The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Doobs]

Opinium poll for Observer finds as many Remain voters (33%) now plan to vote for the LDs as for Labour. In April the proportion planning to vote LAB was nearer 50%, with only around 10% saying they would choose the LDs

Meanwhile an overnight poll has Con 37% Lab 22% 15 point lead!

I didn’t think Corbyn could get any worse but he really is a total shambles.

Totally bizarre.

It really is bizarre, these momentum idiots supporting Corbyn are completely clueless.

As a Tory even I can see how they might already be in power or at worst be in opposition with a decent lead in the polls.

Chukka Umunna (or someone similar with credibility and centre middle) as leader and support remain as a party, job done!

Suspect there is a pretty good reason the Liberal Democrat MP, Chuka Umanna, might not get the job.

[Pokerpops]

As a Leave-voting old idiot I find myself increasingly troubled by the idea that we can somehow be now in a position where we accept a deal with the EU which preserves the Customs Union, ties our hands on trade negotiations outside of the EU and gives us no meaningful influence on future decisions.
It seems clear that a No Deal exit can't be made acceptable enough to get past Parliament. In any event, given our geographic position we are dependent on specific EU countries for the flow of goods both into and out of the country. The way ahead is paved with the need for cooperation with our neighbours.

Which leads me to consider a substantial volte face. Could I be persuaded that the answer is to do the one thing that we, as a nation, can do without asking for anyone's permission?
Revoke Article 50 and say, "OK, we're in. But there are going to be some changes round here because we've got 17.4mm people who want to leave and they have good, thought through, sensible objections to the way things are. They don't want to be part of a federalist institution. Nor one that has a Commissioner for Protecting the European Way of Life."

Now, I loathe the EU as a whole. The structure, the inefficiencies, the over reach of it's appointed so-called leaders. But maybe, just maybe, it's time to accept that we lost this battle, but we can still win the war by securing change.


NB - I am not yet at the stage where I would vote LD in a GE. Nor am I quite at the voting leave in a new referendum. But if someone were to persuade me that there could be change within the EU that led to a full review of the long term aims and with a chance of reducing it's reach and tendency to wastefulness then maybe...

[Woodsey]

Opinium poll for Observer finds as many Remain voters (33%) now plan to vote for the LDs as for Labour. In April the proportion planning to vote LAB was nearer 50%, with only around 10% saying they would choose the LDs

Meanwhile an overnight poll has Con 37% Lab 22% 15 point lead!

I didn’t think Corbyn could get any worse but he really is a total shambles.

Totally bizarre.

It really is bizarre, these momentum idiots supporting Corbyn are completely clueless.

As a Tory even I can see how they might already be in power or at worst be in opposition with a decent lead in the polls.

Chukka Umunna (or someone similar with credibility and centre middle) as leader and support remain as a party, job done!

Suspect there is a pretty good reason the Liberal Democrat MP, Chuka Umanna, might not get the job.

Of course he won’t now.... 

[RED-DOG]

An interesting day for me, saw several people I hadn't seen for a while and all remainers.

After a chat all had said, they don't want to leave, but if we had a second ref, would defo vote leave as they are far more in favour of us remaining democratic.

I was staggered, but some faith in human nature restored....if only until i read here again.

It's funny you should say that Adz, because several brexiteer friends of mine have said something similar.

As a Leave-voting old idiot I find myself increasingly troubled by the idea that we can somehow be now in a position where we accept a deal with the EU which preserves the Customs Union, ties our hands on trade negotiations outside of the EU and gives us no meaningful influence on future decisions.
It seems clear that a No Deal exit can't be made acceptable enough to get past Parliament. In any event, given our geographic position we are dependent on specific EU countries for the flow of goods both into and out of the country. The way ahead is paved with the need for cooperation with our neighbours.

Which leads me to consider a substantial volte face. Could I be persuaded that the answer is to do the one thing that we, as a nation, can do without asking for anyone's permission?
Revoke Article 50 and say, "OK, we're in. But there are going to be some changes round here because we've got 17.4mm people who want to leave and they have good, thought through, sensible objections to the way things are. They don't want to be part of a federalist institution. Nor one that has a Commissioner for Protecting the European Way of Life."

Now, I loathe the EU as a whole. The structure, the inefficiencies, the over reach of it's appointed so-called leaders. But maybe, just maybe, it's time to accept that we lost this battle, but we can still win the war by securing change.


NB - I am not yet at the stage where I would vote LD in a GE. Nor am I quite at the voting leave in a new referendum. But if someone were to persuade me that there could be change within the EU that led to a full review of the long term aims and with a chance of reducing it's reach and tendency to wastefulness then maybe...

[nirvana]

As a Leave-voting old idiot I find myself increasingly troubled by the idea that we can somehow be now in a position where we accept a deal with the EU which preserves the Customs Union, ties our hands on trade negotiations outside of the EU and gives us no meaningful influence on future decisions.
It seems clear that a No Deal exit can't be made acceptable enough to get past Parliament. In any event, given our geographic position we are dependent on specific EU countries for the flow of goods both into and out of the country. The way ahead is paved with the need for cooperation with our neighbours.

Which leads me to consider a substantial volte face. Could I be persuaded that the answer is to do the one thing that we, as a nation, can do without asking for anyone's permission?
Revoke Article 50 and say, "OK, we're in. But there are going to be some changes round here because we've got 17.4mm people who want to leave and they have good, thought through, sensible objections to the way things are. They don't want to be part of a federalist institution. Nor one that has a Commissioner for Protecting the European Way of Life."

Now, I loathe the EU as a whole. The structure, the inefficiencies, the over reach of it's appointed so-called leaders. But maybe, just maybe, it's time to accept that we lost this battle, but we can still win the war by securing change.


NB - I am not yet at the stage where I would vote LD in a GE. Nor am I quite at the voting leave in a new referendum. But if someone were to persuade me that there could be change within the EU that led to a full review of the long term aims and with a chance of reducing it's reach and tendency to wastefulness then maybe...

If it helps, the only absolute certainty is that the EU will not change path - ever closer union, more administration, greater reach, enlargement, continued protectionism are nailed on - the only question is whether one thinks these things are wholly negative or things one can comfortably live with

[BigAdz]

As a Leave-voting old idiot I find myself increasingly troubled by the idea that we can somehow be now in a position where we accept a deal with the EU which preserves the Customs Union, ties our hands on trade negotiations outside of the EU and gives us no meaningful influence on future decisions.
It seems clear that a No Deal exit can't be made acceptable enough to get past Parliament. In any event, given our geographic position we are dependent on specific EU countries for the flow of goods both into and out of the country. The way ahead is paved with the need for cooperation with our neighbours.

Which leads me to consider a substantial volte face. Could I be persuaded that the answer is to do the one thing that we, as a nation, can do without asking for anyone's permission?
Revoke Article 50 and say, "OK, we're in. But there are going to be some changes round here because we've got 17.4mm people who want to leave and they have good, thought through, sensible objections to the way things are. They don't want to be part of a federalist institution. Nor one that has a Commissioner for Protecting the European Way of Life."

Now, I loathe the EU as a whole. The structure, the inefficiencies, the over reach of it's appointed so-called leaders. But maybe, just maybe, it's time to accept that we lost this battle, but we can still win the war by securing change.


NB - I am not yet at the stage where I would vote LD in a GE. Nor am I quite at the voting leave in a new referendum. But if someone were to persuade me that there could be change within the EU that led to a full review of the long term aims and with a chance of reducing it's reach and tendency to wastefulness then maybe...

If it helps, the only absolute certainty is that the EU will not change path - ever closer union, more administration, greater reach, enlargement, continued protectionism are nailed on - the only question is whether one thinks these things are wholly negative or things one can comfortably live with

It's incredible anyone is willing to accept this.

What exactly does it mean?

Out, but really, still in and with less authority for the privilege of saying we are out in name only?

Got to be a right idiot, even as a remainer , to give that the green light.

[Pokerpops]

I failed to proofread my post which should of read
“I am not yet at the point of voting remain in a second referendum “

If Nirvana is right in his analysis then the day I switch my vote feels a lot further away.

[Jon MW]

As a Leave-voting old idiot I find myself increasingly troubled by the idea that we can somehow be now in a position where we accept a deal with the EU which preserves the Customs Union, ties our hands on trade negotiations outside of the EU and gives us no meaningful influence on future decisions.
It seems clear that a No Deal exit can't be made acceptable enough to get past Parliament. In any event, given our geographic position we are dependent on specific EU countries for the flow of goods both into and out of the country. The way ahead is paved with the need for cooperation with our neighbours.

Which leads me to consider a substantial volte face. Could I be persuaded that the answer is to do the one thing that we, as a nation, can do without asking for anyone's permission?
Revoke Article 50 and say, "OK, we're in. But there are going to be some changes round here because we've got 17.4mm people who want to leave and they have good, thought through, sensible objections to the way things are. They don't want to be part of a federalist institution. Nor one that has a Commissioner for Protecting the European Way of Life."

Now, I loathe the EU as a whole. The structure, the inefficiencies, the over reach of it's appointed so-called leaders. But maybe, just maybe, it's time to accept that we lost this battle, but we can still win the war by securing change.


NB - I am not yet at the stage where I would vote LD in a GE. Nor am I quite at the voting leave in a new referendum. But if someone were to persuade me that there could be change within the EU that led to a full review of the long term aims and with a chance of reducing it's reach and tendency to wastefulness then maybe...

If it helps, the only absolute certainty is that the EU will not change path - ever closer union, more administration, greater reach, enlargement, continued protectionism are nailed on - the only question is whether one thinks these things are wholly negative or things one can comfortably live with

I think part of the problem is that their should always have been a '2-speed Europe'; one for those who want to work towards the federalist idea and another one which just wants a trade bloc. It was always presented as a terrible, terrible thing though by all sides and I could never completely understand why.

[Woodsey]

And these idiots wonder why they can’t win an election?

‘Labour party members have voted to commit the party to integrate private schools into the state sector.

The motion calls for funds and properties held by private schools to be "redistributed democratically and fairly" to other schools’

[nirvana]

And these idiots wonder why they can’t win an election?

‘Labour party members have voted to commit the party to integrate private schools into the state sector.

The motion calls for funds and properties held by private schools to be "redistributed democratically and fairly" to other schools’

I was gonna post this because much as I'm a just a working class, comprehensive attending wanna be left wing ish kinda person, t just seems an outlandish policy.

[StuartHopkin]

The sober reality of Brexit once again showing it’s head as Thomas Cook look like going under, with Brexit being a major factor in it. 9,000 jobs going, 150,000 abroad and set to have a major impact on leisure industry.

Perhaps a little karma for some of those abroad who voted to leave, they can now see what their vote is doing.

This is a truly disgusting post.

Ruining families holidays is okay because its a  'little karma'

Brexit is really a tiny factor in this situation so I don't think anyone deserves to be stranded abroad or have to explain to their kids why they arent going on holiday whether they voted leave or remain.

Shame on you.

[Jon MW]

And these idiots wonder why they can’t win an election?

‘Labour party members have voted to commit the party to integrate private schools into the state sector.

The motion calls for funds and properties held by private schools to be "redistributed democratically and fairly" to other schools’

I was gonna post this because much as I'm a just a working class, comprehensive attending wanna be left wing ish kinda person, t just seems an outlandish policy.

They also have a part which says that before then universities will only be able to admit the same proportion of private school pupils as the proportion of private school pupils there are all together.

While this would make an interesting redistribution of highly educated pupils into some of the worse universities it seems to have a bit of a flaw.

The proportion of private school pupils is about 7% but the proportion of university applicants from private schools is much higher (double maybe?). In other words if they put this policy in it would result in straight A pupils not being allowed to join any UK university because the university wouldn't be full but wouldn't be allowed to admit any more private school pupils.

It would be nice if education policy (from all sides) concentrated more on improving education rather than any other factor.

[Pokerpops]

The sober reality of Brexit once again showing it’s head as Thomas Cook look like going under, with Brexit being a major factor in it. 9,000 jobs going, 150,000 abroad and set to have a major impact on leisure industry.

Perhaps a little karma for some of those abroad who voted to leave, they can now see what their vote is doing.

This is a truly disgusting post.

Ruining families holidays is okay because its a  'little karma'

Brexit is really a tiny factor in this situation so I don't think anyone deserves to be stranded abroad or have to explain to their kids why they arent going on holiday whether they voted leave or remain.

Shame on you.

Stuart is 100% right. You've sunk to a new low here Aaron.
Thomas Cook's business plan was flawed, an average profit of around £11 per head didn't support the debt they took on. As is increasingly the case, bad businessmen looking for an excuse seize on the one that can't be their fault.

[doubleup]

The sober reality of Brexit once again showing it’s head as Thomas Cook look like going under, with Brexit being a major factor in it. 9,000 jobs going, 150,000 abroad and set to have a major impact on leisure industry.

Perhaps a little karma for some of those abroad who voted to leave, they can now see what their vote is doing.

This is a truly disgusting post.

Ruining families holidays is okay because its a  'little karma'

Brexit is really a tiny factor in this situation so I don't think anyone deserves to be stranded abroad or have to explain to their kids why they arent going on holiday whether they voted leave or remain.

Shame on you.

Here are some people who wanted TC to fail so that they made money.  That is disgusting.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-23/thomas-cook-collapse-sets-up-250-million-hedge-fund-windfall?srnd=premium-europe

[Doobs]

The sober reality of Brexit once again showing it’s head as Thomas Cook look like going under, with Brexit being a major factor in it. 9,000 jobs going, 150,000 abroad and set to have a major impact on leisure industry.

Perhaps a little karma for some of those abroad who voted to leave, they can now see what their vote is doing.

This is a truly disgusting post.

Ruining families holidays is okay because its a  'little karma'

Brexit is really a tiny factor in this situation so I don't think anyone deserves to be stranded abroad or have to explain to their kids why they arent going on holiday whether they voted leave or remain.

Shame on you.

Here are some people who wanted TC to fail so that they made money.  That is disgusting.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-23/thomas-cook-collapse-sets-up-250-million-hedge-fund-windfall?srnd=premium-europe

There was far more money on the other side trying to make money from Thomas Cook surviving, so I am not sure why they just look at the winners from the failure.  Thomas Cook has been a basket case for years and it appears to be the unsustainable debt pile that is at fault here.  I have much bigger reservations of hedge funds and the like who set up these huge debt burdens on companies in the first place.

Found myself scratching my head at this one.  


“You don’t have to be a mathematical genius to know it would have been cheaper and more cost-effective to save what is a cornerstone of the British high street,” said Manuel Cortes, the general secretary of the Transport Salaried Staffs’ Association.  

I can see that in the short term it will have been cheaper to let it go bust, the rest is way more complex than Manuel Cortes thinks.  Your investment isn't limited to £250m as the future still looked uncertain for this firm.  If you invest, surely you still lose many/all of the high street stores thus costing many of these jobs anyway? - Presumably there is still work for the planes, pilots and flightcrew as people will still go to these places, and I think there was a willing buyer for the airline bit?  What shareholding does the taxpayer get?  I could sometimes see the benefit of Nationalising a company/industry in full, but taking a minority shareholding in a failing business with little control over its direction, that doesn't seem to have much upside.

It is possible that rescuing them was the cheaper option.  I strongly suspect that untangling all that; making sure the staff are saved and the taxpayer isn't shafted; genuinely does need the work of a mathematical genius.  

Hold the front page, Rebecaa Long-Bailey is on the case.

Rebecca Long-Bailey, the shadow business secretary, described the government’s position as “reckless” and said it should have stepped in to take an equity stake.

Oh sorry, false alarm, she thinks it is reckless to NOT spunk £250m in this way.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/sep/23/row-breaks-out-government-refusal-rescue-thomas-cook