Issues Arising from Staking

[SuuPRlim]

Tbf to wazz, the 2+2 thread he put up he even included a voluntary link to the previous debacle.  Ofc the ungracious could say that it was inevitably going to be pointed out pretty quickly anyway so it was nothing more than a preemptive move.

I think all the Vegas noobs that are putting up threads should learn from mistakes made by others and give a little more thought to what they might do with $200k if it happens to be their turn this year.  It is pretty hard to put "I'm worth 1.5" with "going to the Post Office" and "what's an ITIN" in the same sentence.

Hello Simon

I know what an ITIN is, and I know that if I transfer to my bank I am going to lose a couple of percent.  I go to Vegas every so often (probably not every year) so haven't got a dollar account.  And I am wise enough to know that I am not going to get my dollars at the post office.

Say I won $100k what are the other options other than taking it all as cash and trying to trade out with Players or taking that big bundle of cash in to London, which isn't something I'd be that happy doing.

To be fair, I didn't charge 1.1.

Cheers

Dooooooooooobs - Simon's post was kinda tongue in cheek but he makes a very good point, people bin off tens of thousands (and i'm not exaggerating) every year by being clueless buying and selling currency, and pretty smart guys too, who know that doing X give a better hourly than Y and ROI's are reduced or increased by Z, but then they'll stand there and wire money from RIO cage to their UK£ account and just bin off a big chunk of their money, without even knowing they've done it. Kinda blows my mind tbh, as it's so so easy to be organised with this stuff (it takes hardly any time) and it saves you thousands. You don't lose a "couple" of percent either, because of the way British banks work you actually lose 6/7 maybe even 8% - you get 2 sets of fee's and you take the banks "stnd" EX rate which is ALWAYS worse than the high street. To be totally honest taking the money home and walking into Thomas Cook saying I got $100k whats the best rate is a LOT LOT better than wiring to your bank.

If i bought a piece of someone in an american comp and they cashed and sent the money home to thier bank without asking anyone I'd be very tilted, if you wanna set 5% of your winnings onn fire be my guest but don't assume i wanna do the same!

Gotta agree with Simon, another reason why these vegas mark-ups are getting silly, people just hugely under-estimate vegas.

[Simon Galloway]

Doobs, (and this is with a wider audience in mind, I know you don't need the full version)

At some point, those dollars have to turn into pounds.  Every time that happens with a financial institution, they take a slice.  Spot rate (i.e. true worth) is $1.53 at the moment.  

Today you can get dollars for yourself at $1.52 at places like http://www.thomasexchangeglobal.co.uk/ but there are others, so it always pays to shop around.  That's pretty decent imo, not as good as trading at spot with someone who just came back, but if it isn't in such massive size that a wholesale currency deal can be struck at a fraction of a per cent, then it is certainly decent.  Much better than the banks.

Many players just wire $100k from a to b and say "ok, I got £63,291 for it.. your 10% is..." and they don't notice that the bank just got $1.58 from THEM.  Sometimes the inverted nature of the rates confuse people, they think $1.58 is great, but they don't notice that they are now having to hand over $1.58 to buy back each pound, so in fact it is worse than 1.53.

</intro>

It depends what you are doing, just playing for yourself or selling action, size, etc.  You can open a US bank account in 5 minutes in person in LV, I think there is a requirement to leave a few $k in there to avoid service charges and then you have a free repository.  You can deposit $$ there and then either leave it there and pick it up again next trip, or open an account with the same bank in the UK (typically again would need to leave a balance of a few k to avoid dormancy/service fees) and transfer across as you need.  At this point, everything is still in dollars, so $100k is still $100k.  You can either ease it out over time as future people look to buy $$, or take the hit and convert with a financial institution at the best rate you can find.

I think if you are selling action, it is right to offer the backers a choice to some extent ~ e.g. "Any winnings will be deposited into a US$$ account, backers can have me wire to another account according to their instruction (costs met by backer) or you can arrange physical collection of USD in person"

People are always going skint during WSOP, so whilst trading out might sound daunting, it would actually be very easy to unload.  You would easily be able to charge a vig as players would happily trade Stars + X% for live money ~ if you didn't want to charge a vig, there would be a long Q forming around the Amazon room for sure.  If people bought shares by poker site transfer, this would also make things easier to ship back to them on the same platform.

There isn't really a nut route - it depends if you want to trade/avoid trading, don't mind/mind carrying $50k on you and what the preferences of any backers are.  I think there are a variety of ways OP's can cover it - "I am charging 1.5 to cover fx costs, travel, massages and buffets and will pay everyone out @ spot on return" would be much better than "I'm easily worth 1.5... oh I've won $100k .. I have an 8foot novelty cheque..now what?"

Whilst backers are moaning about markups, in defence of sellers (new territory for me) some of that markup will go on fx costs.  People love to ship in xe.com amounts for their slice, but the OP will likely be taking a small hit on that (if they are wise) or a big hit on that (if they aren't) right out the gate.  So whether players ask for a small markup for that, or whether they elect to go buy $10k @ $1.52 today and charge everyone at that rate, doesn't really matter.

Prolly rambling now, but for anyone playing WSOP events each year, a US bank account seems sensible.  Trade out at spot with others, or if you need the ££, take the hit and trade with a financial institution that is BP.  The same company linked ^^ would buy back at 1.557 today, so that would be the price you are looking to beat.  And for $100k, I'd def be asking someone to tighten their spread a bit more for the size of the transaction too.

[StuartHopkin]

Interesting point to make....

If anyone does have $100k they need to change for sterling please PM me at the time.

[claypole]

Doobs, (and this is with a wider audience in mind, I know you don't need the full version)

At some point, those dollars have to turn into pounds.  Every time that happens with a financial institution, they take a slice.  Spot rate (i.e. true worth) is $1.53 at the moment.  

Today you can get dollars for yourself at $1.52 at places like http://www.thomasexchangeglobal.co.uk/ but there are others, so it always pays to shop around.  That's pretty decent imo, not as good as trading at spot with someone who just came back, but if it isn't in such massive size that a wholesale currency deal can be struck at a fraction of a per cent, then it is certainly decent.  Much better than the banks.

Many players just wire $100k from a to b and say "ok, I got £63,291 for it.. your 10% is..." and they don't notice that the bank just got $1.58 from THEM.  Sometimes the inverted nature of the rates confuse people, they think $1.58 is great, but they don't notice that they are now having to hand over $1.58 to buy back each pound, so in fact it is worse than 1.53.

</intro>

It depends what you are doing, just playing for yourself or selling action, size, etc.  You can open a US bank account in 5 minutes in person in LV, I think there is a requirement to leave a few $k in there to avoid service charges and then you have a free repository.  You can deposit $$ there and then either leave it there and pick it up again next trip, or open an account with the same bank in the UK (typically again would need to leave a balance of a few k to avoid dormancy/service fees) and transfer across as you need.  At this point, everything is still in dollars, so $100k is still $100k.  You can either ease it out over time as future people look to buy $$, or take the hit and convert with a financial institution at the best rate you can find.

I think if you are selling action, it is right to offer the backers a choice to some extent ~ e.g. "Any winnings will be deposited into a US$$ account, backers can have me wire to another account according to their instruction (costs met by backer) or you can arrange physical collection of USD in person"

People are always going skint during WSOP, so whilst trading out might sound daunting, it would actually be very easy to unload.  You would easily be able to charge a vig as players would happily trade Stars + X% for live money ~ if you didn't want to charge a vig, there would be a long Q forming around the Amazon room for sure.  If people bought shares by poker site transfer, this would also make things easier to ship back to them on the same platform.

There isn't really a nut route - it depends if you want to trade/avoid trading, don't mind/mind carrying $50k on you and what the preferences of any backers are.  I think there are a variety of ways OP's can cover it - "I am charging 1.5 to cover fx costs, travel, massages and buffets and will pay everyone out @ spot on return" would be much better than "I'm easily worth 1.5... oh I've won $100k .. I have an 8foot novelty cheque..now what?"

Whilst backers are moaning about markups, in defence of sellers (new territory for me) some of that markup will go on fx costs.  People love to ship in xe.com amounts for their slice, but the OP will likely be taking a small hit on that (if they are wise) or a big hit on that (if they aren't) right out the gate.  So whether players ask for a small markup for that, or whether they elect to go buy $10k @ $1.52 today and charge everyone at that rate, doesn't really matter.

Prolly rambling now, but for anyone playing WSOP events each year, a US bank account seems sensible.  Trade out at spot with others, or if you need the ££, take the hit and trade with a financial institution that is BP.  The same company linked ^^ would buy back at 1.557 today, so that would be the price you are looking to beat.  And for $100k, I'd def be asking someone to tighten their spread a bit more for the size of the transaction too.

Yes its not tricky....I opned a First Direct US$ account pretty quicky, then shopped around at the various Forex places to secure best rate - including fee less transactions for first trade.  Simpel to fund US$ account then and ship funds to Rio.  In the unlikely chance I bink I can then ship back to First Direct and again use someone like UKForex to get best rate for stakers.  It's pretty painless to be honest and lilDave is right - just laziness for anyone taking say over $10k.

Also if taking a smaller amount, Id just open a $$$ count and have it ready just in case, FD charged no account fees so free to maintain

[Doobs]

Thanks for your post Simon. 

I have used thomasexchange* in the past, and tend to have a few dollars to add to the fund from last time.  Would be a novelty to come back with more than I went with and guess I (or you!) should put some thought in to it. 

Thanks  very much

* love urls with a double meaning, anyone want sexytime should go to http://www.analemma.com/ , if you enjoy yourself there, you could always buy her a gift at http://www.whorepresents.com/

[titaniumbean]

Those URLs are great rofl

[rfgqqabc]

I'm looking for a post by Redarmi, that detailed markups and how the maths worked surrounding these and returns to both investors and players.

I believe it was in Alex's topic that got deleted, he mentions here. http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=60757.0

Is there a way to view that post? Could a mod pm me to it so I don't have to bother Stu again?

[TightEnd]

Adam

I have looked in the original Alex deleted thread

this was the redarmi post in it

I think the problem is that as a staker you need an edge too.  So my maths on this was as follows for the Monte Carlo.  I will be staking you at a value of £1650 (1100*1.5) so on the amount that goes into the prize pool you need to have an ROI of 65% before I even break even.  Now lets assume I want the same return on my money that you are getting ie 50% then  your ROI in this tournament has to be 245%.  Now of course I could argue that I would take less but I also have to take into consideration the chance of not being paid (this is absolutely no refelction on you but just a reality of staking).  I would never take a stake which I expected to return less than 15% on my money no matter who it was so you have to be worth  1.897 before I could even consider it.  I am not sure anyone is worth that in this tournament no matter how good they are and even then you would have an earn rate well above mine for an event we are effectively partners in.

[rfgqqabc]

Adam

I have looked in the original Alex deleted thread

this was the redarmi post in it

I think the problem is that as a staker you need an edge too.  So my maths on this was as follows for the Monte Carlo.  I will be staking you at a value of £1650 (1100*1.5) so on the amount that goes into the prize pool you need to have an ROI of 65% before I even break even.  Now lets assume I want the same return on my money that you are getting ie 50% then  your ROI in this tournament has to be 245%.  Now of course I could argue that I would take less but I also have to take into consideration the chance of not being paid (this is absolutely no refelction on you but just a reality of staking).  I would never take a stake which I expected to return less than 15% on my money no matter who it was so you have to be worth  1.897 before I could even consider it.  I am not sure anyone is worth that in this tournament no matter how good they are and even then you would have an earn rate well above mine for an event we are effectively partners in.

Seem to remember it was more complicated than that lol. Thanks for your help Rich.

[Simon Galloway]

Nice bump!  Lovely thread..

[pleno1]

interesting to see the minimal amount of staking threads on blonde these days, are people just put off? or just sell to friends if they are going to sell at reasonable prices anyway?


i.e player x could sell at 1.1 to friends or 1.3 to the average joe so he sells at 1.3, but then after all this semi aggro stuff he just decides to sell at 1.1 and may aswell send to friends.

[TightEnd]

There have been 15 staking threads live on here during July, 6 live and 9 online

in terms of volumes, more is happening on facebook these days i notice

the appetite for mark-up amongst buyers on here has reduced substantially, dating from around mid 2013 pre-Vegas, and that has persisted. Probably a sign of a more mature (mature=slower growing, rather than emotional faculties!) marketplace

[cambridgealex]

Some of us are banned

[BulldozerD]

More likely it's the time of year rather than any shift in the "market"?
ie post Vegas lull, no real big tournaments/series right now either online or live?

I'd expect to see a glut of threads in next couple of weeks for sky ukpc and then others for WCOOP etc. since the WSOP I don't think there have been many reasons for a glut of staking threads.

[DungBeetle]

Not so sure.  The large mark ups of 18 months ago were heavily defended by the stakees by saying the market decides the price because the packages were selling out.  In the long term it seems the market has spoken.