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Author Topic: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?  (Read 17651 times)
Pinchop73
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« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2014, 01:54:29 PM »

Professionals want/need to earn money.

Recreationals want to have fun.

Infinite divergence in disparity.

Excellent professionals make an attempt to keep this disparity at a a minimum.

Average professionals go out of their way to make these two statements diverge to such an extent that the game no longer exists.
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david3103
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« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2014, 03:22:54 PM »

Professionals want/need to earn money.

Recreationals want to have fun.

Infinite divergence in disparity.

Excellent professionals make an attempt to keep this disparity at a a minimum.

Average professionals go out of their way to make these two statements diverge to such an extent that the game no longer exists.

Succinct and hits nail cleanly on head.
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rfgqqabc
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« Reply #92 on: February 08, 2014, 01:28:29 AM »

why is poker in the muck? there is often 3/4 big tournaments on the same day and all with 100s of runners.

Cash games are completely dead outside of London, and there are still a lot of comps failing to hit their guarantees. Maybe I'm getting a bad view of it from Notts/Essex, but for the most part the people I see in cash games are almost entirely regs, and even those guys are starting to stop coming. Seems everyone is either broke, a "pro" or moving down the stakes.

Shout out to cambridgealex currently lurking itt, the fourth option is they become "cash cows" Wink

£1/2 runs in a bunch of places if you know where to look. NE definitely has it 5-7 nights a week, Sheffield/Leeds both run a bunch. DTD isn't the only cardroom outside of London.

Incredibly dull topic.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 01:33:34 AM by rfgqqabc » Logged

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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #93 on: February 08, 2014, 12:36:19 PM »

I agree with Tikay - the old young debate is just finger pointing and defensiveness "Old says young is boring, so young say old is rude" and so on.

The reason this debate has spiraled out is because far too much practical professional gambling strategy has been talked about and posted on forums and in public. People have written articles about game selecting and blogged about "fish" and so on, it's a clear example, as Tikay said of some bright chaps (and mostly young guys - or guys who were young when they did it) with poker knowledge and technical ability in spades but zero social intelligence. Braggy, short sighted and extremely foolish and as a result proffessional gambling is paying the price for this right now. Krantz+co on 2months2million, all the cardrunners lot, and everyone who's followed them since has contributed to this, so thanks for that guys.

Some of the practical aspects of pro gambling are not too pretty/appear a bit predatory, this must be true of every industry, but poker+ gambling is, as far as I know the only industry that has openly and freely published and bragged about them. I've never seen a car forum where a good car salesman has come on and started bragging about people who are easy to sell cars too? The older generation of pro gamblers, whereas there are, imo, some general traits from that segment of players (very non specific and general) that I think the younger generations have improved on for better, this one thing is something that previous generations kept hush on and was much much better.

The industry as it stands right now is paying for big mistakes in the pretty recent past - the majority of the major culprits have made there money and left but it's no more than we all deserve to be quite honest. All you can do at the moment as a proffessional gambler is play the game in the correct spirit, play hard but play fair, and try consider the bigger picture and not just where the next £1,000 or £5,000 is going to come from.

But most of all, and MOST CRUCIALLY of anything you MUST MUST MUST try and think a little more before you speak, and DEFO before you wirte.

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tikay
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« Reply #94 on: February 08, 2014, 01:38:57 PM »

I agree with Tikay - the old young debate is just finger pointing and defensiveness "Old says young is boring, so young say old is rude" and so on.

The reason this debate has spiraled out is because far too much practical professional gambling strategy has been talked about and posted on forums and in public. People have written articles about game selecting and blogged about "fish" and so on, it's a clear example, as Tikay said of some bright chaps (and mostly young guys - or guys who were young when they did it) with poker knowledge and technical ability in spades but zero social intelligence. Braggy, short sighted and extremely foolish and as a result proffessional gambling is paying the price for this right now. Krantz+co on 2months2million, all the cardrunners lot, and everyone who's followed them since has contributed to this, so thanks for that guys.

Some of the practical aspects of pro gambling are not too pretty/appear a bit predatory, this must be true of every industry, but poker+ gambling is, as far as I know the only industry that has openly and freely published and bragged about them. I've never seen a car forum where a good car salesman has come on and started bragging about people who are easy to sell cars too? The older generation of pro gamblers, whereas there are, imo, some general traits from that segment of players (very non specific and general) that I think the younger generations have improved on for better, this one thing is something that previous generations kept hush on and was much much better.

The industry as it stands right now is paying for big mistakes in the pretty recent past - the majority of the major culprits have made there money and left but it's no more than we all deserve to be quite honest. All you can do at the moment as a proffessional gambler is play the game in the correct spirit, play hard but play fair, and try consider the bigger picture and not just where the next £1,000 or £5,000 is going to come from.

But most of all, and MOST CRUCIALLY of anything you MUST MUST MUST try and think a little more before you speak, and DEFO before you wirte.



Yes, just think first. In truth, the stuff is almost always Online, because they don't have to face the villain in the eye. In B & M poker, it is much, much, rarer. They would not dare.  

The more I think about this, even though rfgqqqhhjhff thinks the topic is incredibly boring, the more it fascinates me.

I'm more minded to think it is "pros v recreationals" than Young V Old.

I know this won't be well received, but I see it this way.

The poker economy is a perfect pyramid, with the big players at the top, & they get most attention, & respect, deservedly to a degree. It is often stated - wrongly - that they pay most rake, too. Also wrong.

Individually, yes, collectively, no way. The poker economy is built from the bottom, all the little guys, squillions of them. Without them, it's gg poker. It just is.

And yet, the guys that live off them - & I have no problem with them doing so, they deserve reward for their superior skills - routinely describe them as fish, morons, idiots, & the like. Don't believe me? Read some of the long-term staking threads, PHA's, or Blogs, where our hero describes the guys who beat them by playing hands badly as idiots, morons, fish, whatever.  

It's like you & me walking into Sainsburys, or Tesco, who depend upon us to earn a living, & the girl at the checkout routinely mocks us for buying the wrong stuff at the wrong price.

I know I'm ridiculously old-fashioned, & manners are out of fashion, but, imo, it is an attitude that makes no sense at all, & can only do harm.

Why would you ever be so rude to those who provide your income? Surely it'd be better to blow a little smoke up their arse, maybe even be respectful to the hand that feeds them?

« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 02:07:51 PM by tikay » Logged

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tikay
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« Reply #95 on: February 08, 2014, 02:05:38 PM »


I must add one point, though.

When they say such things about those that provide their income, they are not being intentionally rude, or deliberately spitting in their eye.

It is more likely, as Mr N says, that they do not THINK when they write these things, it has not occurred to them of the irony of their words. 

I know tons of these guys, they are mostly OK chaps, & I get along with them fine, & I can't imagine for a moment they are aware of the effect their words have.

Just a little thought required, that's all.
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« Reply #96 on: February 08, 2014, 02:12:24 PM »

I know tons of these guys, they are mostly OK chaps, & I get along with them fine, & I can't imagine for a moment they are aware of the effect their words have.

if somebody in a staking thread says "aruhgőrubfgh just lost AA to a fish to called a 3bet off 25 bigs with j9o" or changed that word to idiot, retard, mug, whatever else it isnt going to have any effect though?

if he calls him out personally, uses his screen name etc etc etc then sure, I agree that is bad, but most of the time people dont.
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tikay
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« Reply #97 on: February 08, 2014, 02:30:55 PM »

I know tons of these guys, they are mostly OK chaps, & I get along with them fine, & I can't imagine for a moment they are aware of the effect their words have.

if somebody in a staking thread says "aruhgőrubfgh just lost AA to a fish to called a 3bet off 25 bigs with j9o" or changed that word to idiot, retard, mug, whatever else it isnt going to have any effect though?

if he calls him out personally, uses his screen name etc etc etc then sure, I agree that is bad, but most of the time people dont.

Do you think it logical, or right, to even think that way?

When these lesser players donate, as they do most of the time, do we still want to mock them, the guys that pay the pro's wages? 8 times in 10 they lose the hand, that's fine, we say nothing, when the guy gets lucky, he is suddenly an idiot?

He is a customer. Think good things of him. He represents the pro's income. Look after him.
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« Reply #98 on: February 08, 2014, 02:37:29 PM »

sorry pads but you defo wrong on that one. IT DOES have a huge affect because of the overall image it portrays.

Whereas I think it;s incredibly disrespectful I don't think calling people fish on a forum has been a massive part of the problem, but the attitude that is behind it IS EXACTLY what the problem is and that's basically what JH is saying in this interview and I do agree completely.

I read an article 2 years ago by a very well respected UK guy (who i like) on Bumhunting HUNL online, i literally shrunk back into my chair with embarrassment at it, content like this has been published and talked about it public VERY openly and freely over the past 5 years, professional etiquette and basic common sense should make this stuff hugely taboo to talk about in public but for some reason it isn't.  People are extremely short-sighted and very small, relatively insignificant success has boosted far too many ego's into oblivion, imo.

The other sad part about this is that for every 20 people who behave properly, 1 person who doesn't can do far more damage than they can do good.
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« Reply #99 on: February 08, 2014, 02:44:00 PM »

How many of the people who post here/play regularly fell in love with poker despite consistently losing in their games regardless of how they were treated at the tables?  Going to be pretty low I'd guess.

The way I see it is as a cycle everyone who plays goes through:

1.You get introduced to poker through TV/friends/random event

2a. You win money/have a positive "experience" go to step 4

2b. You lose money/have a bad "experience" go to step 3

3. Stop playing

4. Keep playing, eat sleep dream poker.  Its fun, your amazing and going to win massive chunks of cash.

5. Read, discuss and learn that you aren't actually that good, study more, play a more "correct" probably less splashy fun style, experience variance etc and either continue to play and thrive or realise the game is actually a bit more boring than you thought and stop.

Online, all sites now have 1000s of regs across all of the "beginner" buy in levels hoovering up the new players money, timing down as they play 20 tables, not chatting or interacting at all with other players etc etc and basically creating a negative experience.

Local live games of all levels are now deepstacked to start putting new players at a bigger disadvantage and as numbers have reduced the regs/recs ratios again mean its harder still to fluke that early win.

So the biggest problem in the cycle now is that 2a is becoming so much rarer as the general standard at all levels is so much higher and keeps increasing.

How do you fix this?
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titaniumbean
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« Reply #100 on: February 08, 2014, 02:51:23 PM »

at least the poker sites are long term thinkers.
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pleno1
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« Reply #101 on: February 08, 2014, 02:57:33 PM »

Yeah it's pretty sick how poker players are the new who are getting all of the stick, repeatedly for the last 12 months.

What about the sites? They all do so much for personal greed rather than thinking about the LNG term and I Very rarely see anything wrote about them, pros speaking in interviews about them or threads on forums other than 2p2 bringing up serious issues.
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« Reply #102 on: February 08, 2014, 03:09:07 PM »

I know tons of these guys, they are mostly OK chaps, & I get along with them fine, & I can't imagine for a moment they are aware of the effect their words have.

if somebody in a staking thread says "aruhgőrubfgh just lost AA to a fish to called a 3bet off 25 bigs with j9o" or changed that word to idiot, retard, mug, whatever else it isnt going to have any effect though?

if he calls him out personally, uses his screen name etc etc etc then sure, I agree that is bad, but most of the time people dont.

On this point, the comment itself does not often have a direct effect, but a knock on one. If the top pros are seen to be using this sort of language in a public forum, those who are reading and who look up to them will start to copy them. It doesn't take long for these sorts of comments to leave internet forums and end up on social media sites. Then, someone like tony G or Phil helmuth is seen using this kind of language face to face, and again these new players copy their role models, and we end up in the situation that we're in today and discussing itt. Far from being an "incredibly dull topic", I think it's very important that people are aware of the power of words.

Basically, if the big boys make out that it's ok to call people names (regardless of their intent), this attitude will work it's way through the poker pyramid tikay is talking about.
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« Reply #103 on: February 08, 2014, 03:23:31 PM »

I know tons of these guys, they are mostly OK chaps, & I get along with them fine, & I can't imagine for a moment they are aware of the effect their words have.

if somebody in a staking thread says "aruhgőrubfgh just lost AA to a fish to called a 3bet off 25 bigs with j9o" or changed that word to idiot, retard, mug, whatever else it isnt going to have any effect though?

if he calls him out personally, uses his screen name etc etc etc then sure, I agree that is bad, but most of the time people dont.

On this point, the comment itself does not often have a direct effect, but a knock on one. If the top pros are seen to be using this sort of language in a public forum, those who are reading and who look up to them will start to copy them. It doesn't take long for these sorts of comments to leave internet forums and end up on social media sites. Then, someone like tony G or Phil helmuth is seen using this kind of language face to face, and again these new players copy their role models, and we end up in the situation that we're in today and discussing itt. Far from being an "incredibly dull topic", I think it's very important that people are aware of the power of words.

Basically, if the big boys make out that it's ok to call people names (regardless of their intent), this attitude will work it's way through the poker pyramid tikay is talking about.


then why is everyone suddenly listening to this sage of wisdom whilst he and his brother are the kings of classless at the table?


he hardly leads by example.
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« Reply #104 on: February 08, 2014, 03:32:09 PM »



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