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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2180439 times)
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« Reply #16995 on: March 29, 2019, 02:11:40 PM »

Can somebody link me to an intelligent YouTube vid about freedom of movement pls

Something along the lines of I voted Leave primarily for improved immigration control but I didn’t know enough and now realise there would be even more freedom of movement after our exit

We’ve done the trade argument to death and wonder if we can put some focus on primary concerns many Leave voters held dear

I’ll see what I can find. It won’t be easy though, especially given that’s it not clear exactly what it is that people don’t like about immigration.

I’d say couldn’t be clearer, it’s the uncontrolled nature of it.

The only uncontrolled immigration is the free movement of EU citizens. The economic benefit of this has already been established.
https://www.ft.com/content/797f7b42-bb44-11e8-94b2-17176fbf93f5

Those leave voters who saw this as a primary concern seem to have a substandard level of knowledge of geography and an over-inflated view of how many refugees from various conflicts have arrived here.


Fosho the free movement of EU citizens is the issue and also fosho is the +EV economic value

But couldn’t open the link so can you confirm the study includes analysis of social infrastructure growth, success of integration, employment and wellbeing of existing communities, associated crime % of migrants etc..If it just extracts a single positive variable of dollar bills in isolation then meh.



The FT let’s me read one article a day I think, it’s sad you can’t access it because it covers a lot that might help you.

This is pretty comprehensive too
http://theconversation.com/what-eu-migration-has-done-for-the-uk-103461

There is a link to the full report there too.
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« Reply #16996 on: March 29, 2019, 02:52:45 PM »

Can somebody link me to an intelligent YouTube vid about freedom of movement pls

Something along the lines of I voted Leave primarily for improved immigration control but I didn’t know enough and now realise there would be even more freedom of movement after our exit

We’ve done the trade argument to death and wonder if we can put some focus on primary concerns many Leave voters held dear

I’ll see what I can find. It won’t be easy though, especially given that’s it not clear exactly what it is that people don’t like about immigration.

I’d say couldn’t be clearer, it’s the uncontrolled nature of it.

The only uncontrolled immigration is the free movement of EU citizens. The economic benefit of this has already been established.
https://www.ft.com/content/797f7b42-bb44-11e8-94b2-17176fbf93f5

Those leave voters who saw this as a primary concern seem to have a substandard level of knowledge of geography and an over-inflated view of how many refugees from various conflicts have arrived here.


Fosho the free movement of EU citizens is the issue and also fosho is the +EV economic value

But couldn’t open the link so can you confirm the study includes analysis of social infrastructure growth, success of integration, employment and wellbeing of existing communities, associated crime % of migrants etc..If it just extracts a single positive variable of dollar bills in isolation then meh.



The FT let’s me read one article a day I think, it’s sad you can’t access it because it covers a lot that might help you.

This is pretty comprehensive too
http://theconversation.com/what-eu-migration-has-done-for-the-uk-103461

There is a link to the full report there too.


Yo I read that but think it’s a red herring regarding social infrastructure and thus quality of life

It’s not enough to say EU migrants pay more in tax than they cost say the NHS

It’s about how much of their tax was used to invest in and grow the NHS to keep pace

If the answer is zero then quality of life for everyone goes down

As an example we have seen big cuts in police throughout a period of large net increase in migration, less housing, longer wait for GP and hospital appointments.

If we aren’t investing their positive tax contributions into social services growth I don’t believe continuing uncontrolled immigration solves this problem
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« Reply #16997 on: March 29, 2019, 03:07:28 PM »

Can somebody link me to an intelligent YouTube vid about freedom of movement pls

Something along the lines of I voted Leave primarily for improved immigration control but I didn’t know enough and now realise there would be even more freedom of movement after our exit

We’ve done the trade argument to death and wonder if we can put some focus on primary concerns many Leave voters held dear

I’ll see what I can find. It won’t be easy though, especially given that’s it not clear exactly what it is that people don’t like about immigration.

I’d say couldn’t be clearer, it’s the uncontrolled nature of it.

The only uncontrolled immigration is the free movement of EU citizens. The economic benefit of this has already been established.
https://www.ft.com/content/797f7b42-bb44-11e8-94b2-17176fbf93f5

Those leave voters who saw this as a primary concern seem to have a substandard level of knowledge of geography and an over-inflated view of how many refugees from various conflicts have arrived here.


Fosho the free movement of EU citizens is the issue and also fosho is the +EV economic value

But couldn’t open the link so can you confirm the study includes analysis of social infrastructure growth, success of integration, employment and wellbeing of existing communities, associated crime % of migrants etc..If it just extracts a single positive variable of dollar bills in isolation then meh.



The FT let’s me read one article a day I think, it’s sad you can’t access it because it covers a lot that might help you.

This is pretty comprehensive too
http://theconversation.com/what-eu-migration-has-done-for-the-uk-103461

There is a link to the full report there too.


Yo I read that but think it’s a red herring regarding social infrastructure and thus quality of life

It’s not enough to say EU migrants pay more in tax than they cost say the NHS

It’s about how much of their tax was used to invest in and grow the NHS to keep pace

If the answer is zero then quality of life for everyone goes down

As an example we have seen big cuts in police throughout a period of large net increase in migration, less housing, longer wait for GP and hospital appointments.

If we aren’t investing their positive tax contributions into social services growth I don’t believe continuing uncontrolled immigration solves this problem

Itis ludicrous that some people keep blaming NHS problems on immigrants.   Immigrants are significantly over-represented in the nursing profession and massively over-represented amongst doctors.   Sure without immigrants, you might have more space in the buildings. but your waiting lists are going to be much bigger.   

I know you love an anecdote, but I spent much of January and February watching a bunch of old white women getting treated by a mixed race group of doctors and nurses.   I didn't see a single non-white patient in the wards I was in.
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« Reply #16998 on: March 29, 2019, 03:14:25 PM »

real life examples don't cut it with Mantis
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« Reply #16999 on: March 29, 2019, 03:27:18 PM »

No no, quite the contrary...that real life story about what Doobs saw in January and February with the old white women and brown doctors has changed everything for me. Many thanks.
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« Reply #17000 on: March 29, 2019, 03:49:55 PM »

No no, quite the contrary...that real life story about what Doobs saw in January and February with the old white women and brown doctors has changed everything for me. Many thanks.


https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/workforce-and-business/workforce-diversity/nhs-workforce/latest


Medical staff

white 57.1%
non-white and unkniown 42.9%

37% of hospital doctors gained their primary medical qualification outside the UK. 20% qualified in Asia and 9% qualified in the EU. For GPs, 4% qualified in the EU and 13% qualified in Asia.
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« Reply #17001 on: March 29, 2019, 04:05:29 PM »

Can somebody link me to an intelligent YouTube vid about freedom of movement pls

Something along the lines of I voted Leave primarily for improved immigration control but I didn’t know enough and now realise there would be even more freedom of movement after our exit

We’ve done the trade argument to death and wonder if we can put some focus on primary concerns many Leave voters held dear

I’ll see what I can find. It won’t be easy though, especially given that’s it not clear exactly what it is that people don’t like about immigration.

I’d say couldn’t be clearer, it’s the uncontrolled nature of it.

The only uncontrolled immigration is the free movement of EU citizens. The economic benefit of this has already been established.
https://www.ft.com/content/797f7b42-bb44-11e8-94b2-17176fbf93f5

Those leave voters who saw this as a primary concern seem to have a substandard level of knowledge of geography and an over-inflated view of how many refugees from various conflicts have arrived here.


Fosho the free movement of EU citizens is the issue and also fosho is the +EV economic value

But couldn’t open the link so can you confirm the study includes analysis of social infrastructure growth, success of integration, employment and wellbeing of existing communities, associated crime % of migrants etc..If it just extracts a single positive variable of dollar bills in isolation then meh.



The FT let’s me read one article a day I think, it’s sad you can’t access it because it covers a lot that might help you.

This is pretty comprehensive too
http://theconversation.com/what-eu-migration-has-done-for-the-uk-103461

There is a link to the full report there too.


Yo I read that but think it’s a red herring regarding social infrastructure and thus quality of life

It’s not enough to say EU migrants pay more in tax than they cost say the NHS

It’s about how much of their tax was used to invest in and grow the NHS to keep pace

If the answer is zero then quality of life for everyone goes down

As an example we have seen big cuts in police throughout a period of large net increase in migration, less housing, longer wait for GP and hospital appointments.

If we aren’t investing their positive tax contributions into social services growth I don’t believe continuing uncontrolled immigration solves this problem

You do know that correlation is not the same thing as causation?
All those extra tax pounds were spent in other ways. Paying Carillion and Interserve loads of money to do jobs badly (or not at all) for one example. Pushing on with the ludicrous HS2 vanity train set for another.
All of your examples of how our ‘quality of life’ has fallen can be payed at the door of government. A Tory government at that. Or you could just say that it’s all down to the greedy bankers that caused the financial meltdown.

If you consider the global and national problems over the past 12 years then maybe all them EU nationals coming over here and paying their damned taxes have meant that we have had a softer ride than we might have done. In economic and QoL terms.

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« Reply #17002 on: March 29, 2019, 04:25:44 PM »

So within minutes of the Withdrawal Agreement being voted down, the word in the lobbies is that, guess what, Theresa May is looking to bring back her deal for a vote next week.

https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1111654741011021824
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« Reply #17003 on: March 29, 2019, 04:52:31 PM »

Can somebody link me to an intelligent YouTube vid about freedom of movement pls

Something along the lines of I voted Leave primarily for improved immigration control but I didn’t know enough and now realise there would be even more freedom of movement after our exit

We’ve done the trade argument to death and wonder if we can put some focus on primary concerns many Leave voters held dear

I’ll see what I can find. It won’t be easy though, especially given that’s it not clear exactly what it is that people don’t like about immigration.

I’d say couldn’t be clearer, it’s the uncontrolled nature of it.

The only uncontrolled immigration is the free movement of EU citizens. The economic benefit of this has already been established.
https://www.ft.com/content/797f7b42-bb44-11e8-94b2-17176fbf93f5

Those leave voters who saw this as a primary concern seem to have a substandard level of knowledge of geography and an over-inflated view of how many refugees from various conflicts have arrived here.


Fosho the free movement of EU citizens is the issue and also fosho is the +EV economic value

But couldn’t open the link so can you confirm the study includes analysis of social infrastructure growth, success of integration, employment and wellbeing of existing communities, associated crime % of migrants etc..If it just extracts a single positive variable of dollar bills in isolation then meh.



The FT let’s me read one article a day I think, it’s sad you can’t access it because it covers a lot that might help you.

This is pretty comprehensive too
http://theconversation.com/what-eu-migration-has-done-for-the-uk-103461

There is a link to the full report there too.


Yo I read that but think it’s a red herring regarding social infrastructure and thus quality of life

It’s not enough to say EU migrants pay more in tax than they cost say the NHS

It’s about how much of their tax was used to invest in and grow the NHS to keep pace

If the answer is zero then quality of life for everyone goes down

As an example we have seen big cuts in police throughout a period of large net increase in migration, less housing, longer wait for GP and hospital appointments.

If we aren’t investing their positive tax contributions into social services growth I don’t believe continuing uncontrolled immigration solves this problem

You do know that correlation is not the same thing as causation?
All those extra tax pounds were spent in other ways. Paying Carillion and Interserve loads of money to do jobs badly (or not at all) for one example. Pushing on with the ludicrous HS2 vanity train set for another.
All of your examples of how our ‘quality of life’ has fallen can be payed at the door of government. A Tory government at that. Or you could just say that it’s all down to the greedy bankers that caused the financial meltdown.

If you consider the global and national problems over the past 12 years then maybe all them EU nationals coming over here and paying their damned taxes have meant that we have had a softer ride than we might have done. In economic and QoL terms.



Yes agree we can blame government and other folk. Yet that still doesn't solve the problem.

Point me to a government who invested more in services than population growth ever please.

If government simply doesn't and never has kept pace with improving services in line with growing demand I don't see how no control over the only element of population growth we can actually control helps those without a home to live in.
 
Thanks again to Doobs for breaking down the ethnicity of medical staff but it's really the declining quantity of doctors per head of population that seems more relevant to the point I'm making 
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« Reply #17004 on: March 29, 2019, 04:58:40 PM »

So within minutes of the Withdrawal Agreement being voted down, the word in the lobbies is that, guess what, Theresa May is looking to bring back her deal for a vote next week.

https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1111654741011021824


Of course Mr. Speaker didn’t allow a Labour backbench amendment  ( accepted by the Govt) so that it had a much better chance of going through.
I hope no one thinks he is trying to frustrate this process of trying to move on in a reasonable and orderly way.
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« Reply #17005 on: March 29, 2019, 05:23:15 PM »

So within minutes of the Withdrawal Agreement being voted down, the word in the lobbies is that, guess what, Theresa May is looking to bring back her deal for a vote next week.

https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1111654741011021824


Of course Mr. Speaker didn’t allow a Labour backbench amendment  ( accepted by the Govt) so that it had a much better chance of going through.
I hope no one thinks he is trying to frustrate this process of trying to move on in a reasonable and orderly way.

Well he did let them bring it back in the first place, which was an unnecessary concession to May's vanity.

As for the amendment, it might at best have brought a few Labour people over, like Nandy, from big Leave constituencies.  However, the deal was dead once the DUP declared against it, along with the ERG members with enough self-respect to not change their vote on a basis of a promised leadership election.

I sincerely hope Mr Speaker now holds firm at any attempt to bring it back for a 4th time to suffer the same fate again.
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« Reply #17006 on: March 29, 2019, 05:28:08 PM »

We can't seem to leave and at the moment were pissing everyone in the country off.

Why not stay and just piss half the people off?
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« Reply #17007 on: March 29, 2019, 06:54:27 PM »

So within minutes of the Withdrawal Agreement being voted down, the word in the lobbies is that, guess what, Theresa May is looking to bring back her deal for a vote next week.

https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1111654741011021824


Of course Mr. Speaker didn’t allow a Labour backbench amendment  ( accepted by the Govt) so that it had a much better chance of going through.
I hope no one thinks he is trying to frustrate this process of trying to move on in a reasonable and orderly way.

Well he did let them bring it back in the first place, which was an unnecessary concession to May's vanity.

As for the amendment, it might at best have brought a few Labour people over, like Nandy, from big Leave constituencies.  However, the deal was dead once the DUP declared against it, along with the ERG members with enough self-respect to not change their vote on a basis of a promised leadership election.

I sincerely hope Mr Speaker now holds firm at any attempt to bring it back for a 4th time to suffer the same fate again.

So lets have a long extension with EU conditions and EU elections ......or a "no deal" if one of the EU 27 can't stand it any more! 

Both Tories and Labour agree with the WA and although not perfect, given where we are, it make sense to accept it so the country can move forward to the next more important phase !




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« Reply #17008 on: March 29, 2019, 07:01:53 PM »

We can't seem to leave and at the moment were pissing everyone in the country off.

Why not stay and just piss half the people off?

Its not half - it's only about 26% and most of them will not be that pissed off. The ones that will be most pissed off are the leavers I identify least with so I won't be digging out a yellow vest.

Anyway, fear not, the minute a longer extension is announced it's over

Lets say we're in 2020 due to the extension and approaching 4 years since the vote - I don't know how to sustain an argument that says there shouldn't be another vote in recognition of 4 years of 'new' electors. It was just about sustainable up to now. Add the fact that leaving, by then, will be so much like remaining and it's basically all over bar the shouting.

The day the long extension is announced I'm gonna take back control, unfollow all politics related shite on twitter, and find something more worthwhile to read about and listen to every day.
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« Reply #17009 on: March 29, 2019, 08:02:59 PM »

So lets have a long extension with EU conditions and EU elections ......or a "no deal" if one of the EU 27 can't stand it any more! 

Both Tories and Labour agree with the WA and although not perfect, given where we are, it make sense to accept it so the country can move forward to the next more important phase !

If Labour agreed with the Withdrawal Agreement surely they'd have supported it today?  Somewhat puzzled as to how you can make this statement, based on the available evidence, as there's been absolutely no indication of this to date.

In UK law, the Withdrawal Agreement has to be agreed simultaneously with the Political Declaration, so today's vote was a farce in the first place and was solely intended to bring about a situation where it's passing locked the UK into a framework where it left under 'a deal' by 22nd May.  Essentially a trap to leave Parliament with no alternative to May's PD in the absence of anything else.  They badged it as trying to buy more time to sort things out, but this was disingenuous as it leads to a single option to exit, not the alternatives available from not agreeing a deal by today.

As someone who voted Leave, I'm perfectly happy with the option of a long extension and will readily partake in the EU elections, as the logical step increasingly appears to be to hold a 2nd referendum (not a General Election for the reasons stated in my post yesterday) as it's the only way to resolve the impasse which is free from the party political game-playing that's now dominating the proceedings in Parliament.  I'd be quite happy if this is some form of confirmatory vote on an agreed deal of some kind or something else which gives a clear choice between a realistically deliverable Leave option and remaining.

If one of the EU members wants to play hardball on not agreeing a longer extension, then we ultimately have to rely on our unilateral right to revoke A50 and start the whole thing again.  Still better than a no deal exit where we get no benefits and still end up paying the £39bn bill to engage in post-exit negotiations that follow.
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