The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[BigAdz]

I am not sure what you are hoping for? Even longer words from Tighty and more one sided editorials?

The story has pretty much gone as far as it can until a new PM is in place, and we are all just going over old ground, it won't "move forward" until we get something new to work with.

Until that time we are just shooting the breeze, being civil and getting along......oh, until you came back......

It might be nice for you to all sit around reinforcing and compounding your own and each other’s misconceptions and misunderstandings. That doesn’t mean it’s a good idea though. If people reading think it’s credible, that’s a problem.

I’m only talking about the obvious 4 here, I enjoy everyone else’s contributions. Although it would be nice to talk Brexit with Nirvana some time. Feels like my former favourite poster has been somewhat led astray by the whole business.

Add Drama Queen to the list of things I don't like about you now.......

[kukushkin88]

I am not sure what you are hoping for? Even longer words from Tighty and more one sided editorials?

The story has pretty much gone as far as it can until a new PM is in place, and we are all just going over old ground, it won't "move forward" until we get something new to work with.

Until that time we are just shooting the breeze, being civil and getting along......oh, until you came back......

It might be nice for you to all sit around reinforcing and compounding your own and each other’s misconceptions and misunderstandings. That doesn’t mean it’s a good idea though. If people reading think it’s credible, that’s a problem.

I’m only talking about the obvious 4 here, I enjoy everyone else’s contributions. Although it would be nice to talk Brexit with Nirvana some time. Feels like my former favourite poster has been somewhat led astray by the whole business.

Add Drama Queen to the list of things I don't like about you now.......

I’m missing something. Which part is the drama?

[MANTIS01]

Much higher level of debate now kuku has flown back into the nest

[TightEnd]

Even longer words from Tighty and more one sided editorials?

1 long words? I just use normal language.

2 the articles are some of the best journalism going. In some cases award winning. It is why i link to them. I don't think they are one-sided, i regard them as very balanced. They add to the sum of knowledge for readers of the thread on the subject in these very interesting times.

Overwhelmingly opinion of the writers is negative towards Brexit but then it would be when the leave project is based so much off "culture" and "feel" rather than facts 

3 For the 85th time, if you find articles you like (I assume you read widely on the subject) then post them,please

[TightEnd]

Bush on how Johnson might seek to run Downing St. This point is key: any significant reorganisation of government departments is a *massive project* in itself, and the next PM kinda already has one of those to deal with...

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2019/07/could-boris-johnson-run-downing-street-city-hall

not really considered all that much

[MANTIS01]

I think articles that lambast an incoming PM for being optimistic have questionable value

[TightEnd]

the opinion they profess is that there are few grounds for optimism,and realism would be more useful

You, and others, provide the contra-opinion because you believe that optimism will be useful. I think that is of questionable value, especially when its all "feels" with nothing to back it up.

Its all good

[MANTIS01]

If a sense of optimism has no value in challenging situations we need to look at the very fabric of how human beings approach life

Within negotiations I think it can offer enough edge to stimulate some concession that breaks a deadlock

However valid that is I don’t think optimism warrants ridicule. In fact leaders who offer people a sense of hope in hopeless times are usually viewed with deference.

[kukushkin88]

If a sense of optimism has no value in challenging situations we need to look at the very fabric of how human beings approach life

Within negotiations I think it can offer enough edge to stimulate some concession that breaks a deadlock

However valid that is I don’t think optimism warrants ridicule. In fact leaders who offer people a sense of hope in hopeless times are usually viewed with deference.

It’s all about this context though. Optimistically driving off a cliff unnecessarily is viewed dimly by many.

If we feel we have to drive over the cliff, I’m kinda pleased Boris will be at the wheel.

[MANTIS01]

Hmm but viewing the situation as driving off a cliff is pessimistic.

If the wizards think pessimism offers more value than optimism it might be best sticking to emotionless numbers.

The reason it’s not suicide is because the EU is currently weighing up concessions it could offer the UK to avoid a chaotic Brexit nobody wants. There are discussions ongoing over a package of measures that would make it more palatable in the UK so the new PM has a chance of getting it ratified in parliament.

Having not learned a lesson from undermining our position for 3yrs the wizardy gloomy Remain camp think Boris should be acting all defeated in the press and crying during EU negotiations.

[TightEnd]

OK

Last night in the Sun debate both potential PMs were harder line than even Raab was previously. I thought it was therefore interesting as i didn't know tactically where saying the following would be beneficial (except for a hard brexit voting tory membership of course)

They said both a unilateral backstop and a time limited backstop (the previous compromises that some wanted to be voted on) were not acceptable and that only a complete removal of the backstop would do, to get an acceptable deal

As one commentary (by a remainer) said today

"When challenged and confronted, they radicalised even further and excluded any possibility of trying to negotiate some way out of the backstop at all. It had to go in its totality"

This is something the EU has always said no to. Sells Ireland down the river etc etc

Taking it to its next stage if it WERE to get through by some chance, and they delete the Irish backstop, the chances of a US trade deal going through Congress esp House are very low indeed because of the Irish lobby ( Nancy Pelosi and the House Democrats will see to that) being so powerful

Which is the big white hope of Boris of course. could be done quickly and off we go.

I must admit to being confused on the strategy.



 

[kukushkin88]

Hmm but viewing the situation as driving off a cliff is pessimistic.

If the wizards think pessimism offers more value than optimism it might be best sticking to emotionless numbers.

The reason it’s not suicide is because the EU is currently weighing up concessions it could offer the UK to avoid a chaotic Brexit nobody wants. There are discussions ongoing over a package of measures that would make it more palatable in the UK so the new PM has a chance of getting it ratified in parliament.

Having not learned a lesson from undermining our position for 3yrs the wizardy gloomy Remain camp think Boris should be acting all defeated in the press and crying during EU negotiations.

It’s a bizarre line that you take. The Europeans don’t need any Brits to tell them how shit our position is. Seems like I’ll have to write again. The cards are completely face up and have been throughout. Both sides have identical information and essentially share all of the same analysis. Given that, I don’t think you can even call it bluffing but it’s certainly madness. Try and think of something that we know that they don’t that can be used to our advantage?

[TightEnd]

Hmm but viewing the situation as driving off a cliff is pessimistic.

If the wizards think pessimism offers more value than optimism it might be best sticking to emotionless numbers.

The reason it’s not suicide is because the EU is currently weighing up concessions it could offer the UK to avoid a chaotic Brexit nobody wants. There are discussions ongoing over a package of measures that would make it more palatable in the UK so the new PM has a chance of getting it ratified in parliament.

Having not learned a lesson from undermining our position for 3yrs the wizardy gloomy Remain camp think Boris should be acting all defeated in the press and crying during EU negotiations.

It’s a bizarre line that you take. The Europeans don’t need any Brits to tell them how shit our position is. Seems like I’ll have to write again. The cards are completely face up and have been throughout. Both sides have identical information and essentially share all of the same analysis. Given that, I don’t think you can even call it bluffing but it’s certainly madness. Try and think of something that we know that they don’t that can be used to our advantage?

It is almost as if in attempting his bluffer's game theory Boris doesn't think the EU can listen to his hustings comments?

So when he says "we have to be seen to be serious about no deal, but we want to avoid it" it has no impact within the EU27 whatsoever?

[arbboy]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/16/boris-johnson-mayor-damaging-camden-council

This is a good read and something that really worries me as a tory voter myself.   I just think Hunt is far more suitable for high office than Boris but i think this era of swimming against tradition (ie Trump) is so in vogue that he is still going to sweep into power.  I don't really get how why so many tory members want Boris over Hunt.     It just shows how out of touch the vast majority of the tory membership is.

[MANTIS01]

Hmm but viewing the situation as driving off a cliff is pessimistic.

If the wizards think pessimism offers more value than optimism it might be best sticking to emotionless numbers.

The reason it’s not suicide is because the EU is currently weighing up concessions it could offer the UK to avoid a chaotic Brexit nobody wants. There are discussions ongoing over a package of measures that would make it more palatable in the UK so the new PM has a chance of getting it ratified in parliament.

Having not learned a lesson from undermining our position for 3yrs the wizardy gloomy Remain camp think Boris should be acting all defeated in the press and crying during EU negotiations.

It’s a bizarre line that you take. The Europeans don’t need any Brits to tell them how shit our position is. Seems like I’ll have to write again. The cards are completely face up and have been throughout. Both sides have identical information and essentially share all of the same analysis. Given that, I don’t think you can even call it bluffing but it’s certainly madness. Try and think of something that we know that they don’t that can be used to our advantage?

Being positive about the contribution our membership brings and the value we add just isn’t “bizarre”

In order for us to have zero leverage in advancing negotiations you must conclude our membership has no value, it’s worthless, and the EU won’t concede a modicum more ground to get it over the line. That is frankly bizarre mate.

When Boris gets offered a slightly better deal (which he will) I’m going to return to this post. For now pls wonder why the EU have been so very patient, keep agreeing to extensions, have amended the original deal, keep negotiating? The cards are face up? They only needed to throw us one deal and sit back until we came running then! This debate is about negotiating kuku, not politics and you are a little out of your depth fella.