The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[RickBFA]

One thing that really annoys me is the constant message from the left wing about morality and political views.

There seems to be an aggressively communicated message that the left wing hold the moral high ground and all Tories are heartless, selfish scum.

I get that opinion from a friend of mine who happens to manipulate his "income" to earn £10-12,000 each year, paying fuck all in taxes and still enjoys 3 or 4 lovely holidays each year. Obviously holds the moral high ground as a Labour supporter.

I always smile when I see certain high profile gamblers with prominent left wing views supporting Corbyn tax and spend policies as gospel when they pay fuck all themselves on gambling winnings. Maybe they make a donation of 30% of their income to charities and their local hospital eh?

Ha. That last para is my pet hobby horse. You don't pay income tax then I'm really not interested in your opinion on how it should be spent.

how do you both know what they may or may not contribute via charitable giving, altruism, philanthropy, voluntary work etc etc?

They may do Tighty. I wonder how many pay 30% of income to good causes ?

It wouldn’t annoy me as much if they didn’t think all Tories are scum. What did that Welsh university lecturer ultra left wing chap say this week? All Tories are lower than vermin (words to that effect). It’s completely outrageous bollocks.

[Doobs]

One thing that really annoys me is the constant message from the left wing about morality and political views.

There seems to be an aggressively communicated message that the left wing hold the moral high ground and all Tories are heartless, selfish scum.

I get that opinion from a friend of mine who happens to manipulate his "income" to earn £10-12,000 each year, paying fuck all in taxes and still enjoys 3 or 4 lovely holidays each year. Obviously holds the moral high ground as a Labour supporter.

I always smile when I see certain high profile gamblers with prominent left wing views supporting Corbyn tax and spend policies as gospel when they pay fuck all themselves on gambling winnings. Maybe they make a donation of 30% of their income to charities and their local hospital eh?

Ha. That last para is my pet hobby horse. You don't pay income tax then I'm really not interested in your opinion on how it should be spent.

how do you both know what they may or may not contribute via charitable giving, altruism, philanthropy, voluntary work etc etc?

They may do Tighty. I wonder how many pay 30% of income to good causes ?

It wouldn’t annoy me as much if they didn’t think all Tories are scum. What did that Welsh university lecturer ultra left wing chap say this week? All Tories are lower than vermin (words to that effect). It’s completely outrageous bollocks.

Isn't a Welsh University lecturer a taxpayer?  I have no idea when this happened, but isn't this just the same as Aaron does? There is likely to be more than one left wing tax dodger who does think Tories are vermin (I don't think it will be hard to find one who thinks the same of Blairites and Lib Dems too); a right winger killed an MP and more than one Muslim was a suicide bomber, more than one Christian was a war monger and so on. 

These people do not reflect the general population of tax dodging left wingers, right wingers, muslims, christians etc. 

[nirvana]

Lots of reasons people don't pay tax Glen.

Yes, I totally get that. I even socialise with degenerate professional gamblers who don't pay tax and fair play if anyone can get by living by their wits and skills and without being part of the mainstream. I'd just prefer them to not proselytise to me about what my tax dollar should be spent on and how much more I might pay so they can enjoy the services they get for free.

What if their motives are more altruistic than enjoying free services?

I don't think expressing political views can count as altruism tbf. Especially when your day job is relieving other less capable punters, many of whom might be considered poor, of their money.

"The spirit of community will be revived as we succeed in devising ways to reinvolve people in solving the perplexing problems they see about them, not just in talking about them, and certainly not in petitioning government to solve them."

–Richard Cornuelle

[RickBFA]

One thing that really annoys me is the constant message from the left wing about morality and political views.

There seems to be an aggressively communicated message that the left wing hold the moral high ground and all Tories are heartless, selfish scum.

I get that opinion from a friend of mine who happens to manipulate his "income" to earn £10-12,000 each year, paying fuck all in taxes and still enjoys 3 or 4 lovely holidays each year. Obviously holds the moral high ground as a Labour supporter.

I always smile when I see certain high profile gamblers with prominent left wing views supporting Corbyn tax and spend policies as gospel when they pay fuck all themselves on gambling winnings. Maybe they make a donation of 30% of their income to charities and their local hospital eh?

Ha. That last para is my pet hobby horse. You don't pay income tax then I'm really not interested in your opinion on how it should be spent.

how do you both know what they may or may not contribute via charitable giving, altruism, philanthropy, voluntary work etc etc?

They may do Tighty. I wonder how many pay 30% of income to good causes ?

It wouldn’t annoy me as much if they didn’t think all Tories are scum. What did that Welsh university lecturer ultra left wing chap say this week? All Tories are lower than vermin (words to that effect). It’s completely outrageous bollocks.

Isn't a Welsh University lecturer a taxpayer?  I have no idea when this happened, but isn't this just the same as Aaron does? There is likely to be more than one left wing tax dodger who does think Tories are vermin (I don't think it will be hard to find one who thinks the same of Blairites and Lib Dems too); a right winger killed an MP and more than one Muslim was a suicide bomber, more than one Christian was a war monger and so on. 

These people do not reflect the general population of tax dodging left wingers, right wingers, muslims, christians etc. 

The Welsh lecturer was my clumsy attempt to give a recent example of the left wings view of Tories. He was actually trying to quote Bevan (his political hero who held a similar view).

Yes he will be a tax payer.

The bottom line is that there is a widely held view amongst the left wing that they occupy the moral high ground. The old we’ll spend more and therefore we care more line.

There are plenty of tax dodging right wingers by the way. The difference is they don’t try to occupy some idealistic world where they have the monopoly on caring and compassion.

[RickBFA]

https://mobile.twitter.com/darrenplymouth/status/1206616120733716481?s=12&fbclid=IwAR0mNvDPrL__ESWCG2SBq5hR7SaQEejAz75XdEW0T7MFIUHyKO4K63LHkzU


Childish but I couldn’t help chuckling.

[mulhuzz]

One thing that really annoys me is the constant message from the left wing about morality and political views.

There seems to be an aggressively communicated message that the left wing hold the moral high ground and all Tories are heartless, selfish scum.

I get that opinion from a friend of mine who happens to manipulate his "income" to earn £10-12,000 each year, paying fuck all in taxes and still enjoys 3 or 4 lovely holidays each year. Obviously holds the moral high ground as a Labour supporter.

I always smile when I see certain high profile gamblers with prominent left wing views supporting Corbyn tax and spend policies as gospel when they pay fuck all themselves on gambling winnings. Maybe they make a donation of 30% of their income to charities and their local hospital eh?

Ha. That last para is my pet hobby horse. You don't pay income tax then I'm really not interested in your opinion on how it should be spent.

does that apply to the low-waged as well?

I nearly made that qualifier but on my phone so kept it short. Doesn't apply and I'd love to see a lot more done to support low waged people. There are so many people for whom scraping a living is properly hard work and in many workplaces I would get that the employer can't necessarily boost wages in a material way. Would love to see those people supported much more rather than potentially flinging out universal entitlements to people who don't need it. This to me was the biggest hole in the Labour manifesto

Good qualifier. My caveat is that it is *often* cheaper (and this, more efficient) to give something to everyone than to means-test it. So sometimes when you want something spent on the poorest, you have to be content with millionaires receiving the same benefit.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Blair's spoke so much sense this morning regarding the issues facing Labour.  It will be ignored by those controlling the party, obviously, but it doesn't make it any less accurate.

The football analogy was particularly enjoyable, at around 41:05 in the video.

"Messrs Johnson and Cummings had a strategy for victory, and we had one for defeat. And I noted the cockiness of the Johnson visit to Sedgefield to rub salt in the wound! But I would like to see their strategic brilliance measured against a team other than one whose striker was directionally oblivious, its midfield comatose, the defence absent in the stand chatting to a small portion of the fans and its goalkeeper behind the net retweeting a clip of his one save in a 9-0 thrashing."

https://www.pscp.tv/w/1nAKEZZzOdZGL

[4KSuited]

There were quite a few on here that pointed out that Labour were unelectable with Corbyn in charge. Labour’s surprisingly strong performance in 2017 was more to do with May’s disastrous election campaign strategy (& her own awkward, insipid performance) than with Corbyn/Labour. In fact it turns out, with that wonderful benefit of hindsight, that the 2017 ‘recovery’ has done more damage to Labour than good.

What must be very frightening for Labour’s natural support, is the possibility that the Momentum element of the party retain control, and that the party end up with another far left leader. Equally bad would be a Starmer/Thornberry, who come across as Champagne socialists. Interesting times ahead.

[Sheriff Fatman]

One thing that really annoys me is the constant message from the left wing about morality and political views.

There seems to be an aggressively communicated message that the left wing hold the moral high ground and all Tories are heartless, selfish scum.

It wouldn’t annoy me as much if they didn’t think all Tories are scum. What did that Welsh university lecturer ultra left wing chap say this week? All Tories are lower than vermin (words to that effect). It’s completely outrageous bollocks.

I actually agree with this which, given my views on the Tory party, some people might find surprising.

It's the Tory party itself, and certain MP's within it who personify the worst elements of it, that I can't stand.  Trying to project this further onto those who choose to vote for them is a non-starter strategy, but a message that has been rampant within the Corbyn-led Labour Party for the last few years.  Thankfully, Laura "could never be friends with a Tory" Pidcock was one of the election casualties, but the view still persists.

I learned to separate the two from my experiences at university, where I was surrounded by people from far more privileged backgrounds than myself, many of whom had upbringings which would lead them to always naturally support the Tories, in the same way that my experiences had led me to always oppose them.  Some of them became lifelong friends, and our own personal politics didn't get in the way of that, beyond a bit of banter from time to time.  Ironically, the more obnoxious ones I encountered were the ones who had set themselves on a career path in politics.  Gavin Barwell was president of the Union Society for one of the terms I was there, and was generally acknowledged to be a tool by most people I knew at the time, so it was no surprise to see him become a Tory MP and then one of Theresa May's advisers after he lost his seat.

The UK, under FPTP, will always give rise to a natural Conservative majority without something specific to make voters choose Labour over them.  That is a fact, and no amount of denial by Labour, or blaming it on the MSM, will change it.  With hindsight, it's astonishing how effective New Labour were in achieving this and, whatever direction Labour chooses to go in future, without the ability to convince enough 'small c Conservatives' to switch their natural allegiance then there's no chance of them being elected.  It's even harder now because they are no longer the natural party of choice in Scotland, where they previously held many seats.

Starting from a point where the underlying message is to hate Tory voters is a fundamental mistake, but that's the image Labour give out at present, particularly via their social media presence from far left activists and the sight of Socialist Worker banners at countless demonstrations, which aligns with many people's perceptions of Corbyn Labour as a student union protest group.

[StuartHopkin]

Good post Sheriff

It's all far too negative

I have actually had people tell me I must hate all the homeless, mentally ill etc because I voted Tory.

[EvilPie]

Good post Sheriff

It's all far too negative

I have actually had people tell me I must hate all the homeless, mentally ill etc because I voted Tory.

Really? I always thought it was just because you're a c**t

[kukushkin88]

Absolutely a good post from the Sheriff.

[StuartHopkin]

Good post Sheriff

It's all far too negative

I have actually had people tell me I must hate all the homeless, mentally ill etc because I voted Tory.

Really? I always thought it was just because you're a c**t

Yes really

I'm a c**t so I vote Tory or I hate the homeless and mentally ill because I'm a c**t?

You will notice there is one part of your statement I'm not arguing with 

[EvilPie]

Good post Sheriff

It's all far too negative

I have actually had people tell me I must hate all the homeless, mentally ill etc because I voted Tory.

Really? I always thought it was just because you're a c**t

Yes really

I'm a c**t so I vote Tory or I hate the homeless and mentally ill because I'm a c**t?

You will notice there is one part of your statement I'm not arguing with 

Excellent point, spoken like a true ****.

Insert either c**t or t**y to suit.

[Pokerpops]

Good post Sheriff

It's all far too negative

I have actually had people tell me I must hate all the homeless, mentally ill etc because I voted Tory.

Really? I always thought it was just because you're a c**t

Yes really

I'm a c**t so I vote Tory or I hate the homeless and mentally ill because I'm a c**t?

You will notice there is one part of your statement I'm not arguing with 

Excellent point, spoken like a true ****.

Insert either c**t or t**y to suit.

We are all of us ****’s at some stage.