The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[TightEnd]

No view from me but interested.

Do you think the BBC in its coverage and journalism around Brexit (guest lists, editorial etc) is pro-Brexit, pro-Rmeain or balanced?

what is the defining evidence for your view if you think it is pro one way or the other?

[Woodsey]

it is precisely the opposite.

No, you are twisting what you originally asked to suit your agenda, you didn’t ask about how easy it was to deliver Brexit.....the answer to that question is different.

[RickBFA]

My solution :

Give the next leader and Parliament a final chance to finalise a deal.

Warn MP’s that if they don’t vote for the deal it’s a referendum on Remain or No Deal on WTO terms. The middle ground is impossible to secure if the clowns in Westminster can’t see the wood for the trees.

Hopefully that would put enough pressure on the softer Brexit supporters in all parties to vote a deal through.

[TightEnd]

My solution :

Give the next leader and Parliament a final chance to finalise a deal.

Warn MP’s that if they don’t vote for the deal it’s a referendum on Remain or No Deal on WTO terms. The middle ground is impossible to secure if the clowns in Westminster can’t see the wood for the trees.

Hopefully that would put enough pressure on the softer Brexit supporters in all parties to vote a deal through.

you mean the current WA deal thats failed to get through 3 times?

or another deal? what would that other deal exclude or include that May's one didn't? (Boris would say the backstop, but it just doesn't seem feasible the EU would hang Ireland out to dry)

as the EU has disbanded its negotiating team, and there is no new Commission until 1st November, who might the new PM negotiate a deal with to send back to parliament? 

I do think "holding MPs feet to the fire"via "well its a remain or no deal 2nd ref then" is interesting as a last resort, but not sure how we get there.

[RickBFA]

My solution :

Give the next leader and Parliament a final chance to finalise a deal.

Warn MP’s that if they don’t vote for the deal it’s a referendum on Remain or No Deal on WTO terms. The middle ground is impossible to secure if the clowns in Westminster can’t see the wood for the trees.

Hopefully that would put enough pressure on the softer Brexit supporters in all parties to vote a deal through.

you mean the current WA deal thats failed to get through 3 times?

or another deal? what would that other deal exclude or include that May's one didn't? (Boris would say the backstop, but it just doesn't seem feasible the EU would hang Ireland out to dry)

as the EU has disbanded its negotiating team, and there is no new Commission until 1st November, who might the new PM negotiate a deal with to send back to parliament? 

I do think "holding MPs feet to the fire"via "well its a remain or no deal 2nd ref then" is interesting as a last resort, but not sure how we get there.

The EU may be open to some sort of amendments according to Hunt.

You may say he is being wildly optimistic. I’m sure Mrs Merkel would find a way to flex Germany’s muscle and influence if there were genuine tweaks that could help get a deal through and keep the interests of EU/Ireland in tact. They really do need a deal as this is shit timing with Germany on the verge of recession.

The new leader has to be given the opportunity though.

At some point this has to come to an end. The “vote for this deal (even though if similar deals failed before) or its a no deal/remain referendum” option might just get it over the line.

[MANTIS01]

My solution :

Give the next leader and Parliament a final chance to finalise a deal.

Warn MP’s that if they don’t vote for the deal it’s a referendum on Remain or No Deal on WTO terms. The middle ground is impossible to secure if the clowns in Westminster can’t see the wood for the trees.

Hopefully that would put enough pressure on the softer Brexit supporters in all parties to vote a deal through.

you mean the current WA deal thats failed to get through 3 times?

or another deal? what would that other deal exclude or include that May's one didn't? (Boris would say the backstop, but it just doesn't seem feasible the EU would hang Ireland out to dry)

as the EU has disbanded its negotiating team, and there is no new Commission until 1st November, who might the new PM negotiate a deal with to send back to parliament? 

I do think "holding MPs feet to the fire"via "well its a remain or no deal 2nd ref then" is interesting as a last resort, but not sure how we get there.

It’s kinda pointless analysing the landscape or more appropriately the wreckage of poor negotiations. Particularly because the most important variable ie the leader of those negotiations has changed.

Fosho when you have a weak negotiator who can’t bring people together or even agree common ground with the oppo for national interests, or even have a conviction to leave, coupled with a spiteful slime ball attitude from the other side you will have problems. Weakness is continuing to lament those problems and saying there is no way forward. The other side love that kind of fighting talk.

So for eg there’s lol no new commission till nov 1st New leader employs team of shit hot business deal crackers, the best, rhetoric & conviction about being forced to leave with no deal based on not recognising historic agreements from old regimes and nobody available to discuss. Ireland? Well we won’t be implementing a border and nobody available so we’ll just crack on with freedom for Irish folk.

When all the pain rains on Eu peoples who is responsible cos of no new commission available to discuss with our new leader?? Hey presto new commission will be at our service. So why shrug these problems and play victim? Only compounds our weakness.

[kukushkin88]

My solution :

Give the next leader and Parliament a final chance to finalise a deal.

Warn MP’s that if they don’t vote for the deal it’s a referendum on Remain or No Deal on WTO terms. The middle ground is impossible to secure if the clowns in Westminster can’t see the wood for the trees.

Hopefully that would put enough pressure on the softer Brexit supporters in all parties to vote a deal through.

you mean the current WA deal thats failed to get through 3 times?

or another deal? what would that other deal exclude or include that May's one didn't? (Boris would say the backstop, but it just doesn't seem feasible the EU would hang Ireland out to dry)

as the EU has disbanded its negotiating team, and there is no new Commission until 1st November, who might the new PM negotiate a deal with to send back to parliament? 

I do think "holding MPs feet to the fire"via "well its a remain or no deal 2nd ref then" is interesting as a last resort, but not sure how we get there.

It’s kinda pointless analysing the landscape or more appropriately the wreckage of poor negotiations. Particularly because the most important variable ie the leader of those negotiations has changed.

Fosho when you have a weak negotiator who can’t bring people together or even agree common ground with the oppo for national interests, or even have a conviction to leave, coupled with a spiteful slime ball attitude from the other side you will have problems. Weakness is continuing to lament those problems and saying there is no way forward. The other side love that kind of fighting talk.

So for eg there’s lol no new commission till nov 1st New leader employs team of shit hot business deal crackers, the best, rhetoric & conviction about being forced to leave with no deal based on not recognising historic agreements from old regimes and nobody available to discuss. Ireland? Well we won’t be implementing a border and nobody available so we’ll just crack on with freedom for Irish folk.

When all the pain rains on Eu peoples who is responsible cos of no new commission available to discuss with our new leader?? Hey presto new commission will be at our service. So why shrug these problems and play victim? Only compounds our weakness.

It reads like a Trump tweet. The funny thing is, there are people in the Conservative Party whose understanding isn’t much better, those people will soon hold the balance of power.

[Jon MW]

My solution :

Give the next leader and Parliament a final chance to finalise a deal.

Warn MP’s that if they don’t vote for the deal it’s a referendum on Remain or No Deal on WTO terms. The middle ground is impossible to secure if the clowns in Westminster can’t see the wood for the trees.

Hopefully that would put enough pressure on the softer Brexit supporters in all parties to vote a deal through.

you mean the current WA deal thats failed to get through 3 times?

or another deal? what would that other deal exclude or include that May's one didn't? (Boris would say the backstop, but it just doesn't seem feasible the EU would hang Ireland out to dry)

as the EU has disbanded its negotiating team, and there is no new Commission until 1st November, who might the new PM negotiate a deal with to send back to parliament? 

I do think "holding MPs feet to the fire"via "well its a remain or no deal 2nd ref then" is interesting as a last resort, but not sure how we get there.

It’s kinda pointless analysing the landscape or more appropriately the wreckage of poor negotiations. Particularly because the most important variable ie the leader of those negotiations has changed.

Fosho when you have a weak negotiator who can’t bring people together or even agree common ground with the oppo for national interests, or even have a conviction to leave, coupled with a spiteful slime ball attitude from the other side you will have problems. Weakness is continuing to lament those problems and saying there is no way forward. The other side love that kind of fighting talk.

So for eg there’s lol no new commission till nov 1st New leader employs team of shit hot business deal crackers, the best, rhetoric & conviction about being forced to leave with no deal based on not recognising historic agreements from old regimes and nobody available to discuss. Ireland? Well we won’t be implementing a border and nobody available so we’ll just crack on with freedom for Irish folk.

When all the pain rains on Eu peoples who is responsible cos of no new commission available to discuss with our new leader?? Hey presto new commission will be at our service. So why shrug these problems and play victim? Only compounds our weakness.

It reads like a Trump tweet. The funny thing is, there are people in the Conservative Party whose understanding isn’t much better, those people will soon hold the balance of power.

I wouldn't be quite that harsh - it's slightly more coherent than Trump.

But the central plank of, "...Particularly because the most important variable ie the leader of those negotiations has changed..." is extremely questionable.

If both sides have about equal weight then sure, how good the negotiators are makes the difference. But in this sort of situation where the other side are in a much stronger position, then nothing much will change it.

The only difference that personnel could make is if we had someone super likeable - then we might have had a chance of getting extra flexibility as a result of them just liking our team. Can't see many people in Parliament that could really fit that bill at the moment let alone anyone who is likely to end up being in a position to do anything about it.

[kukushkin88]

Fair point, I guess I meant it was Trump like in terms of having no grasp/understanding of the situation. No doubt Mantis has more talent for creative writing than The Donald.

[MANTIS01]

My rudimentary understanding is that we need to find a way forward.

Which of these statements contributes something constructive...

a) use change of leadership as leverage, employ negotiation experts, have conviction in outcomes

b) talk to who? There isn’t a new commission until Nov 1st.

c) it reads like a Trump tweet

People are free to judge who’s the most tuned in and who’d they’d prefer in the negotiating room

[kukushkin88]

My rudimentary understanding is that we need to find a way forward.

Which of these statements contributes something constructive...

a) use change of leadership as leverage, employ negotiation experts, have conviction in outcomes

b) talk to who? There isn’t a new commission until Nov 1st.

c) it reads like a Trump tweet

People are free to judge who’s the most tuned in and who’d they’d prefer in the negotiating room

It would be the best TV ever if they did another Storyville with Guy Verhofstadt and Boris and Mantis arrived as the negotiators.

[MANTIS01]

I don’t think you would make much progress as the negotiator kuku 

As Jon MW pointed out being likeable is important

[Woodsey]

This is the 3rd lead in a row for the Brexit Party

The big question for the next Conservative leader, in many ways THE question, is how to get a 24% vote down below 5% ...

Brexit Party 24% (-2)
Cons 21% (+4)
Labour 21% (+2)
Lib Dem 19% (-3)

YouGov (change Jun 10)

Are you watching the Tory leadership debate Richard?  

[kukushkin88]

This is the 3rd lead in a row for the Brexit Party

The big question for the next Conservative leader, in many ways THE question, is how to get a 24% vote down below 5% ...

Brexit Party 24% (-2)
Cons 21% (+4)
Labour 21% (+2)
Lib Dem 19% (-3)

YouGov (change Jun 10)

Are you watching the Tory leadership debate Richard?  

So, the whole purpose of the question was to highlight that only delivering Brexit can resolve their problem, yet it is undeliverable. Having not understood, it’s not a great spot for you to be feeling smug.

Also, thinking that Conservative MP’s agreeing with you lends your point credibility 😂

[Woodsey]

This is the 3rd lead in a row for the Brexit Party

The big question for the next Conservative leader, in many ways THE question, is how to get a 24% vote down below 5% ...

Brexit Party 24% (-2)
Cons 21% (+4)
Labour 21% (+2)
Lib Dem 19% (-3)

YouGov (change Jun 10)

Are you watching the Tory leadership debate Richard?  

So, the whole purpose of the question was to highlight that only delivering Brexit can resolve their problem, yet it is undeliverable. Having not understood, it’s not a great spot for you to be feeling smug.

Also, thinking that Conservative MP’s agreeing with you lends your point credibility 😂

Then he should have asked his true intended question first up, not a different one with an ulterior motive. And yes one of these cons MP’s will be next PM so there is more credibility than the clown you would like in number 10