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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2180853 times)
nirvana
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« Reply #21735 on: October 25, 2019, 09:39:13 AM »

All of this is just Lakhoffian framing.

Johnson’s big pledge was ‘do or die, out by 31st’ (presumably he’d choose to die in a ditch)..and he has failed miserably.

By almost any standard you’d care to think of, he’s the worst PM ever.

This bickering over the timing of the election just serves to re-frame and distract.

All he had to do was act like an adult when he won on second reading but lost on the programme motion and resolved that WAB will take a few more weeks to pass and get on with it. But because Parliament, given time for the proper scrutiny might exercise a bit of sovereignty and make amendments which may not be totally helpful to Johnson winning a majority at the next election (even though a WAB would, in some form, have been passed) he’s decided to withdrawal the bill and threatens to go on strike.

Well fine, go on strike then you child. The absence of a PM is likely to be more effective than your Premiership, you abject failure.


I feel so inadequate when I have to look up what things mean.

In the forlorn hope I'm not the only one, here you go;


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lakoff

I knew that
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« Reply #21736 on: October 25, 2019, 10:42:02 AM »

All of this is just Lakhoffian framing.

Johnson’s big pledge was ‘do or die, out by 31st’ (presumably he’d choose to die in a ditch)..and he has failed miserably.

By almost any standard you’d care to think of, he’s the worst PM ever.

This bickering over the timing of the election just serves to re-frame and distract.

All he had to do was act like an adult when he won on second reading but lost on the programme motion and resolved that WAB will take a few more weeks to pass and get on with it. But because Parliament, given time for the proper scrutiny might exercise a bit of sovereignty and make amendments which may not be totally helpful to Johnson winning a majority at the next election (even though a WAB would, in some form, have been passed) he’s decided to withdrawal the bill and threatens to go on strike.

Well fine, go on strike then you child. The absence of a PM is likely to be more effective than your Premiership, you abject failure.


I feel so inadequate when I have to look up what things mean.

In the forlorn hope I'm not the only one, here you go;


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lakoff


I love looking up what things mean.

True story.
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« Reply #21737 on: October 25, 2019, 10:45:36 AM »

the wapo had an interesting take yesterday

Brexit disintegrates when exposed to reality.

This is the whole reason for the impasse and why nothing can ever seem to progress.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/10/23/boris-johnson-is-discovering-that-brexit-only-works-when-its-fantasy/?
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« Reply #21738 on: October 25, 2019, 10:46:18 AM »

the latest flow chart

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« Reply #21739 on: October 25, 2019, 10:54:19 AM »

Shouldn't we just move along the old flowchart or are these flowcharts just not accurate?  It looks like someone just gave up on the right hand side of this one; guess we've all been there with Brexit at times.
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« Reply #21740 on: October 25, 2019, 11:47:12 AM »

All of this is just Lakhoffian framing.

Johnson’s big pledge was ‘do or die, out by 31st’ (presumably he’d choose to die in a ditch)..and he has failed miserably.

By almost any standard you’d care to think of, he’s the worst PM ever.

This bickering over the timing of the election just serves to re-frame and distract.

All he had to do was act like an adult when he won on second reading but lost on the programme motion and resolved that WAB will take a few more weeks to pass and get on with it. But because Parliament, given time for the proper scrutiny might exercise a bit of sovereignty and make amendments which may not be totally helpful to Johnson winning a majority at the next election (even though a WAB would, in some form, have been passed) he’s decided to withdrawal the bill and threatens to go on strike.

Well fine, go on strike then you child. The absence of a PM is likely to be more effective than your Premiership, you abject failure.

Failure? He’s made it to prime minister.....hardly a failure. What have you achieved in life other than being good at whining on the Internet?

You've ignored the points made and turned it into a personal attack.

Having got the bill through second reading what do you think of his decision to not proceed with the legislation?

Do you think not getting your way 100% in a minority government and threatening to go on strike rather than seek compromise is a responsible course of action?

No I didn’t the only point I was interested in addressing was that he called him a failure. Honestly it’s a joke, maybe anyone who calls someone a failure who is clearly more successful than them should maybe hold the mirror up to themselves before making such a daft comment. Boris might well be many things but he is certainly far from a failure.
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« Reply #21741 on: October 25, 2019, 11:59:37 AM »

If the Tories do decide to put the government 'on strike' then there seems to be a huge amount of political capital for the opposition to exploit if they work together effectively.

For one, the Tories have just insisted on prorogation of Parliament to bring in a new Queen's speech which they argued was to deliver their domestic agenda and unrelated to Brexit, which we all knew was bullshit, but it happened anyway.  The Parliamentary arithmetic is no different now to when they did this, so by not attempting to move any of this legislation forward they'll be exposing themselves further to their own lies.  I'd be inclined, as an opposition MP, to hold their feet to the fire on this for as long as possible.

If the government effectively refuse to bring any meaningful business forward, then the opposition should use the opportunity to take over the order paper whenever it could.  They could do this for both Brexit related issues, or for progressing other issues specifically to highlight Tory policy weaknesses (e.g. some sort of NHS related debate/bill).  Doing so would either force the government to bring meaningful business in place of this happening, or keep them occupied in preventing whatever business is brought forward being moved forward.  Ideally, they should work on some sort of bill to commit to a 2nd Referendum taking place ahead of any GE and cut off BoJo's intended way out.

Presumably, this would also free up BoJo's time enough for him to turn up to the Parliamentary committee meeting he's cancelled 3 times already, given that he's no longer 'too busy delivering Brexit'.

If they are smart about this, the opposition parties working together could use the government's tactic to their advantage.  Chances are they won't do so, as they're too mired in their own internal politics, but they really need to highlight the Queen's Speech fallacy at the very least.
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« Reply #21742 on: October 25, 2019, 12:18:43 PM »

Peston

It’s done. Labour has instructed its MPs tonight to block @BorisJohnson’s attempt on Monday to have 12 Dec election. So @BorisJohnson will shelve the Withdrawal Agreement Bill. He will cancel the budget. There will be no government worth the name. Parliament will become...a zombie Parliament, unless and until the opposition find a way to wrest control from @BorisJohnson or hold an election. This deadlock is without modern precedent.

A Tory government on strike will do less damage to the country than a Tory government in full flow.  I can feel my standard of living improving already.

Looney Leftie in full swing, ignoring all the evidence of the last 3 years because of some inherited political bias.lol
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« Reply #21743 on: October 25, 2019, 12:33:21 PM »

Peston

It’s done. Labour has instructed its MPs tonight to block @BorisJohnson’s attempt on Monday to have 12 Dec election. So @BorisJohnson will shelve the Withdrawal Agreement Bill. He will cancel the budget. There will be no government worth the name. Parliament will become...a zombie Parliament, unless and until the opposition find a way to wrest control from @BorisJohnson or hold an election. This deadlock is without modern precedent.

A Tory government on strike will do less damage to the country than a Tory government in full flow.  I can feel my standard of living improving already.

Looney Leftie in full swing, ignoring all the evidence of the last 3 years because of some inherited political bias.lol

Yes, if you go back through the thread you'll see just how big a fan of Labour I've been throughout all this.
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« Reply #21744 on: October 25, 2019, 12:49:42 PM »

All of this is just Lakhoffian framing.

Johnson’s big pledge was ‘do or die, out by 31st’ (presumably he’d choose to die in a ditch)..and he has failed miserably.

By almost any standard you’d care to think of, he’s the worst PM ever.

This bickering over the timing of the election just serves to re-frame and distract.

All he had to do was act like an adult when he won on second reading but lost on the programme motion and resolved that WAB will take a few more weeks to pass and get on with it. But because Parliament, given time for the proper scrutiny might exercise a bit of sovereignty and make amendments which may not be totally helpful to Johnson winning a majority at the next election (even though a WAB would, in some form, have been passed) he’s decided to withdrawal the bill and threatens to go on strike.

Well fine, go on strike then you child. The absence of a PM is likely to be more effective than your Premiership, you abject failure.

Failure? He’s made it to prime minister.....hardly a failure. What have you achieved in life other than being good at whining on the Internet?

You've ignored the points made and turned it into a personal attack.

Having got the bill through second reading what do you think of his decision to not proceed with the legislation?

Do you think not getting your way 100% in a minority government and threatening to go on strike rather than seek compromise is a responsible course of action?

There isn't a compromise though is there? Anything that gets put on the table is just rejected as a matter of course.

I'd be amazed if half of them even bother to read the things now as they know what they're expected to vote regardless of whether they agree with it or not.

This goes for the 'yes' voters as well by the way, they're just as bad.

I wasn't this cynical until I saw a graphical representation of yes/no votes. It was basically all the yes's were blue and all the no's were red. Clearly they're just voting with their party rather than with their brains.

The whole thing's pathetic.
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« Reply #21745 on: October 25, 2019, 12:50:24 PM »


Everyone seems to be waiting for someone else to blink first.


Brexit: EU agrees to Brexit delay, but no date yet




https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50175914


So that buggers up Boris's plan for the vote on Monday, as he first wanted to see how long the extension would be.
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« Reply #21746 on: October 25, 2019, 12:50:34 PM »

If the Tories do decide to put the government 'on strike' then there seems to be a huge amount of political capital for the opposition to exploit if they work together effectively.

For one, the Tories have just insisted on prorogation of Parliament to bring in a new Queen's speech which they argued was to deliver their domestic agenda and unrelated to Brexit, which we all knew was bullshit, but it happened anyway.  The Parliamentary arithmetic is no different now to when they did this, so by not attempting to move any of this legislation forward they'll be exposing themselves further to their own lies.  I'd be inclined, as an opposition MP, to hold their feet to the fire on this for as long as possible.

If the government effectively refuse to bring any meaningful business forward, then the opposition should use the opportunity to take over the order paper whenever it could.  They could do this for both Brexit related issues, or for progressing other issues specifically to highlight Tory policy weaknesses (e.g. some sort of NHS related debate/bill).  Doing so would either force the government to bring meaningful business in place of this happening, or keep them occupied in preventing whatever business is brought forward being moved forward.  Ideally, they should work on some sort of bill to commit to a 2nd Referendum taking place ahead of any GE and cut off BoJo's intended way out.

Presumably, this would also free up BoJo's time enough for him to turn up to the Parliamentary committee meeting he's cancelled 3 times already, given that he's no longer 'too busy delivering Brexit'.

If they are smart about this, the opposition parties working together could use the government's tactic to their advantage.  Chances are they won't do so, as they're too mired in their own internal politics, but they really need to highlight the Queen's Speech fallacy at the very least.

would love to see this, but I agree particularly with the bold bit.
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« Reply #21747 on: October 25, 2019, 01:27:01 PM »

Another excellent analysis

Brexit in limbo.

latest Brexit Blog post on the week's developments including discussion of the WAB votes, the WAB itself, tactical issues around a General Election, and thoughts on 'taking back control'.

https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2019/10/brexit-in-limbo.html
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« Reply #21748 on: October 25, 2019, 02:13:05 PM »

All of this is just Lakhoffian framing.

Johnson’s big pledge was ‘do or die, out by 31st’ (presumably he’d choose to die in a ditch)..and he has failed miserably.

By almost any standard you’d care to think of, he’s the worst PM ever.

This bickering over the timing of the election just serves to re-frame and distract.

All he had to do was act like an adult when he won on second reading but lost on the programme motion and resolved that WAB will take a few more weeks to pass and get on with it. But because Parliament, given time for the proper scrutiny might exercise a bit of sovereignty and make amendments which may not be totally helpful to Johnson winning a majority at the next election (even though a WAB would, in some form, have been passed) he’s decided to withdrawal the bill and threatens to go on strike.

Well fine, go on strike then you child. The absence of a PM is likely to be more effective than your Premiership, you abject failure.

Failure? He’s made it to prime minister.....hardly a failure. What have you achieved in life other than being good at whining on the Internet?

You've ignored the points made and turned it into a personal attack.

Having got the bill through second reading what do you think of his decision to not proceed with the legislation?

Do you think not getting your way 100% in a minority government and threatening to go on strike rather than seek compromise is a responsible course of action?

There isn't a compromise though is there? Anything that gets put on the table is just rejected as a matter of course.

I'd be amazed if half of them even bother to read the things now as they know what they're expected to vote regardless of whether they agree with it or not.

This goes for the 'yes' voters as well by the way, they're just as bad.

I wasn't this cynical until I saw a graphical representation of yes/no votes. It was basically all the yes's were blue and all the no's were red. Clearly they're just voting with their party rather than with their brains.

The whole thing's pathetic.


That's how party voting works though. It's like when people look at an MPs voting record. Generally it will just be just what the whip said to do rather than their personal opinion.

The compromise is to negotiate a deal with single market, customs union, potentially 2nd referendum, etc. Do that and there's a chance it goes through. The tories at no point in the process have attempted to do this. May's red lines prevented anything happening. And Johnson has no interest in any of this instead trying to paint a picture of it's parliaments fault for not agreeing with his policy.
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« Reply #21749 on: October 25, 2019, 03:30:47 PM »

All of this is just Lakhoffian framing.

Johnson’s big pledge was ‘do or die, out by 31st’ (presumably he’d choose to die in a ditch)..and he has failed miserably.

By almost any standard you’d care to think of, he’s the worst PM ever.

This bickering over the timing of the election just serves to re-frame and distract.

All he had to do was act like an adult when he won on second reading but lost on the programme motion and resolved that WAB will take a few more weeks to pass and get on with it. But because Parliament, given time for the proper scrutiny might exercise a bit of sovereignty and make amendments which may not be totally helpful to Johnson winning a majority at the next election (even though a WAB would, in some form, have been passed) he’s decided to withdrawal the bill and threatens to go on strike.

Well fine, go on strike then you child. The absence of a PM is likely to be more effective than your Premiership, you abject failure.

Failure? He’s made it to prime minister.....hardly a failure. What have you achieved in life other than being good at whining on the Internet?

You've ignored the points made and turned it into a personal attack.

Having got the bill through second reading what do you think of his decision to not proceed with the legislation?

Do you think not getting your way 100% in a minority government and threatening to go on strike rather than seek compromise is a responsible course of action?

There isn't a compromise though is there? Anything that gets put on the table is just rejected as a matter of course.

I'd be amazed if half of them even bother to read the things now as they know what they're expected to vote regardless of whether they agree with it or not.

This goes for the 'yes' voters as well by the way, they're just as bad.

I wasn't this cynical until I saw a graphical representation of yes/no votes. It was basically all the yes's were blue and all the no's were red. Clearly they're just voting with their party rather than with their brains.

The whole thing's pathetic.


That's how party voting works though. It's like when people look at an MPs voting record. Generally it will just be just what the whip said to do rather than their personal opinion.

The compromise is to negotiate a deal with single market, customs union, potentially 2nd referendum, etc. Do that and there's a chance it goes through. The tories at no point in the process have attempted to do this. May's red lines prevented anything happening. And Johnson has no interest in any of this instead trying to paint a picture of it's parliaments fault for not agreeing with his policy.

Isn't a GE a compromise?

Everyone in the country would know that they were really voting on brexit and to hell with other policies so it's effectively another referendum but this time leading to the result getting implemented (assuming a majority either way of course).

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