The Wild Rollercoaster - Just A Kid With A Lifelong Dream

[celtic]

Oh the busto hand? JJ into A10 for about 11 bigs, shoved from middle position, ace on the turn...standard really

What was the 86 hand you were talking about on fb? I just assumed that was your exit hand?

[Tommy Bingham]

Blinds: 100/200/25
Starting Stack: 19,500
BTN With  
UTG+2 Limps, HJ Limps, CO Limps, BTN Raise to 950
Blinds Fold, Fold, Fold, CO Calls

Pot: 2,850
Board  

CO Checks, BTN Bets 1,800, CO Calls

Pot: 6,450
Board   ( )

CO Checks, BTN Bets 4,200, CO Calls

Pot: 14,850
Board   ( )

CO Checks, BTN Bets 8,000, CO Calls

CO Shows   wins an 8 High Flush
BTN Shows   loses with 3 of a Kind - Tens

----------

Right, i'd been pretty active...I was very aware of that, and the cutoff had not been getting tricky (in fact very few people had) and had in fact been VERY face up, the two hands he had made monsters of had been raised in peoples faces, so him calling the flop roughly told me a decent equity hand, but not much past that, 10's down, suited connectors, that sort of thing....when the flop came down and i c-bet his call wasnt all that quick but he displayed no sign of weakness...im not putting him on 8's or a 10 because given how he's been playing they get stuck in my eye on the flop...I'd imagined either a pocket pair or a single eight...When the turn hits and i fire the second bullet im 100% confident im still ahead, but aware of the second heart im trying to price that kind of crap out (Was this enough to do that?), this time however he's staring me out...and i mean intensely staring me out, it struck me his hand was crap and he was just wondering if i had the ten...so im basically commiting to my read at this stage, most likely an 8 given how he calls the flop. He eventually dwell calls. When the river hits (Wrongly) im not too scared of the flush. Im fairly confident in the idea nobody on my table was loose enough to call the flop with nothing more than a backdoor, and if ive got him on the 8, he straight up can't have two hearts...that said his dwell-stare call made me feel a river bet gets called by worse almost all of the time given how active ive been...i thought the shove could put him off given that it was an effective all in for him (roughly the same starting stack)...the 8k was purely a value bet basically...

Now im probably the worst. And will likely get abused for this hand. But i had my reasoning behind it all...I just could not put him on the flush given how the hand went down, i didnt think he was that daft to call off on the flop. And i stand by the idea stronger hands on the flop would have made themselves aware...he had not demonstrated any way to be tricksy...

*Cowers in the corner*

IMO, there are several things wrong with this hand and also your reasoning behind it. If we base everything on your reasoning and break it down.
Firstly, you've been shown to be active (as quoted), so after 3 limpers being on the button this early in the comp and isolating with J10o is incorrect imo. Yes, antes are in etc. But in a Grand Prix, a £50 comp. Generally 90% of the time anyone who limps is calling a raise. So you end up just buillding a big pot pre with a marginal/dominated hand vs 3-4 players. Limpers in this comp, know people are gona call behind them and not reraise behind them as they want to see a flop. So I find it kind of hard to have three limpers before you both fold in this spot or get only one to call (especially if you have been active as quoted). If this is the case, the original imper expects you to raise anyway, so he is either trapping and gona reraise you, or call any raise as he is expecting you to. Then the chain of call, call, call takes effect.

Anyway, only one calls. So we see a 10 10 8 flop. Nearly 3k in the pot and we bet 1800. OK np. I prefer alot smaller, 1100-1400 something along them lines. He calls.
"im not putting him on 8's or a 10 because given how he's been playing they get stuck in my eye on the flop"
If is he is the sort of person to put it in your eye if he has it, why would he in this spot on this board? if he has 10X, 10 8, or 88. Why would he raise, allowing AK, AQ, KQs etc to fold easy? He would be holding the deck and just wouldn't raise.

We go to the turn and our read is he doesn't have a monster cus he would raise us on the flop. So why bomb 3/4 pot? There's no combos that allow him to continue to this bomb. We put him on marginal at this spot so against marginal, villian is pretty much drawing dead. So why again give him to chance to fold? If we go along to lines of your CBet, there's 6450 in the pot. Bet 2000-2500, even less. Then we are setting up funky spot where we can get funky on the river and have him guessing. We don't need to charge him to see river and hit his draw as we can't see how he has a draw! I would much rather you keep it small throughout on this dry board and take the extreme of a BOMB river. Betting small aswell, opens it up for opponent to raise us on the turn for alot smaller. If we bet, 2000. He can easily go 5000+ etc. Where as if we bet close to 5k. He can only jam and will only do so if he has a monster cus he is that sort.

river.

'Im fairly confident in the idea nobody on my table was loose enough to call the flop with nothing more than a backdoor, and if ive got him on the 8, he straight up can't have two hearts..'

Why would we bet 8k if we feel he only has an 8. IMO, all stages have allowed him to fold hands we can/should be getting value from. If we take the line of small, small, BOMB. Atleast we should be guaranteed 2 streets and him hopefully leveling himself on the river. With a bomb, bomb, bomb, (at this stage) he has a chance to fold each street. And as he is the sort (as quoted) to tell you he has a big hand, we are fairly certain we are winning, he doesnt have full house, doesnt have flush, doesnt have 10X and only has a pair of eights. So why scare him off?

And then he calls and shows ze-flush.

There are a few things that don't add up in my opinion. Firstly, why would he just call river? He has a flush so should stick it in your eye when he has a monster.

So really, what fullhouse combos that WE have play this way that make him just call?

OK.. 88, 55, 33, 108 etc. Really?!
Even X 10h. Yes suppose so, but would we really take this three street line vs this player?

So what is he scared of? Why would he call a flop bomb and turn bomb and to hit is backdoor to just call? If he is the sort that tells you he is strong, why would be "sigh, i got flush, call." We having him beat just doesn't make sense imo.


Couple of other things. And this isn't a witch hunt, I am just wanting to know facts thats all.

1) You posted on facebook we lost to runner runner 68o.  not .
On here this is your key hand ( ) but your bust out hand was a standard JJ v A10 for 11 bigs?

So what relevance does the 86o play?

2) It is very likely, imo that we are the limper. The hands were reversed. We have J10o. Decide to peel an active player on the button and flop trips. So we don't raise flop, cus we should have his range crushed and trapping. He bombs turn as he has a flush draw and straight draw and wanting you to fold 99 8X, 77, 66 etc. We just call expecting him to bet river big. He hits river and bombs. We can't put him on a flush. Only call as there is no value in raising as no worse hand can call. That makes sense.

3) I am in no way a Hand History coach, Pleno, Tomsom or another sicko, so maybe completely incorrect about the whole hand.

[Tommy Bingham]

I agree with wotrthwchances. Assuming he's not on some level, I think the hand is fine.

I also think there are too many people that want to ridicule Peter, and dissect any hand he plays, then disguise it as trying to help.

I am in no way ridicule Pete, at all. I know he may have an opinion of what I have said to him on facebook messenger and shizz. But, I am one of the guys actually trying to tell him how it by being a blunt as possible (to help him out) and not in anyway to be nasty, be funny or insensitive to him.

[Ice Shade]

Oh the busto hand? JJ into A10 for about 11 bigs, shoved from middle position, ace on the turn...standard really

What was the 86 hand you were talking about on fb? I just assumed that was your exit hand?

Right disregard every edit ive done, my phone doesnt lie and after checking my notes page (should really have done this first) this hand history is entirely accurate, and my facebook post was rushed out/wrong...

Note to self: Quit jumping the fucking gun :\

[Tommy Bingham]

Oh the busto hand? JJ into A10 for about 11 bigs, shoved from middle position, ace on the turn...standard really

...apologies for that im basically retarded.

Completely lost it.

[Ice Shade]

Oh the busto hand? JJ into A10 for about 11 bigs, shoved from middle position, ace on the turn...standard really

What was the 86 hand you were talking about on fb? I just assumed that was your exit hand?

Ah bollocks, just re-read that and ive got the hand history wrong, he had and the first flop card was the .....apologies for that im basically retarded. Doesn't change anything in the scope of things though, need to proof read more
(EDIT: Actually that does mean a straight's hit....right now i really am the worst :\)

lol, np. Yeah doesn't specifically change the hands outcome. Floated, flush/straight draw, BINK.
I personally also would be interested in peoples opinion on my view of the hand history to see if I'm am thinking correctly also

Read the re-edit, my facebook post is what's wrong...im a complete spack i swear xD

[Ice Shade]

Oh the busto hand? JJ into A10 for about 11 bigs, shoved from middle position, ace on the turn...standard really

...apologies for that im basically retarded.

Completely lost it.

LOL!

[Rexas]

Blinds: 100/200/25
Starting Stack: 19,500
BTN With 
UTG+2 Limps, HJ Limps, CO Limps, BTN Raise to 950
Blinds Fold, Fold, Fold, CO Calls

Pot: 2,850
Board 

CO Checks, BTN Bets 1,800, CO Calls

Pot: 6,450
Board  ( )

CO Checks, BTN Bets 4,200, CO Calls

Pot: 14,850
Board  ( )

CO Checks, BTN Bets 8,000, CO Calls

CO Shows  wins an 8 High Flush
BTN Shows  loses with 3 of a Kind - Tens

DISCLAIMER

The thoughts and opinions expressed here are entirely my own unless otherwise stated, and they are aimed at being constructive and honest as much as is possible.

The hand as played

I agree with a lot of what Tommy said about how this is played. I actually probably would raise this pre, to a similar size, although I also don't mind overlimping. Either way, I like pre.

Flop, I definitely make this smaller. We have this board pretty locked down. We should expect to have the best hand here a lot of the time, and also expect the guy to have a pretty weak range on this board. I would like to give him as much of an opportunity as possible to continue, so I would bet like 1200. I sorta don't mind the logic of "if he's calling 1200, he's probably calling 1800" because tbh, he probably would with all his straight draws and pairs, so I guess I don't mind it on the flop.

On the turn, however, I feel like we have to bet small. By betting this big, we make it so so hard for anything to call. We want his straight draws to call, we want his bad pairs to call, and in my opinion by betting this big we are putting loads of pressure on his range, which we don't want to do. We want him to call. So, i bet like 2500 as played, or if ive bet the flop smaller id bet like 2000 here.

River, when he checks, as played again I bet smaller to try and get value from his still very weak range. Actually, if we bet smaller otf and ott, I bet relatively big, because I find bet small bet small bet bigger doesn't often get a lot of respect, and if he does happen to have a hand that he decides to bluff catch with, we still charge him. We also make it easier for him to have a hand that wants to bluff catch, because we've bet much smaller on the previous streets and allowed him to come along for the ride. So in this case I'd probably flick out a 5k chip with as much arrogance as I can muster. Again, though, as played, I think we've narrowed his range down to basically just an 8, or maybe 99. Either way, I think we still want him to call, and our line looks pretty darn strong. So I make it smaller relatively, betting like 6.5k. Your sizing leaves you with 4,550 behind, which is not great. Better to either get all of it in, or less. If we're so sure he's ahead and not folding, jam. Definitely something worth looking at, bet sizing relative to stack sizes is very important. Imo, less, in the early stages of this tournament.

I certainly don't think this hand is completely butchered, in that you chose to bet each street, which is definitely good, just in my opinion there's some work that could be done on bet sizing based on your opponents range, to consistently get max value.

Some Questions

I, again, sort of have to agree with Tommy. I don't think I have ever seen someone float with two unders and no draw on a paired board out of position before. Your sizing, and the amount you leave yourself with afterwards, does not strike me as something you would do. Contrary to Tommy, though, I think you were probably calling rather than raising. Maybe he raised, you called, he cbet the flop, you called, and he check called turn and river. I don't know. Either way, it seems strange to me. What seems particularly strange, however, is what you wrote on facebook. "That lasted 90 minutes...and a bad beat sends me out  Should be on around 45k atm, runner runner with 68o says i cant beat it" is the status just after you bust. Now, there is a big difference between 86o and 64hh, beyond a simple mistype. My memory, for one, is good enough to remember a hand history immediately after a bust out, and certainly would not improve in the space of time between the status and posting on blonde some time afterwards. There is also an implication that this was the bust out hand, and it again strikes me as odd that there is no mention of a JJ into A10 for 11 bbs, especially since you are known for being very good with tournament updates. Since we are in level 4 at the time of this bust out (100/200/25), and we had over 20bbs at the time of losing this hand, and we only lasted 90 minutes in the comp, we must have lost at least one hand within the space of an orbit to have that stack remaining. Did something happen involving pocket 4's in that time?

I would like to apologise, completely, if I'm wrong about this. But I think it's pretty undeniable that there are some discrepancies in the information provided, and I have done my best to back up what I've said with fact. I do feel that the questions raised have not yet been satisfactorily answered, and that as someone who is very heavily involved in staking, transparency about these things is very important. You are a nice guy, for sure, and an increasingly more well known member of the poker community. If anything, this is showing how important it is to watch what you say when you do become a little more public, a trap I've fallen into several times myself :p

[theprawnidentity]

I think the main issue that people have has been overlooked somewhat.  I could write an essay about it, but I’ll keep it simple.  Your staking activity has alarmed quite a large number of people.  You’re investors on FB or from wherever else think they’re getting a deal they’re not.  They are taken in by your ‘passion’ for the game and people want to give you some money thinking that they are making some kind of investment.  From what I’ve seen and heard from people, they are not.

There has been numerous suggestions that your HH and trip reports have not been up to scratch both in terms of detail or accuracy.  If this true, you have perfectly innocent people investing money in you based on something you have made up.  Nobody has a problem with your love for the game, or this diary, but on a personal level it bothers me that you have no money to play these games and are taking money from others.  Selling 90% of yourself for a tournament is, in my opinion, completely unacceptable.  

Having a dream is great, but having other people foot the bill for it is not.  There are people on here, some extremely capable and successful players, who have spent a lot of time writing out extremely long winded explanations for just about every aspect of the game and as far as I can see, you really don’t care.  You say you want to engage with the poker community, but all I’ve seen is you say “OK yes I get it now” but then just carry on as you were.  You show hardly any understanding at all about the game.  If you were a winning player, you wouldn’t be selling 90-100% of yourself to buy into £15 comps.

Just saying you’ve played 170 games and made some money doesn’t for one second mean that you’ve proven yourself.  It just shows a complete lack of respect for variance.  As an example, here’s a graph for my last 200 180man SNG's:



By this standard, I must literally be the worst reg going (and I’m sure that someone will be round shortly to confirm that).  I have seen nothing in this thread, or heard anything from anyone to suggest that you’re a winning player.  Selling 90%+ of yourself is just not the done thing in poker, if you can’t afford to buy in yourself (and I’m not talking about selling pieces for BRM purposes), then just don’t play.  I’m more than happy to have passionate people in the game, after all that’s what makes the game so great.  But having other hardworking people foot the bill for your gambling habits just isn’t right.

[redsimon]

Can confirm tomsom87 is tez at 35 dollar mttsngs:)

[millidonk]

Can confirm tomsom87 is tez at 35 dollar mttsngs:)

he also needs staking to play a few $5 twisters.. there are some harsh truths in his post tho.

[YEAHMAN123]

jesus tomo! talk about kick a man when he's down! hope you sleep well at night...... were not all twister bosses ya know. ur such a jerk sumtimes . i wear a cricket box now cos u keep kicking me in the nutts

[Rexas]

jesus tomo! talk about kick a man when he's down! hope you sleep well at night...... were not all twister bosses ya know. ur such a jerk sumtimes . i wear a cricket box now cos u keep kicking me in the nutts

Honestly Ross, I think Tom is just voicing an opinion held by a fair few people, which has developed as a result of these questions not being satisfactorily answered. While the post may be a little blunt, it's contents have been mentioned before and largely ignored. I agree with Tom, and will continue to do so until I have been shown otherwise.

[YEAHMAN123]

Yeah Matt I understand totally, Tomo's first lines when I met him was 'Ross your crap at poker' ( still says it now ) lol. And now were like buddies yay. I posted last night to Pete on Facebook, think he needs a break that's all just chill out and step back from this game, it can be crazy and I wouldn't want to see anyone upset from any of this banter, cos aside from how any of the posts read we do all care for the game and players in it )))
Xxl anyone tonight!? It's singles night! Or if ur lucky enough to have a bird who's into poker, the perfect night out

[celtic]

I think it would be a good thing if pete came on here and replied to the posts that have been made.