The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[ripple11]

Come on President Macron......15th Nov.

Vive la France

[Sheriff Fatman]

Isn't a GE a compromise?

Everyone in the country would know that they were really voting on brexit and to hell with other policies so it's effectively another referendum but this time leading to the result getting implemented (assuming a majority either way of course).

It's the clumsiest method available to deliver any sort of mandate on Brexit, with the added disadvantage of having a government for the next 5 years made up of whatever drops out of it.

Imagine you're a Tory member who wants to remain in the EU, or a Lib Dem member who wants to leave.  What if you're in a key marginal seat and you're desperately trying to keep someone in it, or vote someone out of it, based on their party politics, but who's Brexit policy isn't aligned with yours.  How do you express a political opinion and a Brexit opinion in a single vote?

Far more likely is the fact that you're in a safe seat of whatever colour, where anyone voting for another party for whatever reason will have no notable vote whatsoever, thanks to FPTP.  It's something we've all got used to in a general election scenario, but not when that election is also being used as the de facto referendum on Brexit policy.  If your safe seat is held by a Tory, and you're a remain supporter, why should you not get a say on Brexit, which is what a GE effectively does to that voter?

Worst of all, which is a situation I found myself in 2010, is if you're in the constituency which the (new) speaker represents.  You won't get a meaningful vote at all, either for the party you choose (or are a paid up a member of) or for the Brexit policy you prefer, because everyone else will stand aside to allow the speaker to be elected as 'Speaker'.

Why should everyone be forced to compromise in a general election between voting they way they wish on party political lines or trying to express an opinion on Brexit, especially when most of those opinions will count for nothing because the seat isn't a marginal one so the outcome of it will already be pre-determined?

[nirvana]

Isn't a GE a compromise?

Everyone in the country would know that they were really voting on brexit and to hell with other policies so it's effectively another referendum but this time leading to the result getting implemented (assuming a majority either way of course).

It's the clumsiest method available to deliver any sort of mandate on Brexit, with the added disadvantage of having a government for the next 5 years made up of whatever drops out of it.

Imagine you're a Tory member who wants to remain in the EU, or a Lib Dem member who wants to leave.  What if you're in a key marginal seat and you're desperately trying to keep someone in it, or vote someone out of it, based on their party politics, but who's Brexit policy isn't aligned with yours.  How do you express a political opinion and a Brexit opinion in a single vote?

Far more likely is the fact that you're in a safe seat of whatever colour, where anyone voting for another party for whatever reason will have no notable vote whatsoever, thanks to FPTP.  It's something we've all got used to in a general election scenario, but not when that election is also being used as the de facto referendum on Brexit policy.  If your safe seat is held by a Tory, and you're a remain supporter, why should you not get a say on Brexit, which is what a GE effectively does to that voter?

Worst of all, which is a situation I found myself in 2010, is if you're in the constituency which the (new) speaker represents.  You won't get a meaningful vote at all, either for the party you choose (or are a paid up a member of) or for the Brexit policy you prefer, because everyone else will stand aside to allow the speaker to be elected as 'Speaker'.

Why should everyone be forced to compromise in a general election between voting they way they wish on party political lines or trying to express an opinion on Brexit, especially when most of those opinions will count for nothing because the seat isn't a marginal one so the outcome of it will already be pre-determined?

It's a decent argument this but I think the its a decent view to hold that we held our once in a generation vote to leave or stay so people already gave their opinion. In my admittedly narrow view, I don't really care whether remain oriented people get to make a meaningful vote in a marginal about their preference for leave, remain or second referendum or a non meaningful vote in a Tory safe seat. The decision to leave has already been made.

Seems to me it's reasonable to be able to exercise a choice based on a range of issues including how the party will approach leaving the EU as per the referendum result. I'd be fine if LDs and Lab stood on a pledge to enact the softest of Brexits and give punters a choice between ultra soft Brexit and no deal or pretty hard Brexit under the Tories. But if they choose to stand on a platform that doesn't include implementing the referendum result, the biggest issue of the day, then a default Tory win on the back of Brexit seems OK to me.

[neeko]

I wonder how many pictures of empty ditches will be on Twitter on the 31st Oct with a comment of “just checking” or similar.

[tikay]

I wonder how many pictures of empty ditches will be on Twitter on the 31st Oct with a comment of “just checking” or similar.

It's already started.


https://twitter.com/Brendan77894830/status/1187694320553517056

Click to see full-size image.

[EvilPie]

Isn't a GE a compromise?

Everyone in the country would know that they were really voting on brexit and to hell with other policies so it's effectively another referendum but this time leading to the result getting implemented (assuming a majority either way of course).

It's the clumsiest method available to deliver any sort of mandate on Brexit, with the added disadvantage of having a government for the next 5 years made up of whatever drops out of it.

Imagine you're a Tory member who wants to remain in the EU, or a Lib Dem member who wants to leave.  What if you're in a key marginal seat and you're desperately trying to keep someone in it, or vote someone out of it, based on their party politics, but who's Brexit policy isn't aligned with yours.  How do you express a political opinion and a Brexit opinion in a single vote?

Far more likely is the fact that you're in a safe seat of whatever colour, where anyone voting for another party for whatever reason will have no notable vote whatsoever, thanks to FPTP.  It's something we've all got used to in a general election scenario, but not when that election is also being used as the de facto referendum on Brexit policy.  If your safe seat is held by a Tory, and you're a remain supporter, why should you not get a say on Brexit, which is what a GE effectively does to that voter?

Worst of all, which is a situation I found myself in 2010, is if you're in the constituency which the (new) speaker represents.  You won't get a meaningful vote at all, either for the party you choose (or are a paid up a member of) or for the Brexit policy you prefer, because everyone else will stand aside to allow the speaker to be elected as 'Speaker'.

Why should everyone be forced to compromise in a general election between voting they way they wish on party political lines or trying to express an opinion on Brexit, especially when most of those opinions will count for nothing because the seat isn't a marginal one so the outcome of it will already be pre-determined?

Unfortunately for the next decade or so not many people are going to get exactly what they want.

Half the country are going to be p**sed off because of leave/remain. Half are going to be p**sed off because of tory/labour+lib.

At least a quarter are going to be doubly p**sed off

A quarter will have a decade of gloating

That's just how it is. Suck it up sunshine.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Isn't a GE a compromise?

Everyone in the country would know that they were really voting on brexit and to hell with other policies so it's effectively another referendum but this time leading to the result getting implemented (assuming a majority either way of course).

It's the clumsiest method available to deliver any sort of mandate on Brexit, with the added disadvantage of having a government for the next 5 years made up of whatever drops out of it.

Imagine you're a Tory member who wants to remain in the EU, or a Lib Dem member who wants to leave.  What if you're in a key marginal seat and you're desperately trying to keep someone in it, or vote someone out of it, based on their party politics, but who's Brexit policy isn't aligned with yours.  How do you express a political opinion and a Brexit opinion in a single vote?

Far more likely is the fact that you're in a safe seat of whatever colour, where anyone voting for another party for whatever reason will have no notable vote whatsoever, thanks to FPTP.  It's something we've all got used to in a general election scenario, but not when that election is also being used as the de facto referendum on Brexit policy.  If your safe seat is held by a Tory, and you're a remain supporter, why should you not get a say on Brexit, which is what a GE effectively does to that voter?

Worst of all, which is a situation I found myself in 2010, is if you're in the constituency which the (new) speaker represents.  You won't get a meaningful vote at all, either for the party you choose (or are a paid up a member of) or for the Brexit policy you prefer, because everyone else will stand aside to allow the speaker to be elected as 'Speaker'.

Why should everyone be forced to compromise in a general election between voting they way they wish on party political lines or trying to express an opinion on Brexit, especially when most of those opinions will count for nothing because the seat isn't a marginal one so the outcome of it will already be pre-determined?

Unfortunately for the next decade or so not many people are going to get exactly what they want.

Half the country are going to be p**sed off because of leave/remain. Half are going to be p**sed off because of tory/labour+lib.

At least a quarter are going to be doubly p**sed off

A quarter will have a decade of gloating

That's just how it is. Suck it up sunshine.

That's a swift progression from 'isn't GE a compromise?'

[TightEnd]

The New Yorker gets stuck in

"Boris Johnson is “genuinely a bad person,” a former close colleague of his said. “Not an unlikable person but a bad person, as in he has no morals, no principles and beliefs.” "

How Brexit will end....

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/11/04/how-brexit-will-end

[ripple11]

Click to see full-size image.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1187673908020948993

[aaron1867]

Looks like this election might happen if there is compromise for the LD amendment.

[Woodsey]

‘The question for Labour: why are you sticking with Jeremy Corbyn?’

Unbelievable isn’t it? Every tory supporter wants him there because he is so ineffective. Please keep him......

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/25/labour-jeremy-corbyn-party-leader-brexit-boris-johnson

[ripple11]

‘The question for Labour: why are you sticking with Jeremy Corbyn?’

Unbelievable isn’t it? Every tory supporter wants him there because he is so ineffective. Please keep him......

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/25/labour-jeremy-corbyn-party-leader-brexit-boris-johnson

Labour cant avoid an election within the next few months....so can't see how it isn't Corbyn. As you say, perfect for Boris.

 Then he goes and presumably its a toss up between Starmer and Long Bailey. Starmer the safest choice, but Labour desperately want a women.

[TightEnd]

1) Tories far ahead on polls but Brits think Brexit ref was a mistake.

 Hence 2) people consider Corbyn a bigger danger than Brexit.

Hence 3) people have not yet understood how bad Brexit really will be. Bad enough to be even more dangerous than Corbyn, we might argue. Or might not.:-)

[Sheriff Fatman]

Labour cant avoid an election within the next few months....so can't see how it isn't Corbyn. As you say, perfect for Boris.

Then he goes and presumably its a toss up between Starmer and Long Bailey. Starmer the safest choice, but Labour desperately want a women.

Losing Corbyn won't necessarily improve matters for Labour in the short-term as the Trot entryism is now deep-rooted into the CLP's and NEC, so we'll end up with Corbyn v2 - same policies, fewer terrorist links.

The cult seem to favour either Rebecca Wrong-Daily or the awful Laura Pidcock as their choices.

I doubt any of the mainstream likely candidate, including Starmer, will get through the voting process to be elected leader.  I hope I'm wrong, but I think little will actually change within Labour in the short-term.  The 'project' will continue.

[tikay]

I believe the Parliamentary vote on the suggested General Election is at 5pm today.

How do we think that will go, will Boris get it through or will he face another defeat?

And in either case, what happens then as to Brexit?