AmayaStars

[tikay]

My gripe with this sort of sh*t is that i get spam mail daily from stars with Dnegs face on it. Did i receive an email about the currency exchange or rake hikes? did i balls. if it isn't illegal its highly immoral in my book. The walls are closing on a number of us.....meh.

Not really too bothered about this, tesco advertise every day on TV and they don't say when the price of bread goes up. The energy companies only announce price rises because OFGEM forces them to.

The issue is that there was room for Amaya to raise the rake and still make it viable for people to start games, but they chose to just rake the winner out of existence. The notion that it will all die down and be business as usual in a couple of weeks is just incorrect because the rake has been raised to a level at which it is impossible for anyone to win even with supernova elite rakeback.

I have a hard time seeing how raking the players that start games, fill the first 4 seats of a sit and go so that the recs can actually 'sit and go' rather than 'sit and wait for ages for a game to fill' like the regs do is good for recreational players.

I think we need to stop looking at these changes as being either 'rec friendly' or 'pro friendly'. Raising the rake and introducing big forex fees are bad for everyone that plays these games. It's only the pros complaining because we're the only players that are crunching the numbers. Everyone tooting Stars' horn seems to be forgetting that these changes hit the recs in the pocket too, they just don't know it.

!

I hope that does not refer to me Dan.

I'm just trying to give some balance to what is, at least on 2+2, a bit of a hysterical debate, with all this "save poker" stuff.

I don't have a flag to fly for 'Stars (think about it!), but I do know they are a great, great, poker site. Tweaking a few things won't change that.

Anyway, peace.

[TightEnd]

This looks a bit better than the letter you posted, Tikay

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=45091150&postcount=529

raidalot= talal shakerchi

[Marky147]

This looks a bit better than the letter you posted, Tikay

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=45091150&postcount=529

raidalot= talal shakerchi

Yeah, pretty shrewd gentleman, I believe.

[Rexas]

Even though people seem to be largely ignoring my posts on this thread for some reason, I'd like to draw everyones attention to another thread on here where we ended up discussing the cartels that have developed around the HU sngs. If I remember, the argument in those was mainly that if the recreational players knew that such things were happening, then that knowledge would kill the games because of the image it projects. Is this not exactly the same issue here? If the recs knew that Amaya was upping the rake and adding these new charges in, I'm sure they'd have something to say about it. Stars is taking away the ability to win at certain forms of the game. Some people were particularly vocal in saying that the whole cartel thing brought home to the recs that saw it how they could definitely not win at that form of the game. These changes, to those that see them, give exactly the same message.

[dreenie]

Well hu play below probably 200nl is unbeatable now with the rake being doubled. So nice to see these sites punishing the regs and helping out the poker ecosystem like we need.


The currency charges won't affect you directly, they will however effect fish who don't realise these charges exist, as I doubt Stars will have a huge ad explaining the changes.

Give me somewhere to go and I will boycott stars. Give me a site that doesn't mysteriously cancel tournaments when they would overlay. Give me a site without numerous thriving bot rings. Give me a site that doesn't charge on deposits/withdrawals whilst using a currency none of its consumers can actually use.


Tikay if you think a site that is beginning to promote unbeatable games is good for poker then you should continue championing stars's current approach. It will be found wanting in 3-5 years when the long term effects of these changes take place. However, I do agree this is good for Amaya in theory at the moment. Just seems very short sighted to me. They are rapidly losing any credibility that poker is a skill game, and it will only continue down this path whilst people try to capitalise on a poker market they think exists but really does not. Stars's "poker ecosystem" is/was vastly different to the ridiculous iPoker 1/iPoker 2 accident. For some reason the powers to be in poker have taken one event, small skins from the network handing out huge rakeback deals and never advertising to a new thought process that winning players are bad for the game. If you want low winrates you want regfilled games and not depositing fish. Stars are absolutely killing the golden goose in the form of hyper turbos. Yes you might pay 55% of what you take back to the supernova elites, but they provide thousands and thousands of games of liquidity. These guys are grinding out 2% after rakeback and the fucking idiots in suits think that is too much? They must be crazy. The million/warmup have 5 regs registering 6man sats virtually every waking hour of every day. Once these 5 go we suddenly need 6 recreational players to all fancy punting a mil sat instead of one. They are absolutely off their rocker getting rid of SNE in 2016. They will continue putting prices up and having people hail them as business geniuses until it all collapses.  There is no possible way they can gain the volume of the SNE players with recreational players. The market is getting smaller and not bigger.

Stars have just gone from having a player base that loves them to a player base that hates them, and this will pass onto the recreational players too. I have never promoted an online site that wasn't pokerstars whenever someone asked me at the table about online poker. Why would I? No one had anything to offer, no one currently does. Party Poker has tried to do a similar thing over the last two years, has failed miserably and is continuing to wither and die. It is very hard to continue to make money when a significant proportion of your playerbase hates you. Pokerstars are getting that way, and the hate will only spread as 2+2ers are grassroots poker. People actually think its a bunch of online players, when the majority are people who just like poker. Over 98% of registered users are amateur players, possibly even higher. Blonde poker definitely has a pro to amateur posting ratio that is off the charts compared to 2+2.

Tikay highlights a post from some guy who appears to be an absolute crackpot. I don't really see the relevance. There are 700 posts in one thread regarding this on 2+2, it doesn't really surprise me that a few are absolute bollocks. I'm sure some people read my posts and think its just more of the same shite. You can admire amayas business practices, but don't try and say it is good for poker. Poker as a game is beautiful, and whilst you might not like online poker/poker professionals, understanding that a healthy online poker scene is incredibly good for the long term nature of the game as a whole. I feel more and more like a raving lunatic on blonde at the moment, and its not particularly fun for me, although I enjoy writing these posts to some degree. It seems like these changes are being well received on here, despite being absolutely horrible for everyone. People seem to be enjoying seeing pros get fucked over, and I can't really work out why. The general sentiment seems to be that the corporation is finally sticking it to these nasty professional players with their all powering software when the reality is many pros would rather not deal with any software or bullshit at all and just play fucking poker. Seating scripts are good for fish, it means they play hands with more players in, and lose money slower and stay at the tables for longer. Why do you think Stars haven't gotten rid of them? Yeah they look horrible, but they help out the sites preventing headsup action.

I just want to wake up, load up my laptop, make hundreds of complex decisions for thousands of dollars and go to bed. Why is it so hard?

11 new posts, probably should start being a touch more concise.

Excellent post

[dreenie]

Having recreational players that play day to day or week to week a few hundred here and there are, I agree very important for poker and to make the economy exist. Not letting them know first hand by sending out multiple changes is IMO lazy and just highlights that the way the new owners do business is certainly not for the good of the player.

Like you say Tikay, so many recs won't know about these changes, from my circle who don't play for a living, they had no idea about the charges on deposits, do you think that's a fair way to go about your business?

I am not standing up for one side or the other, I am trying to state that all these changes in favour of themselves can never be good for poker, why do you think Rob has such a strong reputation and DTD is classed as one of if not the leading place to play live poker? Because he worked hard to build up his rep, he sticks to his word, and although it's a business and he's doing it to make money, he is also trying his hardest to find a balance where both player and owner are mutually happy.

If he thought sod all my regulars/pros, I'm just gonna go ahead and change everything for the better of myself, do you honestly think it would still be the leading place to play poker in 2 years time?

OK the charges don't affect us (if you even know about them), but they do affect people that are in a different country to use, is this fair? And the same goes for the format, it probably doesn't affect mtt players one bit (v.little if any) in the UK, but does that mean we should just say 'whatever it's happening deal with it' to all the ppl that have worked hard perfecting there style of format in poker for a number of years?

I believe the poker community should stick to together, after all that's what makes it so unique, players trying to look out for one another, the moment that changes and it turns to 'dog eat dog life' then poker will go downhill faster than a rat up a drainpipe.

Does everyone believe installing casino games onto pokerstars is going to be good overall for Online poker? Let's be honest, Full Tilt is a total farce hence why the need to try and appeal to the 'gamblers' and get them back on the site. Do any of you honestly believe that other sites are that incompetent they couldn't get a good schedule together? No is my answer, the bottom line is places like Coral, Ladbrokes william hill sky vegas/sky poker all have a massive base before Online poker boomed.

The betting shops are open till 10:00pm in the winter for a reason. I know many people myself included that have gone on tilt or had a drunken binge whatever you want to call it and gambled absolutely thousands of there cash in the casino games. Why would they start putting poker first? That is just an extra bonus for them IMO to earn some extra rake.

I specifically know of one good friend that religiously does at least £250 solely on Black jack. How many more do you think do the same on an average week?

Spin and go's are the same, the rec player absolutely loves them, same as the million, all these things imo are like buying a lottery ticket and seeing who can get the luckiest. So in turn the message the leading brand of poker is sending out is far from 'poker is a skill game' 'poker is equal to all'. Both these statements are absolutely not true when they have handled the changes the way they have.

If they really want to look out for there recreational's and other sites too then ban every piece of software and let's all start on a level playing field and see in 2 years time, who has been left behind.

[dreenie]

Not that they will worry to much, but I think Stars has lost me as a customer.

I have about 150k fpps to use up, which I will spend on the odd tournament when I am bored, but the way I feel now, I don't think I'll be depositing again.

IMHO cash them in or use them before the year is out. If these changes are anything to go by, then your points are going to be worth half what they are now in the new year.

You can play the sats to million (4500) hyper and generate loads of TT, and then sell them on for dollars to a website, the transaction happens instant once you enter your sn.

http://www.liquidpoker.net/sell-pokerstars-tournament-dollars

[DMorgan]

I'm not really talking as a pro ITT, I'm just talking as a person that enjoys playing poker. In my opinion these changes are bad for every stakeholder in the game of poker besides the rooms, their shareholders and their employees. As a pro I obviously have a bigger stake in poker staying accessible for all and the game being perceived in a positive way than your rec playing a tournament between hollyoaks and crossroads, but I just don't see how these changes and their knock on effects are not bad for him or her too.

I'm not anti big business per se and it was obviously coming when the Schoenbergs sold the conpany, but that doesn't mean I can't be disappointed that the vision for the future of Pokerstars spearheading the effort to have poker recognised as a skill game and to open up the game to millions of people through sensible regulatory legislation that differentiates poker from table games and lotteries has in my opinion been dealt a major blow.

[redarmi]

One thing that does surprise me is that tey have done this so quickly.  My assumption was that the value that Amaya saw in Stars was as a full service gaming company and that they would add a casino and sportsbook and probably even other games, bingo etc in fairly short order.  Seems quite bad to tarnish the brand with all of this stuff first as it will have a knock on effect to the other stuff when they could have shown revenue growth without it and done this stuff in a year or two to keep the revenue going in the right direction without getting the blame as the bad guys that screwed up Stars.  If they did it in a couple of years they could have probably got away with the rake increases etc on the basis of "poker ecology".  Seems poor management to me even if it was somewhat inevitable in the long run.

[DaveShoelace]

One thing that does surprise me is that tey have done this so quickly.  My assumption was that the value that Amaya saw in Stars was as a full service gaming company and that they would add a casino and sportsbook and probably even other games, bingo etc in fairly short order.  Seems quite bad to tarnish the brand with all of this stuff first as it will have a knock on effect to the other stuff when they could have shown revenue growth without it and done this stuff in a year or two to keep the revenue going in the right direction without getting the blame as the bad guys that screwed up Stars.  If they did it in a couple of years they could have probably got away with the rake increases etc on the basis of "poker ecology".  Seems poor management to me even if it was somewhat inevitable in the long run.

Get it all out now in one go, in six months time when everyone has forgotten and their liquidity hasn't even taken a hit, it will just be the status quo

[DMorgan]

!

I hope that does not refer to me Dan.

I'm just trying to give some balance to what is, at least on 2+2, a bit of a hysterical debate, with all this "save poker" stuff.

I don't have a flag to fly for 'Stars (think about it!), but I do know they are a great, great, poker site. Tweaking a few things won't change that.

Anyway, peace.

I was including you when I typed it but was a poor choice of wording so apologies for that

I meant the people that don't really see why this could be really bad for everyone. I sincerely hope that I'm wrong and it really is business as usual, or that Amaya uses some of the proceeds to fund a really clever marketing campaign that gets all of us talking about something else.

Actually I don't agree with the people saying that a casino and sportsbook on stars is a bad thing for the regs. I don't have any data to back this up but I suspect that a really high percentage of losing poker players play some table games and sports bet a bit already, they just do it on other sites that offer those services. Adding those services to pokerstars provides a more 'gambly' environment and the poker games will reflect that. Again it hurts the case for poker as a skill game when a case lands on a judges desk but I think that's pretty much a pipe dream now.

The thing that concerns me is that there is now a precedent for a form of the game that is raked too highly for anyone in the world (maybe besides jorj95) to be able to win at in the long run. I hope in a few years time we're not looking back at the 6max hypers rake changes saying that this was the writing on the wall and it was the first format to be raked into oblivion, with the others to follow.

[Royal Flush]

Why is the general consensus in this thread seem to be that we want a judge to rule poker is a game of skill? Surely we want the opposite.

[TightEnd]

an interesting perspective


Jesse May @ScurrilousMay 

Sites are big oil and grinders are gas guzzlers. Both have been wholly irresponsible for years. But energy was always unsustainable.


Jesse May @ScurrilousMay 

Poker conservationists are long called crackpots. But a change to renewable energy takes sacrifice from sites and grinders both.


Jesse May ‏@ScurrilousMay

Those inside the industry nod their head. The rest bury their head. Me caveman. Me bash people good. Where people go?

[doubleup]

Why is the general consensus in this thread seem to be that we want a judge to rule poker is a game of skill? Surely we want the opposite.

Presumably you are referencing tax?  As has been discussed previously, the judge, in the case that confirmed that poker wasn't taxable income, specifically stated that winning through skill was irrelevant.

[DaveShoelace]

Why is the general consensus in this thread seem to be that we want a judge to rule poker is a game of skill? Surely we want the opposite.

Presumably you are referencing tax?  As has been discussed previously, the judge, in the case that confirmed that poker wasn't taxable income, specifically stated that winning through skill was irrelevant.

Not just tax though, you want more gamblers playing the game. Don't want to go too heavy down the skill side and make the game intimidating to try, like chess.