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Author Topic: ISPT Forfeiting your Day 2 Stack (And Any Other Thoughts)  (Read 6510 times)
Mitch
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« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2013, 03:31:49 PM »

Rob covered on the main thread why they didn't allow the 'take your biggest stack through' idea, which I initially thought was the best way to go about things to have a chance making the guarantee.

Think the main reason was because the event is heavily aimed at recreational players, and he didn't want pros who could have multiple bullets at getting big stacks to be at such a huge advantage.
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gs08bjohnson
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« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2013, 03:34:52 PM »

People seem to be overlooking day 2b. I personally will be taking any stack through (whilst punting late on day 1 if I'm very short) if its a small stack I'm unlikely to get through the day, if I do then great, if not you can play 2b. I'm pretty sure selling action for this comp won't be difficult for most people. I know this doesn't account for all factors, most obviously that day 1s will probably be much softer and a better chance to accumulate chips and that some people can't afford 3k. I just hadn't seem any mention of day 2b in anyone's thoughts.

I think it would've been pretty good for the prize pool if people could play as many day 1s as they like and take their best stacks through.

Not sure what you mean sir  ?

In the main we have been discussing taking short stacks into Day 2  players can choose   A or B   

Sure.... if you were to enter A and bust you could re enter B but of course that would cost 3K

That's more or less exactly what I was implying.
I mentioned this wasn't an attempt at a solution to the question I just wanted to add another factor and that's if you take your day 1 stack through and bust you can re-enter, yes albeit for 3k. Its something that will affect my decision on whether to trash a stack, which definitely seems like something I wouldn't do.
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gs08bjohnson
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« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2013, 03:39:20 PM »

Rob covered on the main thread why they didn't allow the 'take your biggest stack through' idea, which I initially thought was the best way to go about things to have a chance making the guarantee.

Think the main reason was because the event is heavily aimed at recreational players, and he didn't want pros who could have multiple bullets at getting big stacks to be at such a huge advantage.

Yeah this is fully understandable, and laudable that he has binned the idea since he really needs every entry he can get guarenteeing so much ftw. It wasn't me saying I wish this had been done, merely suggesting it would make the biggest prizepool. Having said that, even the recreational players want to see the biggest prizepools they can and people re-entering and binning equity has to be good for everyone.
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smurf
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« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2013, 03:48:21 PM »

Rob covered on the main thread why they didn't allow the 'take your biggest stack through' idea, which I initially thought was the best way to go about things to have a chance making the guarantee.

Think the main reason was because the event is heavily aimed at recreational players, and he didn't want pros who could have multiple bullets at getting big stacks to be at such a huge advantage.

+1

The event is aimed at recreational players and I read Rob some where saying he hopes a non pro goes on to win (I'm recreational  )



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claypole
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« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2013, 04:58:48 PM »

I think I am not forfeiting any stack; especially if I manage to rack up 4/5 bullets and go through early; off course you lock up the refunds and as Ben said then 2b is an option using the refunds. Maybe if I don't have multiple 300 tickets and I am under say 10k with a few day 1s to go I may give up.  But to be honest think I'd rather use the remaining 300 bullets towards 2b and spin the short stack.

The issue with forfeiting as well is everyone talking like they are "certainties" to spin up a bigger stack. Whilst there will be spots in all the satellites, it's not like anyone is a certainty. Even if you think your ROI is 200% in the field, your still simplistically 1/5 each bullet theoretically with ave stack.  It is tricky....I'm I the don't forfeit any day two stack unless an absolute bowl, justbpissing equity away refund other tickets buy in Day 2b if no spin.

Obv helps living a 10 min train from Wembley on exes etc.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 05:10:11 PM by claypole » Logged
fizix87
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« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2013, 04:59:12 PM »

Some serious under valuing of the value of any day 2 stack by some people

While I am all for other people lighting their equity on fire, me personally I don't think it's a great idea
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Vinodh
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« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2013, 05:17:19 PM »

I guess forfeiting the stack will be extremely rare. There are so many people trying to get as many day 1 seats as possible. So, since there is an option of getting a refund for any unused 300 tokens, people would definitely try to get a decent stack as early as possible ( atleast closer to 50k) within the first few attempts. In my opinion, my "forfeiting stack" would be only if its less than 5k.
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gs08bjohnson
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« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2013, 07:30:25 PM »

Some serious under valuing of the value of any day 2 stack by some people

While I am all for other people lighting their equity on fire, me personally I don't think it's a great idea

This is very true. It is also why multiple attempts where you take your best stacks is good for the recreational player, as so many so-called pros will be under-estimating the value of their already achieved day 2 stacks and adding a lot of value to the prizepool for the recreational players.  By not allowing this Rob has increased the chance of a non-pro winning the event by far, however it is to the detriment of the tournaments 'value'.  I'm not saying one way is better than the other, just pointing something out that may have been overlooked when the decision was made.

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FUN4FRASER
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« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2013, 07:44:03 PM »

Some serious under valuing of the value of any day 2 stack by some people

While I am all for other people lighting their equity on fire, me personally I don't think it's a great idea

Some serious under valuing of any day 2 stack ? 

A lot of People have views based on circumstances. For example Boba Fett traveling from Edinburgh is likely to view stack sizes differently to claypole who resides 10 minutes away.

Others may have multi tokens but might not have the cash to buy into day 2B

Generally I think the opinions have been quite well balanced , but the concensus seems to be in an ideal world nobody wants to forfeit

Not sure what you are using to gauge your comments  but if you are  thinking 15/20 bigs is playable then maybe everybody is " seriously undervaluing"

If I am lucky enough to progress to Day 2  I have a minimum figure in mind where Id like to be stackwise albeit if I have " lit my equity" to get there.
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Boba Fett
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« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2013, 07:53:16 PM »

Anyone burying a 2a stack to re-enter 2b? 5bbs?
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fizix87
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« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2013, 10:37:22 PM »

Some serious under valuing of the value of any day 2 stack by some people

While I am all for other people lighting their equity on fire, me personally I don't think it's a great idea

Some serious under valuing of any day 2 stack ? 

A lot of People have views based on circumstances. For example Boba Fett traveling from Edinburgh is likely to view stack sizes differently to claypole who resides 10 minutes away.

Others may have multi tokens but might not have the cash to buy into day 2B

Generally I think the opinions have been quite well balanced , but the concensus seems to be in an ideal world nobody wants to forfeit

Not sure what you are using to gauge your comments  but if you are  thinking 15/20 bigs is playable then maybe everybody is " seriously undervaluing"

If I am lucky enough to progress to Day 2  I have a minimum figure in mind where Id like to be stackwise albeit if I have " lit my equity" to get there.

I probably should have expressed myself better, what I meant to say is that the 'value' of any short day 2 stack is very significant, and therefore forfeiting any such stack is going to likely be a pretty significant equity mistake. Playability of that stack is a different issue, I am simply thinking in terms of much money your chips are worth.

Playing the later levels of a day 1 in a more aggressive/'gambly' manner is very different and really just comes down to personal preference (some people are going to feel 'uncomfortable' coming back for day 2 with a shorter stack)

Expenses are of course a relevant consideration for many people (as is the possibility of direct buyin to Day 2b), myself included since i live in Glasgow, however my point is that they don't impact the value of your stack in EV terms

I also appreciate that different people have different motivations when the enter a poker tournament, and therefore might want to make a decision that enhances there enjoyment of playing the tournament rather than purely thinking in terms of EV, but I think it's important to acknowledge that distinction
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cambridgealex
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« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2013, 11:19:47 PM »

Vgood post fizix
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« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2013, 02:13:38 PM »

I think the idea of forfeiting a guaranteed day 2 stack, whatever the stack will not happen.... What it should be is anybody qualifying for day 2 under the 50,000 average has the option of re entering a future day 1 but if they don't 'beat' their previous day 2 stack then they still keep their original day 2 chips.
That would have bumped up the numbers a little. That would have given those with multiple day 1 tokens the chance to use them all to get the max stack they can get, hence saving all the €300 token refunds and adding to that hard task of making €1.000.000 prize pool for 1st
I would be surprised to see if anybody will forfeit a day 2 stack incase they don't qualify at all the next time as 90% of the field are eliminated.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 02:18:31 PM by LB44 » Logged
DTD-ACES
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« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2013, 04:01:05 PM »

I guess forfeiting the stack will be extremely rare. There are so many people trying to get as many day 1 seats as possible. So, since there is an option of getting a refund for any unused 300 tokens, people would definitely try to get a decent stack as early as possible ( atleast closer to 50k) within the first few attempts. In my opinion, my "forfeiting stack" would be only if its less than 5k.

Not a single player has EVER forfeited a stack since we allowed this into our re-entry rules, this was after players continually asking for us to allow this option, Even for the £50 Grand Prix, there were zero forfeits. 
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mumblesrock
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« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2013, 09:58:56 AM »

I have got this exact dilemma now...... made it through to Wembley last night online but with a 21k stack, the thought of binning this stack for another attempt seems tempting apart from the thought of not getting through again!! will it be a playable stack?? any thought?? its a dilemma for sure! its got my scratching my head. 
Only 29 made it through last night, a bit gutted cause I did have over 40k with 40 players remaining but was card dead or behind some serious action when I had playable hands.
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