The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[RickBFA]

For example just as I become undecided I hear that Wolfgang Schauble says we wont be allowed single market access if we leave and now I find myself firmly committed to leaving again.

You can't handle the truth

We will be allowed access to this market - the terms might change but access won't be denied will it ?

It's also far from a single market today izzit - it's 28 countries or whatever with various levels of protectionism.

I know a guy on the border of Austria / Germany - south of Garmisch. His business is taking orders from Austrians, placing the orders with online retailers in Germany, accepting delivery and then making the goods available for his Austrian customers to collect. The Austrian consumer saves money, the middle man makes money - is that a single market ?

The single market is about removing tariff and non-tariff barriers in the areas where it has been introduced.  Obviously there are difference in local taxes etc, but they can't be used to favour local products.  cliffs smugglers gonna smuggle    

Should there be a concept of smuggling in a single market or should we change the term to single market with local sales taxes and duties that distort pricing for the average joe ?

Whatever you want to call it, we will be out of it and face tariffs and customs controls if we leave.

The Germans want to appear to play hard ball publicly because they are crapping themselves about the implications for the EU if we leave.

We are the second biggest net contributor after Germany. The EU loses circa 4 billion euros net if we go. That's got to be found elsewhere if the EU are going to support failing economies and try to improve the prosperity of Eastern European countries joining the EU.

I genuinely think that if we go it will create other pressures from other countries. You can only support so many screwed economies like Greece for so long.

They will of course quietly do a trade deal with us because its in their interests given what they export to us.

You do wonder where the EU may end up in say 5 years time if we leave.

No one is doing a deal.  Brexit can't produce one single country to back up their free trade fantasy.  It's odd that people who say what Brexit doesn't want to hear are always lying.

You don't know "No one is doing a deal". 

[doubleup]

The leader of the biggest EU economy has said there won't be a deal.  He said if the UK realised they had made a mistake he would welcome them back in the future, but if they left the Single market, that was it.  It really is time that Brexitists understood what they are voting for.

[nirvana]

For example just as I become undecided I hear that Wolfgang Schauble says we wont be allowed single market access if we leave and now I find myself firmly committed to leaving again.

You can't handle the truth

We will be allowed access to this market - the terms might change but access won't be denied will it ?

It's also far from a single market today izzit - it's 28 countries or whatever with various levels of protectionism.

I know a guy on the border of Austria / Germany - south of Garmisch. His business is taking orders from Austrians, placing the orders with online retailers in Germany, accepting delivery and then making the goods available for his Austrian customers to collect. The Austrian consumer saves money, the middle man makes money - is that a single market ?

The single market is about removing tariff and non-tariff barriers in the areas where it has been introduced.  Obviously there are difference in local taxes etc, but they can't be used to favour local products.  cliffs smugglers gonna smuggle    

Should there be a concept of smuggling in a single market or should we change the term to single market with local sales taxes and duties that distort pricing for the average joe ?

Whatever you want to call it, we will be out of it and face tariffs and customs controls if we leave.

Yes, of course, and this causes me what problem on a personal level ?

[david3103]

The leader of the biggest EU economy has said there won't be a deal.  He said if the UK realised they had made a mistake he would welcome them back in the future, but if they left the Single market, that was it.  It really is time that Brexitists understood what they are voting for.

Which he are you referring to?

As for anyone saying 'there won't be a deal' I refer you to the words of Christine Keeler "They would say that, wouldn't they".

[doubleup]

The leader of the biggest EU economy has said there won't be a deal.  He said if the UK realised they had made a mistake he would welcome them back in the future, but if they left the Single market, that was it.  It really is time that Brexitists understood what they are voting for.

Which he are you referring to?

As for anyone saying 'there won't be a deal' I refer you to the words of Christine Keeler "They would say that, wouldn't they".

alright "A" leader - give yourself a pat on the back for being pedant of week.

and there really isn't any point debating with you if you are simply going to continue with your state of denial.

[doubleup]

For example just as I become undecided I hear that Wolfgang Schauble says we wont be allowed single market access if we leave and now I find myself firmly committed to leaving again.

You can't handle the truth

We will be allowed access to this market - the terms might change but access won't be denied will it ?

It's also far from a single market today izzit - it's 28 countries or whatever with various levels of protectionism.

I know a guy on the border of Austria / Germany - south of Garmisch. His business is taking orders from Austrians, placing the orders with online retailers in Germany, accepting delivery and then making the goods available for his Austrian customers to collect. The Austrian consumer saves money, the middle man makes money - is that a single market ?

The single market is about removing tariff and non-tariff barriers in the areas where it has been introduced.  Obviously there are difference in local taxes etc, but they can't be used to favour local products.  cliffs smugglers gonna smuggle    

Should there be a concept of smuggling in a single market or should we change the term to single market with local sales taxes and duties that distort pricing for the average joe ?

Whatever you want to call it, we will be out of it and face tariffs and customs controls if we leave.

Yes, of course, and this causes me what problem on a personal level ?

I have no idea as I don't know what you do, but I'm fairly sure its going to cause a lot of British businesses problems.

[DungBeetle]

The leader of the biggest EU economy has said there won't be a deal.  He said if the UK realised they had made a mistake he would welcome them back in the future, but if they left the Single market, that was it.  It really is time that Brexitists understood what they are voting for.

Which he are you referring to?

As for anyone saying 'there won't be a deal' I refer you to the words of Christine Keeler "They would say that, wouldn't they".

alright "A" leader - give yourself a pat on the back for being pedant of week.

and there really isn't any point debating with you if you are simply going to continue with your state of denial.

The point remains though.  Germany may or may not want to do "a deal" pressured by their car manufacturers.  Irrespective of that though how can Merkel say anything else right now before a referendum that there will be no deal?  It would be illogical for her to say otherwise as she wants us to stay in.

[david3103]

The leader of the biggest EU economy has said there won't be a deal.  He said if the UK realised they had made a mistake he would welcome them back in the future, but if they left the Single market, that was it.  It really is time that Brexitists understood what they are voting for.

Which he are you referring to?

As for anyone saying 'there won't be a deal' I refer you to the words of Christine Keeler "They would say that, wouldn't they".

alright "A" leader - give yourself a pat on the back for being pedant of week.

and there really isn't any point debating with you if you are simply going to continue with your state of denial.

Hardly pedantry when your post suggests that either you didn't know which is the biggest economy in the EU or you were unaware of who currently leads it.

I'm not in denial, I've given a number of reasons for my view on the matter throughout this thread, I've yet to see anything from you that counters them.

Where do you stand on the ECJ for instance? Or the colossal waste of resources and money within the EU system?
How about the Five Tests of a Democracy?
What is your vision of the continent and the project in 10yrs time if we remain?

I'd be interested to hear your views.

[nirvana]

For example just as I become undecided I hear that Wolfgang Schauble says we wont be allowed single market access if we leave and now I find myself firmly committed to leaving again.

You can't handle the truth

We will be allowed access to this market - the terms might change but access won't be denied will it ?

It's also far from a single market today izzit - it's 28 countries or whatever with various levels of protectionism.

I know a guy on the border of Austria / Germany - south of Garmisch. His business is taking orders from Austrians, placing the orders with online retailers in Germany, accepting delivery and then making the goods available for his Austrian customers to collect. The Austrian consumer saves money, the middle man makes money - is that a single market ?

The single market is about removing tariff and non-tariff barriers in the areas where it has been introduced.  Obviously there are difference in local taxes etc, but they can't be used to favour local products.  cliffs smugglers gonna smuggle    

Should there be a concept of smuggling in a single market or should we change the term to single market with local sales taxes and duties that distort pricing for the average joe ?

Whatever you want to call it, we will be out of it and face tariffs and customs controls if we leave.

Yes, of course, and this causes me what problem on a personal level ?

I have no idea as I don't know what you do, but I'm fairly sure its going to cause a lot of British businesses problems.

By the way, although I'm often prone to it, I'm not trying to be an ass for the hell of it. I work for a FTSE 100 company that would be classified as a technological & diversified industrial with decent exports to Europe, Asia and the Americas. There are trade barriers in China and a lot of Asia but we successfully export to these countries with the highest tariff barriers.

It's quite a big 'if' that there would automatically be tariffs for us to export to Europe in a Brexit world and if there were it might be a couple of points. Most British businesses don't export to Europe and those that successfully do would continue to because there's a compelling reason why they are sourced from now which goes beyond price.

For every good we export you can guarantee that it can be bought cheaper from somewhere else in the world even with barriers to entry. We are not a 'low-cost' economy so people buy from us for design reasons, technology reasons etc - but the one thing we can be sure of is they don't buy on price - so a couple of points on price is not likely to cause any major disruption, even if it happened.

I'd be happy to acknowledge that there may be a few more commodity based companies (though I can't think of any obvious ones) that win on price and these companies may need to cut prices to remain competitive. So, we may lose some jobs in an attempt to be competitive because British companies don't tend to suck up the thought of lower returns to shareholders- they fire people.

Because we are structured to rely heavily on private pensions, I guess it's somewhat important that bigger companies maintain their level of returns to shareholders so the most likely consequences of tariffs are a blip in employment rates..maybe.

It's pretty far from the doomsday scenario and rhetoric of 'turning our back on access to a single market of 500 million people'. No backs are being turned - our market stall is still open and our wallets are still able to fill the pockets of Europe's big consumer businesses.

[Woodsey]

For example just as I become undecided I hear that Wolfgang Schauble says we wont be allowed single market access if we leave and now I find myself firmly committed to leaving again.

You can't handle the truth

We will be allowed access to this market - the terms might change but access won't be denied will it ?

It's also far from a single market today izzit - it's 28 countries or whatever with various levels of protectionism.

I know a guy on the border of Austria / Germany - south of Garmisch. His business is taking orders from Austrians, placing the orders with online retailers in Germany, accepting delivery and then making the goods available for his Austrian customers to collect. The Austrian consumer saves money, the middle man makes money - is that a single market ?

The single market is about removing tariff and non-tariff barriers in the areas where it has been introduced.  Obviously there are difference in local taxes etc, but they can't be used to favour local products.  cliffs smugglers gonna smuggle    

Should there be a concept of smuggling in a single market or should we change the term to single market with local sales taxes and duties that distort pricing for the average joe ?

Whatever you want to call it, we will be out of it and face tariffs and customs controls if we leave.

Yes, of course, and this causes me what problem on a personal level ?

I have no idea as I don't know what you do, but I'm fairly sure its going to cause a lot of British businesses problems.

By the way, although I'm often prone to it, I'm not trying to be an ass for the hell of it. I work for a FTSE 100 company that would be classified as a technological & diversified industrial with decent exports to Europe, Asia and the Americas. There are trade barriers in China and a lot of Asia but we successfully export to these countries with the highest tariff barriers.

It's quite a big 'if' that there would automatically be tariffs for us to export to Europe in a Brexit world and if there were it might be a couple of points. Most British businesses don't export to Europe and those that successfully do would continue to because there's a compelling reason why they are sourced from now which goes beyond price.

For every good we export you can guarantee that it can be bought cheaper from somewhere else in the world even with barriers to entry. We are not a 'low-cost' economy so people buy from us for design reasons, technology reasons etc - but the one thing we can be sure of is they don't buy on price - so a couple of points on price is not likely to cause any major disruption, even if it happened.

I'd be happy to acknowledge that there may be a few more commodity based companies (though I can't think of any obvious ones) that win on price and these companies may need to cut prices to remain competitive. So, we may lose some jobs in an attempt to be competitive because British companies don't tend to suck up the thought of lower returns to shareholders- they fire people.

Because we are structured to rely heavily on private pensions, I guess it's somewhat important that bigger companies maintain their level of returns to shareholders so the most likely consequences of tariffs are a blip in employment rates..maybe.

It's pretty far from the doomsday scenario and rhetoric of 'turning our back on access to a single market of 500 million people'. No backs are being turned - our market stall is still open and our wallets are still able to fill the pockets of Europe's big consumer businesses.

First thread I've ever seen you talk some sense, likely one off lol? 

[neeko]

I have been resolute in my decision to vote OUT from the start but I'm afraid to say William Hague has cast doubt into my mind! Friggin William Hague! Perhaps it's ok to be part of something and not like it at the same time. We have all turned into soothsayers who know exactly how this organic, constantly changing EU is going to shape up in the future. We definitely wont have any influence over the direction it travels by standing outside the room. We chat about immigration but I bet Merkel has refined her welcome mat views after recent events and EU leaders will undoubtedly re-think strategy. Maybe in a few years we will really lol want to join again? Maybe if we had a shit hot PM working on our behalf he/she could really influence the EU in our favour?

The road map of both decisions should have been plotted out for sure but the truth is nobody has a Scooby Do what will happen. Europe could flourish in union over the next 10 years or Europe could fail completely, it's unchartered waters, nobody can really say, it's a matter of impulse. For example just as I become undecided I hear that Wolfgang Schauble says we wont be allowed single market access if we leave and now I find myself firmly committed to leaving again. As the line approaches I'm wavering and confused. Don't know why house prices going down is a bad thing. Is that bad thing? I will consider all things and review all evidence but any more threats from the Germans and that's that I'm afraid!

House prices going down is unequivocally a good thing - in no other area of the economy is inflation considered a positive (slightly simplistic). If politicians really meant the children/grandchildren thing they'd actively seek to ensure house prices are depressed.

House price inflation is our notional compensation for crap wage levels, crap pensions, crap redundancy terms, crap unemployment benefits with an illusion of wealth that most of us never realise. The real gains are made by who - the facilitators (banking), the uber landlords, speculators blah blah blah

Just waiting for the paint to dry on my sandwich board - am frothing today

Inflation is definitely needed in the eurozone. A few years of 5% inflation will rescue their banking system, the nominal level of debts will diminish relative the the new higher levels of wages, and if Germany could have 10% inflation at the same time then the relative competitiveness of Greek industry would improve greatly. This may even fix the Target 2 imbalances that could be catastrophic for Europe if Greece ever left the euro.

[nirvana]

Definite one off woodsey

[MintTrav]

In one of the local Indian takeaways right now.

Zero tables occupied in the restaurant.

Me: "Very quiet tonight."

Asian owner: "Yes, all the restaurants in the street are the same. It's because of the vote. Everyone is worried about their jobs."

[JohnCharver]

In one of the local Indian takeaways right now.

Zero tables occupied in the restaurant.

Me: "Very quiet tonight."

Asian owner: "Yes, all the restaurants in the street are the same. It's because of the vote. Everyone is worried about their jobs."

footballs on bro

[MintTrav]

In one of the local Indian takeaways right now.

Zero tables occupied in the restaurant.

Me: "Very quiet tonight."

Asian owner: "Yes, all the restaurants in the street are the same. It's because of the vote. Everyone is worried about their jobs."

footballs on bro

Yes, I'm sure that's the reason, lol.