The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[doubleup]

Godwin alert

Camel Nazism overwhelmed vast areas of Europe 75 years ago.  It was defeated

[The Camel]

Godwin alert

Camel Nazism overwhelmed vast areas of Europe 75 years ago.  It was defeated

There's 1.8 billion Muslims in the world.

Every time the west attacks another Muslim country and kills more innocent Muslim civilians, there will be ever more young Muslims angry enough to be radicalised to become recruits to take the place of the jihadists who have also been killed.

It will be a never ending spiral of violence, slaughter and death.

[The Camel]

Every enemy in a war before has the ultimate fear of being killed.

That's why armies who are overwhelmed by superior firepower and numbers ultimately surrender.

When the enemy has no fear of dying, indeed is prepared to blow themselves up in order to kill us, how do we beat them?

[titaniumbean]

Titters, go to iplayer and the parliament channel, you can scroll back and see as much as you want.

Just watched Benn's speech and he sets out the case for airstrikes in a very cool, clear and appropriately non jingoistic manner, considering the seriousness of the decision. Case made far better than Cameron could ever make it.

Also watched some of Cameron and found his, mass murdering etc soundbite to be incredibly callow and insulting to our intelligence

Fwiw, Benn starts at 21:30

ok ty anymore time stamps are appreciated!

[Doobs]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/watch-hilary-benns-extraordinary-speech-6944024

It is very good.

FWIW The choice isn't between innocent deaths and no innocent deaths, it is between two actions that will both lead to more innocent deaths.

[titaniumbean]

Godwin alert

Camel Nazism overwhelmed vast areas of Europe 75 years ago.  It was defeated

did it do it through conventional 'army vs army' style fighting or guerrilla warfare?

I honestly don't think ISIS can be beaten.

At least in any way we recognise victory at the moment.

War on Drugs

War on Terror

War on Poverty

War on anything woo yeh.




Agreed Doobs, it's just mind blowing we can allow DCam to say we must bomb and have a plan. so far we have the bombs and no plan, and a history of having no plan. LESSSSSGO BOYS.

Our capability to bomb people and places isn't going to go anywhere, it's not like no one else is just rando bombing the area. Lets focus on the other more important aspects.

[nirvana]

Every enemy in a war before has the ultimate fear of being killed.

That's why armies who are overwhelmed by superior firepower and numbers ultimately surrender.

When the enemy has no fear of dying, indeed is prepared to blow themselves up in order to kill us, how do we beat them?

I think the no fear of dying thing is massively over blown. Yes, there are some who are like this but not all Japanese in WWII wanted to die crashing planes into ships.

The people who fought for us in WWII were prepared to die to fight for the cause they believed in.

People  who joined the international brigade in Spain before WWII were prepared to die for the cause - there is just nothing unique about the fact that ISIL people are prepared to die for their cause

[nirvana]

Also the 1.8 billion Muslims thing is very misleading and in some ways quite insulting to muslims as though they are a teeming horde of suicide bombers. Even if this isn't what's meant it still doesn't mean much, It's like saying there are 5.4 billion non muslims - er whatevs.

The  UK muslim population is 2.7m

I think the numbers show that 700 have gone to Syria. So far as I can tell, there aren't many muslims over here committing atrocities - I mean actually none for quite a long time.

So, out of 2.7m there might be 750 radicalised enough to actually disrupt their settled and largely fulfilling lives over here to take action against us.

That really isn't very many and we've been bombing them for a year already - this shouldn't be the straw that breaks the camel's back

[nirvana]

Sorry, out of respect I wish I hadn't said 'none' - there have been some horrific individual attacks

[The Camel]

Also the 1.8 billion Muslims thing is very misleading and in some ways quite insulting to muslims as though they are a teeming horde of suicide bombers. Even if this isn't what's meant it still doesn't mean much, It's like saying there are 5.4 billion non muslims - er whatevs.

The  UK muslim population is 2.7m

I think the numbers show that 700 have gone to Syria. So far as I can tell, there aren't many muslims over here committing atrocities - I mean actually none for quite a long time.

So, out of 2.7m there might be 750 radicalised enough to actually disrupt their settled and largely fulfilling lives over here to take action against us.

That really isn't very many and we've been bombing them for a year already - this shouldn't be the straw that breaks the camel's back

The reason Muslims from the UK haven't been radicalised in the numbers they have in other countries is that they've got a pretty decent life here.

Their life is worth living. Thety have jobs, money and a decent standard of living.

Compare that to Muslims living in Palestine, who are living with bombs rainging down on their heads almost daily, what have they got to live for?

The idea of paradise and as many virgins as they can shake a stick at must seem pretty bloody tempting.

[doubleup]

Every enemy in a war before has the ultimate fear of being killed.

That's why armies who are overwhelmed by superior firepower and numbers ultimately surrender.

When the enemy has no fear of dying, indeed is prepared to blow themselves up in order to kill us, how do we beat them?

Every human being has a fear of death.  There are a minority who overcome this due to hypnotic style influences or extreme social pressure or insanity.  The destruction of the group makes these scenarios less likely.  There is as it stands virtually no chance that you or anyone you know will be killed by a terrorist.  What we have in ISIL is simply a barbaric regime who should be dismantled.  The UK Government should support those that have this goal and even though our contribution might be minor even trivial, we cannot exhort other countries to join the fight without making some sacrifice.

  

[The Camel]

Hunting down and killing Bin Laden was supposed to be the start of the end game wasn't it? People were celebrating like we'd won the Olympic games, X Factor, SCD and the World Cup all rolled into one when he was killed.

Well things have got a hell of a lot worse since that day.

I have no idea what a possible solution might be.

Most likely there isn't one.

But I am as sure I can be that bombing Syria will make the siutuation worse, not better.

[The Camel]

Every enemy in a war before has the ultimate fear of being killed.

That's why armies who are overwhelmed by superior firepower and numbers ultimately surrender.

When the enemy has no fear of dying, indeed is prepared to blow themselves up in order to kill us, how do we beat them?

Every human being has a fear of death.  There are a minority who overcome this due to hypnotic style influences or extreme social pressure or insanity.  The destruction of the group makes these scenarios less likely.  There is as it stands virtually no chance that you or anyone you know will be killed by a terrorist.  What we have in ISIL is simply a barbaric regime who should be dismantled.  The UK Government should support those that have this goal and even though our contribution might be minor even trivial, we cannot exhort other countries to join the fight without making some sacrifice.

  

I read somewhere that ISIS was more like a cult than a religion.

The leaders are like David Koresh and Jim Jones.

Except instead of 800 followers prepared to die for their warped beliefs, ISIS has 8 million.

That's fucking terrifying.

[nirvana]

Also the 1.8 billion Muslims thing is very misleading and in some ways quite insulting to muslims as though they are a teeming horde of suicide bombers. Even if this isn't what's meant it still doesn't mean much, It's like saying there are 5.4 billion non muslims - er whatevs.

The  UK muslim population is 2.7m

I think the numbers show that 700 have gone to Syria. So far as I can tell, there aren't many muslims over here committing atrocities - I mean actually none for quite a long time.

So, out of 2.7m there might be 750 radicalised enough to actually disrupt their settled and largely fulfilling lives over here to take action against us.

That really isn't very many and we've been bombing them for a year already - this shouldn't be the straw that breaks the camel's back

The reason Muslims from the UK haven't been radicalised in the numbers they have in other countries is that they've got a pretty decent life here.

Their life is worth living. Thety have jobs, money and a decent standard of living.

Compare that to Muslims living in Palestine, who are living with bombs rainging down on their heads almost daily, what have they got to live for?

The idea of paradise and as many virgins as they can shake a stick at must seem pretty bloody tempting.

Of course that's part of the reason and why it behoves us to do what we can to improve things for the poor, dissafected and persecuted. Many of the persecuted are Muslims and I'm sure they would appreciate our support - against assad, against the Saudi royal family, against Isis.  It's very complex and I'm just trying to point out that you can't talk about Muslim's as some homogenous entity or use the numbers as a rationale for why a tiny proportion cannot be defeated or massively suppressed and contained to a significant degree.

[nirvana]

I don't know where the 8m comes from but doesn't this mean instead of being terrified we should ensure 8 doesn't become 10 or 12. And I don't just mean by bombing them of course. Yr striking more fear into me than ISIL with yr doomsday thoughts