Issues Arising from Staking

[The Camel]

The problem with criticising a staking thread / idea is that it is almost inevitable the OP takes it personally.

I'm don't take it personally when people critique the system used, and constructively suggest ways it could be done fairer in the future and at least show some sort of acceptance that if there is something wry, it's not malicious and merely a function of inexperience / treading new waters, rather than suggesting (if not accusing) that the underlying motive of things like the reserve price or the tax clause is me trying to con or dupe buyers.

Bobby has done both those things, plus suggesting I might get friends to make bids to bump the price up. I'll find the quotes itt if you want.

Can't you see there's a massive difference in Tight End's approach to the issues than Bobby's?

I welcome Tight End's and don't take it personally, I appreciate what he's saying is fair and with the best interest of the forum at heart. I do take offense to Bobby's approach, maybe that's me being sensetive but the things he's accused me of are extremely serious, why shouldn't I be offended, particularly when I feel I have done nothing intentionally wrong?

The way I've read Phil's posts he has claimed it is easy for sellers to manipulate the market, not that YOU would.

[skolsuper]

The process is fine. The end prices are wonky - but this is due to the greed of the buyers not the greed of the sellers.

I pronounce the sellers innocent and the buyers doofuses.

Nirvana just gets it 100%, and puts it so concisely too. I'm just gonna quote his posts from now on.

[George2Loose]

The problem with criticising a staking thread / idea is that it is almost inevitable the OP takes it personally.

I'm don't take it personally when people critique the system used, and constructively suggest ways it could be done fairer in the future and at least show some sort of acceptance that if there is something wry, it's not malicious and merely a function of inexperience / treading new waters, rather than suggesting (if not accusing) that the underlying motive of things like the reserve price or the tax clause is me trying to con or dupe buyers.

Bobby has done both those things, plus suggesting I might get friends to make bids to bump the price up. I'll find the quotes itt if you want.

Can't you see there's a massive difference in Tight End's approach to the issues than Bobby's?

I welcome Tight End's and don't take it personally, I appreciate what he's saying is fair and with the best interest of the forum at heart. I do take offense to Bobby's approach, maybe that's me being sensetive but the things he's accused me of are extremely serious, why shouldn't I be offended, particularly when I feel I have done nothing intentionally wrong?

The way I've read Phil's posts he has claimed it is easy for sellers to manipulate the market, not that YOU would.

CBA to quote them, but there's posts here where bobby is clearly implying Alex's intention is to rip off blonde.

Alex has contributed and donated his time (helping live updates for free) and money (big donater to blonde updates before they were sponsored) plus his diary gets a lot of publicity. I also know Alex would never intentionally grim or con anyone.

Contrast that with bobby who decides he's on a one man crusade to criticise anyone who's trying to sell some action/get some staking when he hardly buys a jot.

Dunno if he is but he comes across as very bitter and twisted.

[Magic817]

The way I read it was that the suggestion was Alex could/would manipulate the price, so I am not surprised Alex has taken offence. It might just be us two that read it that way but I doubt it.  

"It is also very simple to get bids from friends to drive the price up."

Maybe Alex/myself have interpreted this wrong, debate over things like this are good however personally with the post made I think it is best to caveat by saying "I am not saying you would, merely you could." Otherwise the post is potentially going to question his integrity which is pretty serious imo.

I have to agree with Nirvana regarding the prices.

The process is fine. The end prices are wonky - but this is due to the greed of the buyers not the greed of the sellers.

I pronounce the sellers innocent and the buyers doofuses.

[cambridgealex]

The problem with criticising a staking thread / idea is that it is almost inevitable the OP takes it personally.

I'm don't take it personally when people critique the system used, and constructively suggest ways it could be done fairer in the future and at least show some sort of acceptance that if there is something wry, it's not malicious and merely a function of inexperience / treading new waters, rather than suggesting (if not accusing) that the underlying motive of things like the reserve price or the tax clause is me trying to con or dupe buyers.

Bobby has done both those things, plus suggesting I might get friends to make bids to bump the price up. I'll find the quotes itt if you want.

Can't you see there's a massive difference in Tight End's approach to the issues than Bobby's?

I welcome Tight End's and don't take it personally, I appreciate what he's saying is fair and with the best interest of the forum at heart. I do take offense to Bobby's approach, maybe that's me being sensetive but the things he's accused me of are extremely serious, why shouldn't I be offended, particularly when I feel I have done nothing intentionally wrong?

The way I've read Phil's posts he has claimed it is easy for sellers to manipulate the market, not that YOU would.

Did you miss him saying this?

and what it has achieved is the exact reason why you didn't do a str8 staking thread at 1.5 because you are working more obscure ways into your auctions.

Working more obscure ways into my auctions? This is pretty accusatory imo.

[bobby1]

Dan makes one of the best points actually

. Cut people some slack, we're all still learning on the job when it comes to staking for tournaments in far flung places. There are going to be teething problems but that isn't a reason to stop the whole process.

I'm treading new waters here, and of course there's going to be things that we as a group learn are bad for the staker/stakee. Instead of going on a personal attack accusing me of intentionally giving my backers bad value, accusing me of rigging the reserve price, it'd be more constructive not to mention less offensive to approach it like Tight End did.

"This might be a problem Alex because of XYZ, in future I think this shouldn't be banned".

Just because I set a reserve price for the additional 10% doesn't mean I did it with bad intentions, and I'm completely open to discussions with regards to the issue, and have conceded more than once that on reflection, yes they could be bad news and perhaps should be banned.

This is now just an adult child conversation if that's the level you are going to go to.

I have not accused you of rigging the price, only a fool wouldn't see this is the easiest form of selling to influence. I gave it as an example. As for your subsequent claims that I have said this and that well its just a little pathetic really. Enough people have posted that it isn't the case but you seemed to prefer compiling a montage of your friends quotes instead. You asked for other people to post but have just ignored when they did.



As for treading new waters and having to learn what is good/bad for stakers, well this is the bit you don't get. I am far more experienced than you are in staking people in poker events and other gambling areas, should I just apologise for that or along with other more experienced people attempt to make sure the board runs fairly and not as a cartel. Myself Keith and Bob will have been staking people when you were still at Uni Alex, maybe we have seen more examples than you, maybe it would benefit you to realise this.



 

[bobby1]

There were a few replies to points made so I should reply.

Hi Magic, post more mate.

Alex, I think you should probably remove that post under Magic's as it totally untrue but just seems to be the usual phase two of these discussions when diverting by getting all fake indignant seems to be the stock line. It's actually interesting to note the way these develop, they always seem to go the same way. Lots of bluster and round the edges when the basic facts are put up and then 20 or so pages later the posters tend to  end up agreeing with the main points of the posts anyway.

@Dan, we do seem to have reached an impasse, that's just how it goes. As for tiresome well it is getting tiresome seeing more staking threads appear that are driving the market thru the roof, it used to be said that selling in bulk was better because you didn't have to deal with too many people. Now the idea is put it up as high as I can and then sell it in bits to people who don't realise how high the mark up is over roi.


I agree with you Redarmi. I think Alex must have a pint or two last night as none of those posts are  really replies at all.

I'm glad you posted CF as you will recall it was you who introduced Alex's thread to this discussion. You abs hit the nail on the head as to how these bad value stakes are offered..... field is soft as shit etc, lets go have some fun bashing the oiks when in truth just about everyone that offers staking on that board is bad value at 1.5 some are bad value at less than that but some, like yourself simply say' i want to play this event, i cannot afford the full buy in myself so will sell half of it at spot'

That is what Alex and others are trying to portray in the' lets all have some fun angle'. Your approach provides this and you understand the value of getting say half the entry from people willing to give you a spin.

Pleno mentioned somewhere that people on 2+2 were not selling out shares in events at 1.1, we have to ask ourselves this. If people on a poker site that carries a generally higher more professional clientele than Blonde are not buying stakes in players at 1.1 how can 1.3, 1.4 and above be sold as value on here. The real sadness in my eyes is that even the people that take the time to back up their friends know full well the prices on here are badly wrong. Some have decided to stop doing so, maybe they realised how it looks.

@ bert, bert gives a different example during the discussion similar to the one I did but doesn't get all the histrionics.

Alex, Again, you have simply just matter of fact told everyone I have done things that I haven't done, I suggest you remove the post under Nirvana as it is just pretty pathetic. The  nut funniest bit is the highlighting of certain lines, maybe we could include that in the staking thread overhaul to be used when someone uses a particularly ridiculous point to try to sell.   Maybe ( I've played online with loads of South Americans so KNOW how bad they are) could be the first one.

@ George, I really think its honourable that you always arrive on these threads and just make a post backing up your friends. It's good to have mates that will do that but it is just starting to look like an obligatory post because you feel you have to. This one is simply breathtakingly ridic.

Alex has donated his time and money, his diary gets a lot of publicity( er, what)

and the coup de grace that I am one man crusade that never buys any of the actions, sorry mate, it just negates all your efforts to actually post that.

If you had bothered to look instead of dusting of your template reply you would see I bought around $2.5k/$3k worth of stakes in the last month or so on threads on this board. I also bought about 600/700 more off thread to a few mates/people that were playing events in Vegas too.

It is just embarrassing you even took the time to write what you did without even looking first, I could have taken more if I had wanted but as I play with my own money and have good bankroll management I just stuck with what I had.

Maybe you can point me to the threads that you buy on and we can see who is posting under the guise of never buys much of it and who isn't.

Just to get back on track after the usual fade.

The auction was put up badly with the most important bit missing, having thought about it and read Alex's reply I guess that was easy to do, tho it would still have got a negative response from Alex and others is someone else had posted it. As Mantis said, you are either a sheriff or you aren't, funnily the ones that point the finger at me for wanting to tidy up this board are happy to let Skol do the same thing when it suits them.

The crux of this new auction with reserve is simply to guarantee you cannot possibly under sell the shares but can vastly over sell instead. Imo it is in bad taste when instead of just putting the thread out there and asking people to bid on it you have devised a way of letting that happen without having to sell at 1.26-1.3 ish that you did for the WSOP stakes. So I am not accusatory, I have simply laid out an explanation of why this type of stake is bad tho I don't really see how you can question the line about working more obscure ways into your auctions, I mean which part of that is untrue?

Last but not least Skol, fella you appear quite delusional, how did you turn this discussion into me trying to get at you, I read the first 2 lines of your post then stopped. It has been proven beyond any doubt that you view subjects one way when it suits you and your friends/people you like and another way to regular posters.

It just makes you unreliable as a poster on these subjects.

thanks

[George2Loose]

Right if your a buyer then fair enough. I've obviously missed all this action you've bought, I just thought u were trolling for the sake of it.

I guess I'd better write a new template because it seems like you're onto me. Grats on playing on your own money. Don't know if that's another barb youre throwing out there or me being paranoid but I seem to be getting a distInct impression of what your like. I could be wrong but doubt it.

Gl in your future staking and gambling exploits on your own well bankrolled managed money.

[TightEnd]

There's a lot of misconception here, guys

As I know all the people involved, some clarity hopefully


Phil/bobby1 is not trolling. His concerns are about the staking board, and the process/risk of auctions.

Alex also was not, I am completely sure, attempting anything underhand.


There are some interesting issues here, but we're in danger of losing them in a welter of back-biting

Is it not possible to discuss it without it getting personal, please?


To come to the point:

Is "caveat emptor" now sufficient given the volume and complexity of the board?

does the staking board need more regulation?

if so, how? (staking mods/reputation threads etc)


Would far rather these things were discussed than specific stakes where views are so diametrically opposed, and it ends up with people who I know are ALL good guys getting mad at each other.

ty

[mondatoo]

That is what Alex and others are trying to portray in the' lets all have some fun angle'. Your approach provides this and you understand the value of getting say half the entry from people willing to give you a spin.

So are you saying this isn't a personal attack against Alex and that you can't see how this might, quite rightly, annoy him.

The whole idea of a group of people all being friends and hatching plans to screw backers on here for every cent possible, which is what you suggested was happening in an earlier post, is not only completely ridiculous, but also very offensive. You are question peoples integrity here and really do seem like you have a chip on your shoulder over something.

You do make some valid points, but they get lost in what just seems like a bitter attack. That said though I'm sure there are some people that do agree with you. However, I can gte you that my pov is not related to the fact I sell shares or that I know Alex better than you, I just think some of your comments are a bit out of order.

And fwiw, although it's plainly clear to see by the fact I haven't bid, I wouldn't pay 1.5 for Alex in a comp with such high rake, but as said how is it his fault that others have choosen to.

I also think the reserve thing isn't a great idea but he's acknowledged that himself.

[TightEnd]

Something to run by you

If the staking board had a system applied to it where, for example

- not playing a tourney for which you have been staked on blonde gets you a yellow card, where you can't ask for staking for a period of time.

- Any instance of delayed payment whatsoever would be a life ban from staking - blonde allow people to ask for staking on the basis you're not going to dick people about

The forum software has the facility to prevent any member from posting on the board

Thoughts?

[TL900]

Something to run by you

If the staking board had a system applied to it where, for example

- not playing a tourney for which you have been staked on blonde gets you a yellow card, where you can't ask for staking for a period of time.

- Any instance of delayed payment whatsoever would be a life ban from staking - blonde allow people to ask for staking on the basis you're not going to dick people about

The forum software has the facility to prevent any member from posting on the board

Thoughts?

illness or other (more important) commitments gets you a yellow card? seems harsh.

Agree with delayed payment (within reason)

[mondatoo]

Something to run by you

If the staking board had a system applied to it where, for example

- not playing a tourney for which you have been staked on blonde gets you a yellow card, where you can't ask for staking for a period of time.

- Any instance of delayed payment whatsoever would be a life ban from staking - blonde allow people to ask for staking on the basis you're not going to dick people about

The forum software has the facility to prevent any member from posting on the board

Thoughts?

I think the idea of a thread, which would be stickied, where everyone can see if someone has cancelled a stake, took a while to pay etc etc would be a really good idea.

If someone puts up a staking thread for one tournament, goes out the night before and cba to play the next day so cancels, then they should get a yellow card. If someone puts up a package for a few tournaments in a short space of time and chooses to miss one for a valid reason then a temp ban seems harsh.

[redarmi]

Not a big fan of the yellow card.  On a couple of occasions I have staked Dubai modestly and he has not played a tournament for whatever reason but tbh if he doesn't want to play it for almost any reason I would rather he didn't than played and just flicked it in.  Sometimes that may mean I lose out on a bit of EV but I am comfortable with that.  Also think the delayed payments would need to be dealt with carefully.  Iirc it took Keys a while to get the money to everyone after his Aussie bink because of various different issues that were pretty much out of his control.

[bobby1]

Something to run by you

If the staking board had a system applied to it where, for example

- not playing a tourney for which you have been staked on blonde gets you a yellow card, where you can't ask for staking for a period of time.

- Any instance of delayed payment whatsoever would be a life ban from staking - blonde allow people to ask for staking on the basis you're not going to dick people about

The forum software has the facility to prevent any member from posting on the board

Thoughts?

illness or other (more important) commitments gets you a yellow card? seems harsh.

Agree with delayed payment (within reason)

There is an issue with not playing events you have been staked for. You are potless, you ask for stake into an off the top of my head £500 tourney.

The tourney starts on Saturday and you pony up at the venue on Thursday and then use the cash you have got from the thread to play the cash games, if you win you keep the difference and buy into the event with the cash you have taken.

I suppose you can add betting shop or magic wheel to that too if you are proper degen.

If you do your cash in then you tell everyone the stake is off and that you will refund the cash, you then get xx amount of days to find the cash to pay back the stakers. In that spot the best thing that can happen is you use the cash and win before entering the event, the nut worst is the stakers get told a story as to why you couldn't play and then have to wait ages to get the cash back.

Now, extrapolate that to some of the big staking Vegas threads and see how it could be worked that you sell out a thread, take the money over there, use it to play some of the events you have sold for and get some returns. You then have days/weeks in between comps to play the cash games there with cash that partly belongs to others. If you win its yours, if you get daft and do it in then the stakers have to wait to get paid when you tell them 'sorry I dint feel right' or the many other reasons you could come up with.

thanks