HUNL Veteran getting back on track in 2014!

[SuuPRlim]

my very very very very, i must stress very uneducated opinion on plo is that everybody is terrible, bluffcatch way too wide, even consider bluff catching way too wide, 3bet way too wide pre flop, call 4bets way too wide pre flop and generally gii way too wide.

wish i knew the game better and could say the above was true and would just short stack plo and try to print.

dat variance though.

Well, you're not completely wrong, except in everybody, you have been watching HS games, and the thing about HS games online these days (25/50+) is that a lot of the regulars who play these games are quite a bit weaker than players who play a bit lower - I've played 2/4 and 25/50 on ipoker this week and honestly the 2/4 games are so much tougher. I know this sounds pretty counter-intuitive but its actually pretty logical;

the mid-stakes games are tough, and hard to escape out of, you need good BRM and to never tilt, it's pretty hard to move from 2/4 - 10/20 without running really good, so lots of very very very good players get kinda stuck in those levels, due to a bit of poor variance at highest stakes they play (which will often be lower samples) also, some people aren't quite cut out for high high stakes gambling and are happier to stay lower. On the contrast to this there are a lot of guys playing reg in high stakes that built their bankrolls in times when the games below were a lot easier and now they have the bankroll to comfortably play 25/50, 50/100 - because i) those games only often run with a "weaker" player in them, and ii) because they don't need to drop back into 3/6 and 5/10 you will find that these guys are below "the curve" as it were in terms with online poker.

Obviously then above that you have THE very best players, your Sauce's, Kanu's, Galfonds etc who are playing the highest limits against the best players because they are the best players.

So yes, rail a 50/100 PLO game on stars and you will see a fair bit of play that is decently below the standard of good 3/6 - 10/20 regs, but these players are defo still profitable and i'd imagine most are making a significantly higher hourly than guys in the pools below them. But if you were to rail a 3/6 game on Stars on a Thursday afternoon I reckon you'd change your views somewhat.

Would be interesting to hear Big Roger's views on the difference in level between the stakes, given you've played a pretty wide variety of stakes.

When you say people bluffcatch way too wide, I agree 100%, everyone calls rivers way to wide, even really good players, I don't think in general people 3bet pre-flop to wide though, obv some people do and we can print these guys, but there will be so many hands that are 3bet and taken down on late streets that are really good 3bets, and occasionally you 3bet a kinda that way at the bottom of the range you'd wanna 3bet, and you run into the top hands of the person you're 3betting and you look a little silly but remember in PLO it's pretty tilt getting 3bet.

People DEFO DEFO DEFO call 4bets too wide, huge leak everyone has - spesh at high stakes, but that's a sort of semi-adjustment to the fact people lose there brains at HS, they really do.  Also, calling 4bets is ridiculously good fun, which is prolly the main reason. I had a hand today for e.g 60bb deep @2550 I open UTG, btn calls, BB squeezes I pot 4bet he calls AK74ds ... Can't imagine that is a very good play. I don't have to have AA here, but if I dont then I have AKK, KK[sick card-sick card]ds or AKQ*ds so mmmm not so sure about that, that was fairly big winner in those games too.

I actually think people in general prolly GII too tight...

[celtic]

I don't play online, rarely get heads up, but enjoy the diary a lot.

I know who you are, but don't know you, if that makes sense. Feel free to remain anon for as long as you want.

Good luck with it all.

[pleno1]

That ak47 hands is exactly what I meant yeh.

My theory, again could be very wrong. Is that these guys are similar to Mtt players who can't handle the variance themselves so are all stakes and just pushing ridiculously thin edges.

You're right I don't watch any 2/4-360/6 games but regularly rail 10/20 and there was supposedly the best reg and we were watching him 3bet round 50% vs a guy who folded to few 3bets and then they'd both flop a pair and gii.

Also saw a pretty interesting hh today.

Utg opens 5 handed and theoj calls bb.

Flop k92r

Check/raise/click/click gii

Kk9x vs 99xx

Ofc probably a little cold but we tried to brake the hand down a little bit and the guys I was with who play PLO were saying that utg could be clicking it back bluffing here but I literally haven't seen a PLO player check raise/fold

Some people may know that I've been playing a bunch of 5 card recently and I've really been trying to get deep into it. HUDs aren't available and people are playing really really,poorly.

Right now if you took a Mtt reg and put him in no limit he'd probably struggle to beat 50nl but I feel like a good no limit player can go to 3/6 5 card and probably beat the game after very few hands of experience. It just feels Ike everybody wants to punt so so much.

It will be really interesting to see how PLO evolves in 3 yers. At this relative stage of no limit holdem online people were 3.5xn the button as standard and they were considered "unbeatable" games and the regs were supposedly the best there will ever be etc etc krantz was playing 40knl and folding t9o heads up to a min raise...

[RogerHairabedian]

Interesting...

I can't comment too much on 6 max or PLO, I really haven't played much at all. In NL it's becoming increasingly hard to move up and progress through the midstakes games just because the overall standard is much higher. I very much doubt we'll ever see someone like Jungleman go from NL200-5k in a few months.

There are a lot of solid regulars at 3/6-10/20 just avoiding the variance of the higher games. If you can win say $25k a month grinding those games without hefty swings, why even bother with higher? I wouldn't say those guys are anywhere near the standard as say the 5k regs on 6max at stars (forhayley et al) though. Depending on the network, you can get very soft line ups in the biggest of games... but i'd still say that the higher games on average have a higher level of play. It's just one whale/recreational player runs the action on that table so regs often adjust and play a different strategy from their norm in order to win the fish money.

In terms of HUNL (my speciality!) I wouldn't say there are any massive jumps in skill level until you get to 25/50. 25/50 is the absolute wall in terms of HUNL and if you're beating that particular limit on stars vs regs you are basically top 20 in world. Just look at the guys playing that stake currently and it doesn't lie.. WCG, Ike, Kanu, kaby, I mean how does anyone go from 5/10 to beating those guys? It's a very tough environment. That combined with a lot of networks removing high stakes tables (ipoker, party etc) just makes moving up very difficult.

Agree on the calling of 4bets too wide in PLO - however, it's just so hard not to peel

The 99 vs KK on K92r just seems bad to me if at 100bbs?

[pleno1]

edit, will wirte longer post later.

[SuuPRlim]

The other point aswel is that in order to get into that bracket of "the best" you have to get to 2k, 5k games where THE very best players play and play vs those guys... When 63/6 - 10/20 is so tough these days (comparable to 2 yrs ago) it's very difficult to justify taking like a 50/60k shot vs people who are better than you are now it's not as easy to move down and win it back.

What happens is you just shot take in rec games and whereas this is an absolutly fine thing to do it doesn't help your progression up the ladder (except winning money obv) that exactly where i am in my career I'm OI as far as being the best I just wanna make monies and enjoy myself :-)

[Mondeoman]

When I read your opening post I had to check twice that I hadn't written it myself.  Had a very similar past few years playing similar games and similar stakes. 
I definitely found last year tougher than previous ones, the standard in general IMO seems to have improved somewhat. 
I also really struggle to get through books! (been stuck on Shantaram for about a year now)

What are your views on game theory optimal play?  I've never really studied it much but all the players I respect the most (Haxton/Kanu/Sauce) seem to be big advocates of it.
I'm currently remodeling some of my game to be more in line with this fundamental theory.  In my view a lot more players at medium/higher stakes are implementing this strategy and leaks are becoming more difficult to find.

Finally claiming you're a veteran at 25 depresses me somewhat!

25 is pretty old by today's standards!

Personally, an understanding of GTO is quite crucial. Implementing the actually strategy yourself is very difficult however, so I tend to focus on playing exploitatively myself. Try searching some threads on 2+2 and railing some of the big guns, to work out what they are doing (and why obv).

Perhaps we've played? More than likely to have done.

If you ever sit in 6 max games around 10/20 level then almost certainly yes.  I play a lot of heads up but not really on heads up tables (unless im punting in a HU hyper!).

I'm also heading out to Deauville - whether you like France or not you should enjoy the games out there.

[SuuPRlim]

hands! graphs! brags! horrible beats!

Give the fans what they want!

[rfgqqabc]

In live mtts would you ever A) limp the button, B) Limp the small blind. I've started to do both a little bit in certain spots but its obviously impossible to work out at the table and only experiencing x situations.

With regards to the anon thing, I think its fine to post here as anon. Dan Carter posted acknowledging he knows the guy, so that makes it fine as we know he isn't fraudulent or w/e.

I had a weird spot to do with screen names and the like recently. In Edinburgh a mate shouted across from a table over asking me my stars name as he couldn't quite remember it. I shouted it over and the Czech guy next to me perked up. "Is that your screen name or a friends?" he said. I replied saying it was mine and he told me we'd played a lot. I asked him if he played hi/lo and he said no but we've played a bunch. I ask him his name and he just smirks and turned back to play. Felt pretty brutal!

I've been sitting in ~ 5/10 PLO8 games lately to see what I can get started. How long should I play for if a good regular sits? Say its someone who I've not quit before but I dont want to play them this high or w.e. What if he has previously sat me that night/week/month? Instaquit or play 5-10 hands? I got sat last night by someone I wouldn't really want to play and we played 30 mins or so and then he went for a break, but I didn't stay seated after that as I didn't really want to play him. (And the games run very infrequently anyway)

[RogerHairabedian]

hands! graphs! brags! horrible beats!

Give the fans what they want!

I kinda got a bit annoyed at this thread:  http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=63077.0

Why does it matter if I want to remain anonymous or not? It's not like you'll go 'AHHHH IT'S HIM' when I tell you anyway, I'm an unknown! Also, as a newcomer to a forum, I literally know who no one is anyway. It's not like everyone has their IRL name as their account name.

Anyway.. bad couple of days results wise, but generally really happy with how I've been playing. Might post some HHs later this week, nothing too exciting been happening.

Went to watch my beloved Everton away at West Brom tonight. We were really really poor, and Lukaku in particular looked like he couldn't be bothered. Hope it's not the sign of things to come...

[RogerHairabedian]

In live mtts would you ever A) limp the button, B) Limp the small blind. I've started to do both a little bit in certain spots but its obviously impossible to work out at the table and only experiencing x situations.

With regards to the anon thing, I think its fine to post here as anon. Dan Carter posted acknowledging he knows the guy, so that makes it fine as we know he isn't fraudulent or w/e.

I had a weird spot to do with screen names and the like recently. In Edinburgh a mate shouted across from a table over asking me my stars name as he couldn't quite remember it. I shouted it over and the Czech guy next to me perked up. "Is that your screen name or a friends?" he said. I replied saying it was mine and he told me we'd played a lot. I asked him if he played hi/lo and he said no but we've played a bunch. I ask him his name and he just smirks and turned back to play. Felt pretty brutal!

I've been sitting in ~ 5/10 PLO8 games lately to see what I can get started. How long should I play for if a good regular sits? Say its someone who I've not quit before but I dont want to play them this high or w.e. What if he has previously sat me that night/week/month? Instaquit or play 5-10 hands? I got sat last night by someone I wouldn't really want to play and we played 30 mins or so and then he went for a break, but I didn't stay seated after that as I didn't really want to play him. (And the games run very infrequently anyway)

Interesting questions!

A) I haven't employed a limping strategy in any live MTTs I've played but it's certainly something I've thought about. I'm mainly worried about balancing it well vs stack sizes. Stuff like will my range be capped to the bottom 30% of hands when I limp the button vs 40+BB stacks in the blinds because I 'should' be raising the good hands. 

One very very good thing about limping is the price you get. Only risking 1bb to win 1.5bb + ANTES and IP for the rest of the hand. Plus if you feel very comfortable in your postflop game, you should have a decent edge vs most MTT players (who are generally stronger preflop) on turns and rivers.

B) Absolutely yes. This is much easier to balance too IMO. If you watch a lot of the HS cash games now a lot of guys are limping their entire range from SB. I guess it depends a lot on stack sizes and opponent in the BB... Are they going to defend extremely wide IP with just about any 2 if we open light? Are they folding too much if we raise? Are we superior postflop? Are they shallow enough that we can limp/jam our value hands etc.

With regards to the PLO8 reg..
1) You are not entitled to play anyone that you don't want to. When you're feeling good, fresh and your game is sharp - take on tougher players... You will learn a hell of a lot quicker than playing some random fish. You could also agree to play slightly lower if you feel more comfortable at a smaller stake.
2) Think about if you were in the position of that reg. He doesn't want to be Hit and ran, grimmed etc. So try and have some etiquette. If you are winning, I think giving 5-10 mins notice of leaving is pretty common and appreciated by the villain. If you're losing, leave when u want.

Obviously these are not set in stone, just try and have some common sense.

[lucky_scrote]

Dan Carter posted acknowledging he knows the guy, so that makes it fine as we know he isn't fraudulent or w/e.

No sorry I don't. I did take a look to see if I could figure out who he was (to see if he'd beaten me of course ) but with no luck.

When I played HU cash about 5 years ago I bum hunted because there were so many fish and most of the HU stt regs I played against were Danish/Swedish so I couldn't figure out who he was.

[lucky_scrote]

Don't you all think that him being Anon is way more fun anyway?

I'm enjoying this blog so f the haters. You come across well and spark some interesting debate.

GL in Deauville!!!!

[shipitgood]

Really enjoying your blog buddy.

Don't worry about what some one says on a forum.

Stay anonymous (or not), it really makes no difference either way.

Looking forward to more!

[celtic]

Would be fun if you won deauville next week and came back and said you busted, just to keep your anonymity.