The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Jon MW]

I really dont mean to come across as rude but surely that's a little closed minded to say, you'll never change? Its a different party with different policies.

It's more than close-minded.  It's a promise I made to myself in 1992 that, no matter how my life progressed, I would never, ever stoop so low as to vote Conservative and to essentially betray my upbringing.  Nothing that I've seen since has ever come remotely close to changing this view, as each successive Conservative government has just continued to the same fundamental policy of protecting the richest at the expense of the poorest.

The tragedy for me, currently, is that Labour have progressively deteriorated to a point where, for the first time in my lifetime, I couldn't rank them as any better than the Tories in this election campaign.  Even in 2017, I'd have put Corbyn's disaster communism slightly ahead of it.

FWIW, I don't view your comments as rude.  I have no doubt that it's difficult to appreciate the level of hatred I hold for the Tory party unless you grew up in a community that was so deliberately targeted by them.  For most people, politics might be an issue of debate or discussion, without ever having had an existential impact on their local communities.

Have you read John O'Farrell's biographies?

Click to see full-size image.

Click to see full-size image.

I'd recommend them anyway for anyone interested in politics. Definitely the most entertaining political biography - but that's probably helped when it's written by a comedian.

[RickBFA]

One thing that really annoys me is the constant message from the left wing about morality and political views.

There seems to be an aggressively communicated message that the left wing hold the moral high ground and all Tories are heartless, selfish scum.

I get that opinion from a friend of mine who happens to manipulate his "income" to earn £10-12,000 each year, paying fuck all in taxes and still enjoys 3 or 4 lovely holidays each year. Obviously holds the moral high ground as a Labour supporter.

I always smile when I see certain high profile gamblers with prominent left wing views supporting Corbyn tax and spend policies as gospel when they pay fuck all themselves on gambling winnings. Maybe they make a donation of 30% of their income to charities and their local hospital eh?

[nirvana]

One thing that really annoys me is the constant message from the left wing about morality and political views.

There seems to be an aggressively communicated message that the left wing hold the moral high ground and all Tories are heartless, selfish scum.

I get that opinion from a friend of mine who happens to manipulate his "income" to earn £10-12,000 each year, paying fuck all in taxes and still enjoys 3 or 4 lovely holidays each year. Obviously holds the moral high ground as a Labour supporter.

I always smile when I see certain high profile gamblers with prominent left wing views supporting Corbyn tax and spend policies as gospel when they pay fuck all themselves on gambling winnings. Maybe they make a donation of 30% of their income to charities and their local hospital eh?

Ha. That last para is my pet hobby horse. You don't pay income tax then I'm really not interested in your opinion on how it should be spent.

[mulhuzz]

One thing that really annoys me is the constant message from the left wing about morality and political views.

There seems to be an aggressively communicated message that the left wing hold the moral high ground and all Tories are heartless, selfish scum.

I get that opinion from a friend of mine who happens to manipulate his "income" to earn £10-12,000 each year, paying fuck all in taxes and still enjoys 3 or 4 lovely holidays each year. Obviously holds the moral high ground as a Labour supporter.

I always smile when I see certain high profile gamblers with prominent left wing views supporting Corbyn tax and spend policies as gospel when they pay fuck all themselves on gambling winnings. Maybe they make a donation of 30% of their income to charities and their local hospital eh?

Ha. That last para is my pet hobby horse. You don't pay income tax then I'm really not interested in your opinion on how it should be spent.

does that apply to the low-waged as well?

[RED-DOG]

One thing that really annoys me is the constant message from the left wing about morality and political views.

There seems to be an aggressively communicated message that the left wing hold the moral high ground and all Tories are heartless, selfish scum.

I get that opinion from a friend of mine who happens to manipulate his "income" to earn £10-12,000 each year, paying fuck all in taxes and still enjoys 3 or 4 lovely holidays each year. Obviously holds the moral high ground as a Labour supporter.

I always smile when I see certain high profile gamblers with prominent left wing views supporting Corbyn tax and spend policies as gospel when they pay fuck all themselves on gambling winnings. Maybe they make a donation of 30% of their income to charities and their local hospital eh?

Ha. That last para is my pet hobby horse. You don't pay income tax then I'm really not interested in your opinion on how it should be spent.

Just as well most people are not interested in your opinion of their opinion.

[RED-DOG]

Lots of reasons people don't pay tax Glen.

[TightEnd]

One thing that really annoys me is the constant message from the left wing about morality and political views.

There seems to be an aggressively communicated message that the left wing hold the moral high ground and all Tories are heartless, selfish scum.

I get that opinion from a friend of mine who happens to manipulate his "income" to earn £10-12,000 each year, paying fuck all in taxes and still enjoys 3 or 4 lovely holidays each year. Obviously holds the moral high ground as a Labour supporter.

I always smile when I see certain high profile gamblers with prominent left wing views supporting Corbyn tax and spend policies as gospel when they pay fuck all themselves on gambling winnings. Maybe they make a donation of 30% of their income to charities and their local hospital eh?

Ha. That last para is my pet hobby horse. You don't pay income tax then I'm really not interested in your opinion on how it should be spent.

how do you both know what they may or may not contribute via charitable giving, altruism, philanthropy, voluntary work etc etc?

[Sheriff Fatman]

I have to say that I usually find Sheriff's arguments cognisant and persuasive, but this is just robs him if credibility.

What he seems to be suggesting is that if the Tories adopted all the policies he believed in and then kept all their promises for the next decade or two he would still never ever vote for them because of what some other government did in the past.


The Tories have openly persecuted Gypsies for generations (I don't even want to get into the latest abominable proposals) but, at some point in the future, if they have better policies overall than the opposition, I will vote for them.

Sorry Curtis. You know I love you.

I think, on our respective issues, we have generally the same outlook.  Mine simply prices in the zero probability of my particular 'what if' scenario ever being met.

I've not come close to changing my opinion in the 27 years that have followed, based on anything they've done, and the prospects of any signs of positive change don't look good.  I hope that doesn't apply in your case, as their manifesto content was pretty horrific regarding travelling communities.

Loves ya right back, though.  Sorry to disappoint you in this case.

[RED-DOG]

I have to say that I usually find Sheriff's arguments cognisant and persuasive, but this is just robs him if credibility.

What he seems to be suggesting is that if the Tories adopted all the policies he believed in and then kept all their promises for the next decade or two he would still never ever vote for them because of what some other government did in the past.


The Tories have openly persecuted Gypsies for generations (I don't even want to get into the latest abominable proposals) but, at some point in the future, if they have better policies overall than the opposition, I will vote for them.

Sorry Curtis. You know I love you.

I think, on our respective issues, we have generally the same outlook.  Mine simply prices in the zero probability of my particular 'what if' scenario ever being met.

I've not come close to changing my opinion in the 27 years that have followed, based on anything they've done, and the prospects of any signs of positive change don't look good.  I hope that doesn't apply in your case, as their manifesto content was pretty horrific regarding travelling communities.

Loves ya right back, though.  Sorry to disappoint you in this case.

But you misunderstand me, (I think) We're not arguing the probability of them changing into an excellent party here, were saying what if they did?

[nirvana]

One thing that really annoys me is the constant message from the left wing about morality and political views.

There seems to be an aggressively communicated message that the left wing hold the moral high ground and all Tories are heartless, selfish scum.

I get that opinion from a friend of mine who happens to manipulate his "income" to earn £10-12,000 each year, paying fuck all in taxes and still enjoys 3 or 4 lovely holidays each year. Obviously holds the moral high ground as a Labour supporter.

I always smile when I see certain high profile gamblers with prominent left wing views supporting Corbyn tax and spend policies as gospel when they pay fuck all themselves on gambling winnings. Maybe they make a donation of 30% of their income to charities and their local hospital eh?

Ha. That last para is my pet hobby horse. You don't pay income tax then I'm really not interested in your opinion on how it should be spent.

does that apply to the low-waged as well?

I nearly made that qualifier but on my phone so kept it short. Doesn't apply and I'd love to see a lot more done to support low waged people. There are so many people for whom scraping a living is properly hard work and in many workplaces I would get that the employer can't necessarily boost wages in a material way. Would love to see those people supported much more rather than potentially flinging out universal entitlements to people who don't need it. This to me was the biggest hole in the Labour manifesto

[nirvana]

One thing that really annoys me is the constant message from the left wing about morality and political views.

There seems to be an aggressively communicated message that the left wing hold the moral high ground and all Tories are heartless, selfish scum.

I get that opinion from a friend of mine who happens to manipulate his "income" to earn £10-12,000 each year, paying fuck all in taxes and still enjoys 3 or 4 lovely holidays each year. Obviously holds the moral high ground as a Labour supporter.

I always smile when I see certain high profile gamblers with prominent left wing views supporting Corbyn tax and spend policies as gospel when they pay fuck all themselves on gambling winnings. Maybe they make a donation of 30% of their income to charities and their local hospital eh?

Ha. That last para is my pet hobby horse. You don't pay income tax then I'm really not interested in your opinion on how it should be spent.

how do you both know what they may or may not contribute via charitable giving, altruism, philanthropy, voluntary work etc etc?

I don't know but I do know how the left generally view charities and philanthropy so I'd be willing to bet that it's not very much.

[Sheriff Fatman]

But you misunderstand me, (I think) We're not arguing the probability of them changing into an excellent party here, were saying what if they did?

I'll cross that bridge if I ever reach it.  My gut instinct would be that if they'd ever reached that stage, there'd still be other parties out there with the equivalent offer from which I could choose from.

[RED-DOG]

But you misunderstand me, (I think) We're not arguing the probability of them changing into an excellent party here, were saying what if they did?

I'll cross that bridge if I ever reach it.  My gut instinct would be that if they'd ever reached that stage, there'd still be other parties out there with the equivalent offer from which I could choose from.

Good enough. 

[nirvana]

Lots of reasons people don't pay tax Glen.

Yes, I totally get that. I even socialise with degenerate professional gamblers who don't pay tax and fair play if anyone can get by living by their wits and skills and without being part of the mainstream. I'd just prefer them to not proselytise to me about what my tax dollar should be spent on and how much more I might pay so they can enjoy the services they get for free.

[RED-DOG]

Lots of reasons people don't pay tax Glen.

Yes, I totally get that. I even socialise with degenerate professional gamblers who don't pay tax and fair play if anyone can get by living by their wits and skills and without being part of the mainstream. I'd just prefer them to not proselytise to me about what my tax dollar should be spent on and how much more I might pay so they can enjoy the services they get for free.

What if their motives are more altruistic than enjoying free services?