The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[arbboy]

The idea that skilled migrants from non EU countries face obstacles whilst non-skilled EU migrants have free movement makes me anxious.

So the present position is that skilled and unskilled workers and career criminals with no intention to work and pay tax can come in from the EU unrestricted and the UK decides whether it wants to let skilled and unskilled workers enter from outside the EU.  

Leaving the single market would presumably mean that the UK could decide whether EU skilled and unskilled workersand career criminals with no intention to work and pay tax  could enter the country.  

What exactly would that change do to "optimise the output of our country and max the GDP."?

FYP

It would probably help to reduce the pressure on the Police in the UK for a start.

Drivel as usual

Seems pretty logical to me.  Why is it drivel?   Less criminals in the country must reduce pressure on the Police budget?  

rofl you amend my post to "all immigrants are criminals" and expect me to discuss it?

When did i do that? 

I just added a separate category of immigrants to the two you stated.

You said there are skilled and unskilled workers looking to arrive in the UK.  I just added the third category of career criminals who have no interest in legit work.  When did i ever state that all immigrants were criminals?   Are you on crack or just can't read?

[DungBeetle]

The one's who arent working and not contributing to society should be sent back to where they came from assuming it's within the EU.  Anyone who is claiming Asylum then they should be dealt with as the system dictates. 

What the fuck is the camp statement about, are you trying to bring a serious post to the equivalent or fascism? 

go and chat with argue boy on some hate forum.  He's the one that brought up the issue.  The only thing you left out was

 I have heard horror stories of 12/13 year old girls being pimped out to moslems

Stop being utterly pathetic and let issues be discussed.  Your reaction to the couple of posts by Arb and PokerBroker is completely laughable.

[DungBeetle]

To be brutally honest Doubleup and MintTrav are about as useful to the remain campaign as Eddie Izzard.  Doubleup squeals of concentration camps if the issue of organised European crime is brought up and Mint thinks his below par local curry house is empty because everyone is staying home cowering at the outcome of the EU referendum.

Get a grip.

[david3103]

Dyson talks nonsense

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/sir-james-dyson-so-if-we-leave-the-eu-no-one-will-trade-with-us/

If, as David Cameron suggested, they imposed a tariff of 10 per cent on us, we will do the same in return. We buy more from Europe than they buy from us, so we would be the net beneficiary and based on these numbers it would bring £10bn into the UK annually.

Yeah right why don't we increase vat to 50% and then we would be the richest country in the world.  The purchaser pays the tariff in the form of higher prices.  (And don't say the producer will absorb it as if they could get a 10% higher price for their goods, they would be charging that now.)



The problem with the EU’s free movement of people is that it doesn’t bring Dyson the brilliant boffins he needs. “We’re not allowed to employ them, unless they’re from the EU. At the moment, if we want to hire a foreign engineer, it takes four and a half months to go through the Home Office procedure. It’s crazy.”

I don't think that is anything to do with the EU, he should take it up with Theresa May.


His views on Brussels have been shaped by bitter experience. Dyson sits on several European committees. “And we’ve never once during 25 years ever got any clause or measure that we wanted into a European directive. Never once have we been able to block the slightest thing.”

Hell hath no fury like an inventor scorned

He says the much-trumpeted single market isn’t really a single market at all. “They have different languages which, for an exporter, means that everything from the box to the instruction manual has to be in a different language. The plugs are different. The laws are different. It’s not a single market.

And how will this change when we leave the EU?


 

Tariffs generate income for the importing country (or create economic activity to replace the imported goods). We are a net importer currently, therefore we ether generate more income or create more growth.
The VAT argument makes no,sense at all.

Maybe the issue of work permits is a distinct matter, although it has to be acknowledged that the fact that we have, effectively, no choice on EU citizens entering the country is putting pressure on the resources we need to support our societal needs and requirements.

It won't, but that actually isn't the point. We keep being told that there is this magical Single Market, Dyson says it's effectively a myth. Not much point in sticking around to benefit from a mythical market eh?



Meanwhile, you seem to have gone very gung ho against Arbboy and PokerBroker but have forgotten to respond to my reasonable request for your genuinely considered views about a few issues. Any chance you can manage that inbetween accusing all and sundry of being racists.

[doubleup]

To be brutally honest Doubleup and MintTrav are about as useful to the remain campaign as Eddie Izzard.  Doubleup squeals of concentration camps if the issue of organised European crime is brought up and Mint thinks his below par local curry house is empty because everyone is staying home cowering at the outcome of the EU referendum.

Get a grip.

I was discussing the issues.  I made a perfectly civil post comparing the present job market with the brexit job market and pointing out that it couldn't possibly "optimise the output of our country and max the GDP."

Argueboy hijacked that post and started rabbiting on about foreign criminals and Kmac-lite jumped in with Albanian child prostitution.

Anyway this thread is pointless so gl

[arbboy]

To be brutally honest Doubleup and MintTrav are about as useful to the remain campaign as Eddie Izzard.  Doubleup squeals of concentration camps if the issue of organised European crime is brought up and Mint thinks his below par local curry house is empty because everyone is staying home cowering at the outcome of the EU referendum.

Get a grip.

I was discussing the issues.  I made a perfectly civil post comparing the present job market with the brexit job market and pointing out that it couldn't possibly "optimise the output of our country and max the GDP."

Argueboy hijacked that post and started rabbiting on about foreign criminals and Kmac-lite jumped in with Albanian child prostitution.

Anyway this thread is pointless so gl

I made a perfectly civil post adding in the part of the EU 'workforce' that also arrives to perform their criminal activities on mass scale around the big UK cities alongside the skilled/unskilled legit workers you stated.   Not sure how i hijacked your post and how my point isn't relevant?

You going to admit you were wrong and apologise for misreading my 'drivel' statement or just ignore it and run away like a coward with your tail behind your legs?

[Doobs]

To be brutally honest Doubleup and MintTrav are about as useful to the remain campaign as Eddie Izzard.  Doubleup squeals of concentration camps if the issue of organised European crime is brought up and Mint thinks his below par local curry house is empty because everyone is staying home cowering at the outcome of the EU referendum.

Get a grip.

I was discussing the issues.  I made a perfectly civil post comparing the present job market with the brexit job market and pointing out that it couldn't possibly "optimise the output of our country and max the GDP."

Argueboy hijacked that post and started rabbiting on about foreign criminals and Kmac-lite jumped in with Albanian child prostitution.

Anyway this thread is pointless so gl

I made a perfectly civil post adding in the part of the EU 'workforce' that also arrives to perform their criminal activities on mass scale around the big UK cities alongside the skilled/unskilled legit workers you stated.   Not sure how i hijacked your post and how my point isn't relevant?

That is just prejudiced thinking though.  People read about Romanian gangs in the Mail and assume it is a common problem

The rate of criminality amongst immigrants is no higher than in the general population.  It is actually lower amongst the recent EU migrants.  The rate of benefit claiming is also significantly lower amongst the recent EU immigrants before we start that one too. 

The proportion of NHS staff born overseas is higher than in the general population too, so rather than strain resources, immigration alleviates the strain on resources.

[arbboy]

Doesn't mean we have to allow other countries criminals to prosper in our economy though just because the % of them is the same as UK born crims does it?  We wouldn't invite Mexico's gangs over here with open arms and no borders so why do we want to do the same with all the Eastern European Mafia?

[Doobs]

Doesn't mean we have to allow other countries criminals to prosper in our economy though just because the % of them is the same as UK born crims does it?  We wouldn't invite Mexico's gangs over here with open arms and no borders so why do we want to do the same with all the Eastern European Mafia?

We don't invite any criminals over here with open arms, just as we don't invite criminals from other parts of the UK into our towns with open arms.  There are going to be criminal elements in any population.   

[rfgqqabc]

I'm somewhat skeptical about someone who uses language as an excuse. Does he think the EU will want English instruction manuals after we leave the EU? I'm fairly sure the 6 month wait for skilled none EU workers is a plus for the EU system. The EU has fuck all to do with that. The Leave side is really making this easy. I don't think I'm going to vote as I'm not really persuaded by either side.

Arb you have to accept this criminality is a tiny % of the overall migration and ultimately impossible to stop. If there was a way of removing the criminal aspect I don't think anyone would argue against it. You have to accept some statistics here instead of your opinion. Admittedly Doobs didn't post them and I cba to find them, but I'm sure they are out there.

[MANTIS01]

Another concern for me is our drive towards the Living Wage, not that it isn't a noble objective to achieve for British citizens but because it makes our country even more appealing to economic migrants. Don't know what the hourly is in Bucharest but £9-10 here is going to be really attractive. Just like a poker stable all living in a house a work syndicate can travel across to UK simply for economic reasons. I employ a whole bunch of Hungarians and Bulgarians, all brilliant. All live in one house, focus purely on work and send most their wages home to their families. So how does a premium hourly work with freedom of movement (ie not market forces) esp when our European partners don't strive to mirror our fair pay objectives?

So don't get the point about immigrants not claiming benefit? If economic migrants arrive in numbers British employers can cherry pick the best unskilled labour (which in my experience is often the Europeans) which displaces the local labour who gotta sign on. What's the difference? The sum result is more people claiming benefits and sub-optimum performance for the country. Esp if most the wages are being sent home rather than spent in the UK.

[JohnCharver]

Doesn't mean we have to allow other countries criminals to prosper in our economy though just because the % of them is the same as UK born crims does it?  We wouldn't invite Mexico's gangs over here with open arms and no borders so why do we want to do the same with all the Eastern European Mafia?

We don't invite any criminals over here with open arms, just as we don't invite criminals from other parts of the UK into our towns with open arms.  There are going to be criminal elements in any population.   

But we do allow them to break EU rules and refuse to take their prisoners back.

[DungBeetle]

I'm somewhat skeptical about someone who uses language as an excuse. Does he think the EU will want English instruction manuals after we leave the EU? I'm fairly sure the 6 month wait for skilled none EU workers is a plus for the EU system. The EU has fuck all to do with that. The Leave side is really making this easy. I don't think I'm going to vote as I'm not really persuaded by either side.

Arb you have to accept this criminality is a tiny % of the overall migration and ultimately impossible to stop. If there was a way of removing the criminal aspect I don't think anyone would argue against it. You have to accept some statistics here instead of your opinion. Admittedly Doobs didn't post them and I cba to find them, but I'm sure they are out there.

Really not sure you want to use the Romanian (for example) crime stats blind before actually checking them.

[DungBeetle]

To be brutally honest Doubleup and MintTrav are about as useful to the remain campaign as Eddie Izzard.  Doubleup squeals of concentration camps if the issue of organised European crime is brought up and Mint thinks his below par local curry house is empty because everyone is staying home cowering at the outcome of the EU referendum.

Get a grip.

I was discussing the issues.  I made a perfectly civil post comparing the present job market with the brexit job market and pointing out that it couldn't possibly "optimise the output of our country and max the GDP."

Argueboy hijacked that post and started rabbiting on about foreign criminals and Kmac-lite jumped in with Albanian child prostitution.

Anyway this thread is pointless so gl

I made a perfectly civil post adding in the part of the EU 'workforce' that also arrives to perform their criminal activities on mass scale around the big UK cities alongside the skilled/unskilled legit workers you stated.   Not sure how i hijacked your post and how my point isn't relevant?

That is just prejudiced thinking though.  People read about Romanian gangs in the Mail and assume it is a common problem

The rate of criminality amongst immigrants is no higher than in the general population.  It is actually lower amongst the recent EU migrants.  The rate of benefit claiming is also significantly lower amongst the recent EU immigrants before we start that one too. 

The proportion of NHS staff born overseas is higher than in the general population too, so rather than strain resources, immigration alleviates the strain on resources.

Doobs do you have stats showing Romanian immigrants have a lower arrest incidence that he general population?  Pretty sure you're talking garbage on this one given the stats I have seen.

[Doobs]

I'm somewhat skeptical about someone who uses language as an excuse. Does he think the EU will want English instruction manuals after we leave the EU? I'm fairly sure the 6 month wait for skilled none EU workers is a plus for the EU system. The EU has fuck all to do with that. The Leave side is really making this easy. I don't think I'm going to vote as I'm not really persuaded by either side.

Arb you have to accept this criminality is a tiny % of the overall migration and ultimately impossible to stop. If there was a way of removing the criminal aspect I don't think anyone would argue against it. You have to accept some statistics here instead of your opinion. Admittedly Doobs didn't post them and I cba to find them, but I'm sure they are out there.

Really not sure you want to use the Romanian (for example) crime stats blind before actually checking them.

I didn't use them blind.  I am watching footy and on my phone and cut and paste is beyond me right now.  Will happily put them up later.

People are just making assumptions that aren't born out by the stats.  For example the number of Poles claiming benefits is way higher than the number of Romanians.  You ask the man on the street which they think is higher and I would be surprised if many got that right.