waters here, and of course there's going to be things that we as a group learn are bad for the staker/stakee. Instead of going on a personal attack accusing me of intentionally giving my backers bad value, accusing me of rigging the reserve price, it'd be more constructive not to mention less offensive to approach it like Tight End did.

"This might be a problem Alex because of XYZ, in future I think this shouldn't be banned".

Just because I set a reserve price for the additional 10% doesn't mean I did it with bad intentions, and I'm completely open to discussions with regards to the issue, and have conceded more than once that on reflection, yes they could be bad news and perhaps should be banned.

[skolsuper]

Alex, Bobby1 has a chip on his shoulder about me and has gone off half-cocked again. Bobby, there is nothing deceitful or underhanded about Alex's (2nd) OP, nothing wrong with it at all in fact, hence I had nothing to pick holes in it about. You're lambasting him for no reason except that he ran an auction which you wrongly see as him ripping people off, probably just because they were my idea and you don't like me. Simple question, who sets the price in an auction?

A. The buyers
B. The sellers

Clue: It's A. If you want to flame anybody for the price Alex is selling at for colombia, flame the buyers, as I am tempted to do once it finishes.

If anything, if you want to 'protect' witless buyers on blonde auctions could be good, people have to make a concious effort to choose a price for themselves, and if there aren't enough witless buyers to pay the full amount, they will all pay the shrewd punters price anyway. Generally though I'd say where people are willing to elbow others out of their way to buy something, leave them to it.

Re: your point about reserves being manifestly evil, if I want to sell at 1.4 or above, and so do an auction with a reserve at 1.4, if that isn't met then there isn't demand for that action at that price, I can't then just do a normal thread and ship it at 1.4, and it wouldn't have sold if I had done that in the first place. Yes it's a freeroll, but no nobody is being forced to pay higher prices than they want to.

Finally, @pleno, rupert and others who say there will be no bargains from auctions, but still mainly at bobby who thinks I invented them as a surefire way to take money from the blonde community for myself, my WSOP main event action went for 1.56, an order of magnitude below what I would genuinely estimate my ROI to be in that particular tournament. That price brought tears to my eyes, I would never have sold 20% had I known it in advance. It deeply saddens me that apparently people can't tell the difference between me in the WSOP Main Event and Alex in a tournament less than 1/10th the size with over 30% rake*. Bobby, if you don't believe me I will put my money where my mouth is and buy myself at 1.56 in ANY regular speed live tournament I choose to play in, let alone the WSOP Main Event.

* Before anybody gets bunched up about it, this line is tongue-in-cheek. I am aware that the main reason is that I was selling $2000 worth of action vs Alex's ~$300, and the laws of supply and demand mean Alex's very limited supply of action will fetch a much higher price.

edit: TL;DR: Yes the price Alex has sold for in Colombia is scandalous, but no it's not his fault

[Magic817]

I haven't staked on blonde due to not having enough posts but have staked/swaped action elsewhere. So I guess in I should fall into the category of one of the "inexperienced people who don't want to rock the boat."

In the long run the market will correct itself and part of me agrees with the Red dog argument of "I still can't get past the "If you don't like it, don't buy it" argument." No one has to buy and if you do then you need to do your own research and make sure you are paying an appropriate price (taking into account the mark up/ability of player/risk associated with player/other non financial items - eg is a nice guy and I want to stake him even though it is -ev)

I do however feel healthy debate is good and anything that can be done to improve the staking threads is of benefit... I do however feel some posts are just personal attacks and therefore are of no benefit, apart from giving excitement to people who need to get out more! Mature discussions of why someones mark up is too high/discussion on auctions or how an op can be better etc will improve the staking forum and are of benefit to all (both buyers and sellers) and should be done in a mature adult manner (mature does include amusing comments from Smashedagain etc!!!) as we can then all benefit. I feel strongly that we need to all be adult enough to do this on the forum rather than pm which I find a bit sad if we have a site where people cannot say what they think for the sake of upsetting a reg. I do find it confusing (and would actually find it insulting if I was the op) the suggestion that a stakee may artificially inflate prices by getting friends to put in fake bids. If I cant trust someone, I wont stake someone....simples really! Also, if the price ends up too high...I don't invest....again simples!

I completely agree with Jakally and the half arsed posts comment, I haven't asked for staking on the site yet but potentially will and if I do I know I am trying to get people to invest in me and therefore I need to convince them. The better I make the argument, the better mark up I can get so people should be spending time to make sure they make a decent op.

[cambridgealex]

Good post. I have found Bobby's approach and comments very offensive and the only people who don't think the same are these mysterious private pmers and the Camel. Accusing me of artificially inflating prices, getting friends to put in fake bids, rigging the reserve price - it's all based on nothing and like you say, if you feel that way, don't bid!

And before Bobby retorts by saying I'm should be open to being in the firing line just the same as everyone - I am, and like I've already said, I'll listen to and work with anyone who approaches things in the right way, like Tight End does.

[DMorgan]

So talking about protecting people from stakes that could go wrong is good but talking about protecting people from buying bad value stakes is bad? It is the same ball park.

Then I'm afraid that we have reached an impasse because I don't agree that they are in the same ball park.

You keep saying how packages are bad value and yet people still keep buying them. These threads are getting plenty of exposure and people are still buying. I think that you could make your point much more effectively by showing people why these threads are bad value rather than just telling them. From the number of participants in Alex's auction and the number of people that bought WSOP pieces it seems like at the moment either nobody is getting the message or nobody agrees with you. I don't mind telling you that it is getting tiresome seeing the same few people go on about how bad the value is for investors for numerous staking requests.

There isn't anything to stop you putting up a big post about the direction that you feel that the staking board is going in, why that is bad for Blonde and its community and what you think should be done going forward. It would get a ton of exposure and would really give your argument some weight beyond what at the moment is you just telling people that these propositions are bad value.

Don't get me wrong, there are things that we agree on and I do think that there are some constructive changes that can be made but flaming peoples staking threads (either on that thread or in other threads) is the wrong way to go about it imo.

If you want big change then you need to present a big argument and others that feel the same way need to speak up. Any fear of repercussions, exclusion or a clique backlash really are an illusion. I hope that the individuals that PMd you come forward and join the debate.

[redarmi]

Good post. I have found Bobby's approach and comments very offensive and the only people who don't think the same are these mysterious private pmers and the Camel. Accusing me of artificially inflating prices, getting friends to put in fake bids, rigging the reserve price - it's all based on nothing and like you say, if you feel that way, don't bid!

If you really think Bobby has accused you of artificially inflating prices, getting friends to put in fake bids or rigging the reserve price then you haven't read any of his posts.

[Cf]

Good post. I have found Bobby's approach and comments very offensive and the only people who don't think the same are these mysterious private pmers and the Camel. Accusing me of artificially inflating prices, getting friends to put in fake bids, rigging the reserve price - it's all based on nothing and like you say, if you feel that way, don't bid!

If you really think Bobby has accused you of artificially inflating prices, getting friends to put in fake bids or rigging the reserve price then you haven't read any of his posts.

This. Alex's thread is being used as an example as it highlights a lot of potential issues.

The thing that I did find odd though was:

"I think this'll be a really fun sweat and it'd be good to get lots of blondes on board having a little slice."

I can't help but think that if that's the objective then an auction is the complete wrong way to go about it. What's to stop someone going "20% at 2.0". That kills the objective.

I don't think auctions are an inherently bad thing but my personal views of them is they will only drive up prices (esp if reserves are being used) and for a community based forum like this I don't think that is a good thing.

I wouldn't however support banning them as I also subscribe to the theory of it's up to people to make their own choices of what they want to buy, and at what price.

[Bertpup]

For someone who rarely posts but is a keen reader just like to post my observations.

The problem with unannounced reserves (prices and percentages) is that a seller could potentially be using it as a tool to manipulate the market.

Example

Player A wants to play X tournament. Player A can only afford 20% of the buyin. He starts an auction stating that he wants to sell 20% of his action with a caveat that he has a reserve and potentially will open more.

Player A is likeable and has an ok HM and OPR. People decided to bid on the 20%. The 20% goes quite comfortably then all of a sudden a bidding war kicks in for people trying to get a %. If the bidding halts before he is able to manipulate a price and percentage so he gets the 80% to make his buyin. He closes the auction says thanks alot guys look forward to winning the world blah blah blah. Day of the tournament and he falls asleep at his computer or there was a juicy cash game going on so he swerved the tourney. No one is the wiser.

Or when he reaches the point where he can afford to buying he's able to say reserve kicked in decided to open some more up, you all believed in me so much blah blah blah.         

 

[MANTIS01]

I don't think bobby's approach or posts have been offensive.

[The Camel]

The problem with criticising a staking thread / idea is that it is almost inevitable the OP takes it personally.

[nirvana]

The process is fine. The end prices are wonky - but this is due to the greed of the buyers not the greed of the sellers.

I pronounce the sellers innocent and the buyers doofuses.

[cambridgealex]

The problem with criticising a staking thread / idea is that it is almost inevitable the OP takes it personally.

I'm don't take it personally when people critique the system used, and constructively suggest ways it could be done fairer in the future and at least show some sort of acceptance that if there is something wry, it's not malicious and merely a function of inexperience / treading new waters, rather than suggesting (if not accusing) that the underlying motive of things like the reserve price or the tax clause is me trying to con or dupe buyers.

Bobby has done both those things, plus suggesting I might get friends to make bids to bump the price up. I'll find the quotes itt if you want.

Can't you see there's a massive difference in Tight End's approach to the issues than Bobby's?

I welcome Tight End's and don't take it personally, I appreciate what he's saying is fair and with the best interest of the forum at heart. I do take offense to Bobby's approach, maybe that's me being sensetive but the things he's accused me of are extremely serious, why shouldn't I be offended, particularly when I feel I have done nothing intentionally wrong?