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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 56

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 1328538 times)
RED-DOG
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« Reply #16995 on: March 29, 2019, 10:10:32 AM »



My dad said, "If you're not in bed by midnight, come home.
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« Reply #16996 on: March 29, 2019, 11:09:28 AM »

Can somebody link me to an intelligent YouTube vid about freedom of movement pls

Something along the lines of I voted Leave primarily for improved immigration control but I didn’t know enough and now realise there would be even more freedom of movement after our exit

We’ve done the trade argument to death and wonder if we can put some focus on primary concerns many Leave voters held dear

How dare you raise the I word you racist.... Grin

Any chance that you might actually contribute something worthwhile to the debate some time?
Or do you save your thoughtful contributions for the Lodge?

I’ll contribute what the hell I want, my choice not yours
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« Reply #16997 on: March 29, 2019, 11:34:53 AM »

Can somebody link me to an intelligent YouTube vid about freedom of movement pls

Something along the lines of I voted Leave primarily for improved immigration control but I didn’t know enough and now realise there would be even more freedom of movement after our exit

We’ve done the trade argument to death and wonder if we can put some focus on primary concerns many Leave voters held dear

How dare you raise the I word you racist.... Grin

Any chance that you might actually contribute something worthwhile to the debate some time?
Or do you save your thoughtful contributions for the Lodge?

It is an odd phenomenon, the internet troll.

Small (almost irrelevant) point of order: we can add what I do for a living to the long list of things that Woodsey is ignorant of.

May I ask what it is you do for a living?

If you have already said I've either missed it or forgotten.

I’m technically an engineer (BEng), although I also have a Geography degree combined with Psychology. I work for the government investigating and prosecuting (as an ‘expert’ (thin brag) witness) large scale pollution events involving big industry, mainly those that impact waterbodies but also to land and air. I spend  ~10-15% of my time in court or on court prep, 30% on what we call ‘incident response’ and the rest office based/desk study.

Woodsey will be delighted to know that we have brought prosecutions against Sewage Treatment Works and no doubt will again, so his efforts on the rancid curry/toilet might not be entirely wasted when it comes to making my life a certain (infinitesimally small) amount less pleasant.


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tikay
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« Reply #16998 on: March 29, 2019, 11:42:59 AM »

Can somebody link me to an intelligent YouTube vid about freedom of movement pls

Something along the lines of I voted Leave primarily for improved immigration control but I didn’t know enough and now realise there would be even more freedom of movement after our exit

We’ve done the trade argument to death and wonder if we can put some focus on primary concerns many Leave voters held dear

How dare you raise the I word you racist.... Grin

Any chance that you might actually contribute something worthwhile to the debate some time?
Or do you save your thoughtful contributions for the Lodge?

It is an odd phenomenon, the internet troll.

Small (almost irrelevant) point of order: we can add what I do for a living to the long list of things that Woodsey is ignorant of.

May I ask what it is you do for a living?

If you have already said I've either missed it or forgotten.

I’m technically an engineer (BEng), although I also have a Geography degree combined with Psychology. I work for the government investigating and prosecuting (as an ‘expert’ (thin brag) witness) large scale pollution events involving big industry, mainly those that impact waterbodies but also to land and air. I spend  ~10-15% of my time in court or on court prep, 30% on what we call ‘incident response’ and the rest office based/desk study.

Woodsey will be delighted to know that we have brought prosecutions against Sewage Treatment Works and no doubt will again, so his efforts on the rancid curry/toilet might not be entirely wasted when it comes to making my life a certain (infinitesimally small) amount less pleasant.




Hugely off-topic, but presumably you are aware of this utterly fascinating case in the USA?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #16999 on: March 29, 2019, 11:49:41 AM »

Can somebody link me to an intelligent YouTube vid about freedom of movement pls

Something along the lines of I voted Leave primarily for improved immigration control but I didn’t know enough and now realise there would be even more freedom of movement after our exit

We’ve done the trade argument to death and wonder if we can put some focus on primary concerns many Leave voters held dear

I’ll see what I can find. It won’t be easy though, especially given that’s it not clear exactly what it is that people don’t like about immigration.

I’d say couldn’t be clearer, it’s the uncontrolled nature of it.
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« Reply #17000 on: March 29, 2019, 11:57:54 AM »

Can somebody link me to an intelligent YouTube vid about freedom of movement pls

Something along the lines of I voted Leave primarily for improved immigration control but I didn’t know enough and now realise there would be even more freedom of movement after our exit

We’ve done the trade argument to death and wonder if we can put some focus on primary concerns many Leave voters held dear

How dare you raise the I word you racist.... Grin

Any chance that you might actually contribute something worthwhile to the debate some time?
Or do you save your thoughtful contributions for the Lodge?

It is an odd phenomenon, the internet troll.

Small (almost irrelevant) point of order: we can add what I do for a living to the long list of things that Woodsey is ignorant of.

May I ask what it is you do for a living?

If you have already said I've either missed it or forgotten.

I’m technically an engineer (BEng), although I also have a Geography degree combined with Psychology. I work for the government investigating and prosecuting (as an ‘expert’ (thin brag) witness) large scale pollution events involving big industry, mainly those that impact waterbodies but also to land and air. I spend  ~10-15% of my time in court or on court prep, 30% on what we call ‘incident response’ and the rest office based/desk study.

Woodsey will be delighted to know that we have brought prosecutions against Sewage Treatment Works and no doubt will again, so his efforts on the rancid curry/toilet might not be entirely wasted when it comes to making my life a certain (infinitesimally small) amount less pleasant.




Hugely off-topic, but presumably you are aware of this utterly fascinating case in the USA?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis



It's Erin Brockovich all over again.
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« Reply #17001 on: March 29, 2019, 01:10:32 PM »

Can somebody link me to an intelligent YouTube vid about freedom of movement pls

Something along the lines of I voted Leave primarily for improved immigration control but I didn’t know enough and now realise there would be even more freedom of movement after our exit

We’ve done the trade argument to death and wonder if we can put some focus on primary concerns many Leave voters held dear

I’ll see what I can find. It won’t be easy though, especially given that’s it not clear exactly what it is that people don’t like about immigration.

I’d say couldn’t be clearer, it’s the uncontrolled nature of it.

The only uncontrolled immigration is the free movement of EU citizens. The economic benefit of this has already been established.
https://www.ft.com/content/797f7b42-bb44-11e8-94b2-17176fbf93f5

Those leave voters who saw this as a primary concern seem to have a substandard level of knowledge of geography and an over-inflated view of how many refugees from various conflicts have arrived here.
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MANTIS01
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What kind of fuckery is this?


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« Reply #17002 on: March 29, 2019, 02:00:28 PM »

Can somebody link me to an intelligent YouTube vid about freedom of movement pls

Something along the lines of I voted Leave primarily for improved immigration control but I didn’t know enough and now realise there would be even more freedom of movement after our exit

We’ve done the trade argument to death and wonder if we can put some focus on primary concerns many Leave voters held dear

I’ll see what I can find. It won’t be easy though, especially given that’s it not clear exactly what it is that people don’t like about immigration.

I’d say couldn’t be clearer, it’s the uncontrolled nature of it.

The only uncontrolled immigration is the free movement of EU citizens. The economic benefit of this has already been established.
https://www.ft.com/content/797f7b42-bb44-11e8-94b2-17176fbf93f5

Those leave voters who saw this as a primary concern seem to have a substandard level of knowledge of geography and an over-inflated view of how many refugees from various conflicts have arrived here.

Fosho the free movement of EU citizens is the issue and also fosho is the +EV economic value

But couldn’t open the link so can you confirm the study includes analysis of social infrastructure growth, success of integration, employment and wellbeing of existing communities, associated crime % of migrants etc..If it just extracts a single positive variable of dollar bills in isolation then meh.

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« Reply #17003 on: March 29, 2019, 02:11:40 PM »

Can somebody link me to an intelligent YouTube vid about freedom of movement pls

Something along the lines of I voted Leave primarily for improved immigration control but I didn’t know enough and now realise there would be even more freedom of movement after our exit

We’ve done the trade argument to death and wonder if we can put some focus on primary concerns many Leave voters held dear

I’ll see what I can find. It won’t be easy though, especially given that’s it not clear exactly what it is that people don’t like about immigration.

I’d say couldn’t be clearer, it’s the uncontrolled nature of it.

The only uncontrolled immigration is the free movement of EU citizens. The economic benefit of this has already been established.
https://www.ft.com/content/797f7b42-bb44-11e8-94b2-17176fbf93f5

Those leave voters who saw this as a primary concern seem to have a substandard level of knowledge of geography and an over-inflated view of how many refugees from various conflicts have arrived here.


Fosho the free movement of EU citizens is the issue and also fosho is the +EV economic value

But couldn’t open the link so can you confirm the study includes analysis of social infrastructure growth, success of integration, employment and wellbeing of existing communities, associated crime % of migrants etc..If it just extracts a single positive variable of dollar bills in isolation then meh.



The FT let’s me read one article a day I think, it’s sad you can’t access it because it covers a lot that might help you.

This is pretty comprehensive too
http://theconversation.com/what-eu-migration-has-done-for-the-uk-103461

There is a link to the full report there too.
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« Reply #17004 on: March 29, 2019, 02:52:45 PM »

Can somebody link me to an intelligent YouTube vid about freedom of movement pls

Something along the lines of I voted Leave primarily for improved immigration control but I didn’t know enough and now realise there would be even more freedom of movement after our exit

We’ve done the trade argument to death and wonder if we can put some focus on primary concerns many Leave voters held dear

I’ll see what I can find. It won’t be easy though, especially given that’s it not clear exactly what it is that people don’t like about immigration.

I’d say couldn’t be clearer, it’s the uncontrolled nature of it.

The only uncontrolled immigration is the free movement of EU citizens. The economic benefit of this has already been established.
https://www.ft.com/content/797f7b42-bb44-11e8-94b2-17176fbf93f5

Those leave voters who saw this as a primary concern seem to have a substandard level of knowledge of geography and an over-inflated view of how many refugees from various conflicts have arrived here.


Fosho the free movement of EU citizens is the issue and also fosho is the +EV economic value

But couldn’t open the link so can you confirm the study includes analysis of social infrastructure growth, success of integration, employment and wellbeing of existing communities, associated crime % of migrants etc..If it just extracts a single positive variable of dollar bills in isolation then meh.



The FT let’s me read one article a day I think, it’s sad you can’t access it because it covers a lot that might help you.

This is pretty comprehensive too
http://theconversation.com/what-eu-migration-has-done-for-the-uk-103461

There is a link to the full report there too.


Yo I read that but think it’s a red herring regarding social infrastructure and thus quality of life

It’s not enough to say EU migrants pay more in tax than they cost say the NHS

It’s about how much of their tax was used to invest in and grow the NHS to keep pace

If the answer is zero then quality of life for everyone goes down

As an example we have seen big cuts in police throughout a period of large net increase in migration, less housing, longer wait for GP and hospital appointments.

If we aren’t investing their positive tax contributions into social services growth I don’t believe continuing uncontrolled immigration solves this problem
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« Reply #17005 on: March 29, 2019, 03:07:28 PM »

Can somebody link me to an intelligent YouTube vid about freedom of movement pls

Something along the lines of I voted Leave primarily for improved immigration control but I didn’t know enough and now realise there would be even more freedom of movement after our exit

We’ve done the trade argument to death and wonder if we can put some focus on primary concerns many Leave voters held dear

I’ll see what I can find. It won’t be easy though, especially given that’s it not clear exactly what it is that people don’t like about immigration.

I’d say couldn’t be clearer, it’s the uncontrolled nature of it.

The only uncontrolled immigration is the free movement of EU citizens. The economic benefit of this has already been established.
https://www.ft.com/content/797f7b42-bb44-11e8-94b2-17176fbf93f5

Those leave voters who saw this as a primary concern seem to have a substandard level of knowledge of geography and an over-inflated view of how many refugees from various conflicts have arrived here.


Fosho the free movement of EU citizens is the issue and also fosho is the +EV economic value

But couldn’t open the link so can you confirm the study includes analysis of social infrastructure growth, success of integration, employment and wellbeing of existing communities, associated crime % of migrants etc..If it just extracts a single positive variable of dollar bills in isolation then meh.



The FT let’s me read one article a day I think, it’s sad you can’t access it because it covers a lot that might help you.

This is pretty comprehensive too
http://theconversation.com/what-eu-migration-has-done-for-the-uk-103461

There is a link to the full report there too.


Yo I read that but think it’s a red herring regarding social infrastructure and thus quality of life

It’s not enough to say EU migrants pay more in tax than they cost say the NHS

It’s about how much of their tax was used to invest in and grow the NHS to keep pace

If the answer is zero then quality of life for everyone goes down

As an example we have seen big cuts in police throughout a period of large net increase in migration, less housing, longer wait for GP and hospital appointments.

If we aren’t investing their positive tax contributions into social services growth I don’t believe continuing uncontrolled immigration solves this problem

Itis ludicrous that some people keep blaming NHS problems on immigrants.   Immigrants are significantly over-represented in the nursing profession and massively over-represented amongst doctors.   Sure without immigrants, you might have more space in the buildings. but your waiting lists are going to be much bigger.   

I know you love an anecdote, but I spent much of January and February watching a bunch of old white women getting treated by a mixed race group of doctors and nurses.   I didn't see a single non-white patient in the wards I was in.
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« Reply #17006 on: March 29, 2019, 03:14:25 PM »

real life examples don't cut it with Mantis
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« Reply #17007 on: March 29, 2019, 03:27:18 PM »

No no, quite the contrary...that real life story about what Doobs saw in January and February with the old white women and brown doctors has changed everything for me. Many thanks.
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« Reply #17008 on: March 29, 2019, 03:49:55 PM »

No no, quite the contrary...that real life story about what Doobs saw in January and February with the old white women and brown doctors has changed everything for me. Many thanks.


https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/workforce-and-business/workforce-diversity/nhs-workforce/latest


Medical staff

white 57.1%
non-white and unkniown 42.9%

37% of hospital doctors gained their primary medical qualification outside the UK. 20% qualified in Asia and 9% qualified in the EU. For GPs, 4% qualified in the EU and 13% qualified in Asia.
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« Reply #17009 on: March 29, 2019, 04:05:29 PM »

Can somebody link me to an intelligent YouTube vid about freedom of movement pls

Something along the lines of I voted Leave primarily for improved immigration control but I didn’t know enough and now realise there would be even more freedom of movement after our exit

We’ve done the trade argument to death and wonder if we can put some focus on primary concerns many Leave voters held dear

I’ll see what I can find. It won’t be easy though, especially given that’s it not clear exactly what it is that people don’t like about immigration.

I’d say couldn’t be clearer, it’s the uncontrolled nature of it.

The only uncontrolled immigration is the free movement of EU citizens. The economic benefit of this has already been established.
https://www.ft.com/content/797f7b42-bb44-11e8-94b2-17176fbf93f5

Those leave voters who saw this as a primary concern seem to have a substandard level of knowledge of geography and an over-inflated view of how many refugees from various conflicts have arrived here.


Fosho the free movement of EU citizens is the issue and also fosho is the +EV economic value

But couldn’t open the link so can you confirm the study includes analysis of social infrastructure growth, success of integration, employment and wellbeing of existing communities, associated crime % of migrants etc..If it just extracts a single positive variable of dollar bills in isolation then meh.



The FT let’s me read one article a day I think, it’s sad you can’t access it because it covers a lot that might help you.

This is pretty comprehensive too
http://theconversation.com/what-eu-migration-has-done-for-the-uk-103461

There is a link to the full report there too.


Yo I read that but think it’s a red herring regarding social infrastructure and thus quality of life

It’s not enough to say EU migrants pay more in tax than they cost say the NHS

It’s about how much of their tax was used to invest in and grow the NHS to keep pace

If the answer is zero then quality of life for everyone goes down

As an example we have seen big cuts in police throughout a period of large net increase in migration, less housing, longer wait for GP and hospital appointments.

If we aren’t investing their positive tax contributions into social services growth I don’t believe continuing uncontrolled immigration solves this problem

You do know that correlation is not the same thing as causation?
All those extra tax pounds were spent in other ways. Paying Carillion and Interserve loads of money to do jobs badly (or not at all) for one example. Pushing on with the ludicrous HS2 vanity train set for another.
All of your examples of how our ‘quality of life’ has fallen can be payed at the door of government. A Tory government at that. Or you could just say that it’s all down to the greedy bankers that caused the financial meltdown.

If you consider the global and national problems over the past 12 years then maybe all them EU nationals coming over here and paying their damned taxes have meant that we have had a softer ride than we might have done. In economic and QoL terms.

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