The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[TightEnd]

this from a sports journalist

 Paul Hayward‏Verified account @_PaulHayward

'Dementia Tax' a kind of Devon Loch moment for the Tories. Touches people's deepest fears about health, home and family.




 

[TightEnd]

George Osborne‏Verified account @George_Osborne

U-turn coming on social care. There will be a cap.

he's having quite a fun election really

sound off in editorials, get briefed on what is happening on the qt, tweet it.....

[Sheriff Fatman]

Heard a heartbreaking interview on the radio yesterday.

A lady was talking about her parents who were both in their mid 80s.

Her dad was the sole carer for her mum who has dementia.

He has decided to commit suicide after his wife dies, so his children get his estate in full.

Impossible to listen to this story without welling up somewhat.

I was discussing this yesterday evening and I said that I could imagine that many older people will look toward some form of assisted suicide as a means to ensure their families get a worthwhile inheritance.  Sadly, it seemed all too inevitable a consequence, and these people surely need protecting from allowing themselves to be seen as 'a burden' on their relatives (as many of them already do without this policy).

It's very sad that some might feel like that (and I'm sure some would) - but are there really going to be that many people who think that leaving £100,000 cash is going to be a failure as opposed to leaving a few hundred thousand pound property?

Seems to be valuing life a little cheaply doesn't it?

It's more the mindset of "if I die now, my kids get the whole of my estate, the longer I live the less they get".

I can think of a number of people who would be impacted to take some sort of action to prevent this, in the interests of their children.  I can also think of a few unscrupulous children who would think along similar lines.

Neither is something I'd want to encourage, particularly when it concerns a vulnerable age group.

In the area where I grew up (former coal-mining community, until the Tories destroyed it) the older generation families are typically working-class, will have worked all their lives on relatively low pay with the intention to pay off their mortgages, raise their families to hopefully do something better, and leave themselves enough to live on for retirement.  In general, they'll be cash poor, in the sense that most of what comes in post-retirement gets spent on the basics, and pretty much the only asset of significance will be their house (worth no more than £200,000 in today's market, if that).  They're now potentially living with the fear that even a short period of care in retirement will wipe out half of what they can leave for their children.

Maybe I'm particularly sensitive to this, as I come from somewhere which would be particularly vulnerable to it's impact.  Unsurprisingly, given that it's a Tory policy, it's the same communities that they've spent the last few decades repeatedly shafting at every opportunity.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Didn't take long....

http://news.sky.com/story/conservatives-climbdown-over-dementia-tax-after-backlash-10888708

[Woodsey]

Heard a heartbreaking interview on the radio yesterday.

A lady was talking about her parents who were both in their mid 80s.

Her dad was the sole carer for her mum who has dementia.

He has decided to commit suicide after his wife dies, so his children get his estate in full.

Impossible to listen to this story without welling up somewhat.

I was discussing this yesterday evening and I said that I could imagine that many older people will look toward some form of assisted suicide as a means to ensure their families get a worthwhile inheritance.  Sadly, it seemed all too inevitable a consequence, and these people surely need protecting from allowing themselves to be seen as 'a burden' on their relatives (as many of them already do without this policy).

It's very sad that some might feel like that (and I'm sure some would) - but are there really going to be that many people who think that leaving £100,000 cash is going to be a failure as opposed to leaving a few hundred thousand pound property?

Seems to be valuing life a little cheaply doesn't it?

It's more the mindset of "if I die now, my kids get the whole of my estate, the longer I live the less they get".

I can think of a number of people who would be impacted to take some sort of action to prevent this, in the interests of their children.  I can also think of a few unscrupulous children who would think along similar lines.

Neither is something I'd want to encourage, particularly when it concerns a vulnerable age group.

In the area where I grew up (former coal-mining community, until the Tories destroyed it) the older generation families are typically working-class, will have worked all their lives on relatively low pay with the intention to pay off their mortgages, raise their families to hopefully do something better, and leave themselves enough to live on for retirement.  In general, they'll be cash poor, in the sense that most of what comes in post-retirement gets spent on the basics, and pretty much the only asset of significance will be their house (worth no more than £200,000 in today's market, if that).  They're now potentially living with the fear that even a short period of care in retirement will wipe out half of what they can leave for their children.

Maybe I'm particularly sensitive to this, as I come from somewhere which would be particularly vulnerable to it's impact.  Unsurprisingly, given that it's a Tory policy, it's the same communities that they've spent the last few decades repeatedly shafting at every opportunity.

Everybody would be shafted, the richer even more so there's no group that deserves any extra sympathy over another.

Think I might get my mum to downsize to a 100k flat and stash the rest of the money under the mattress 

[ripple11]

i think the tactics of it is interesting

they could have said

"ageing population, lots of funding strains for the state because of social care, triple lock etc.we are going to appoint a royal commission to recommend strategies and put it to parliament"

instead they threw it straight into the manifesto, where it affects their core support (older, wealthy) the most

of course they think that this might be one of the few elections they can propose this (which everyone agrees is a problem for the economy as baby boomers reach retirement and people are living longer) and win (Cameron couldn't) but i wonder how squeaky it gets if it goes say 43-40% in the polls in the next few weeks

if it does i suppose they get corbyn as opposition for another five years, so maybe they don'tmind that

(thinking aloud)

ahh.... she read your post and substituted "royal commission" for "green paper". Job done 

[ripple11]

Mind you she couldn't face Andrew Neil tonight without a "clarification"....he would have ripped her apart.

[ripple11]

Dilnot in 2011....

The Dilnot Commission estimates that its proposals – based on a cap of £35,000 – would cost the State around £1.7billion.

Obvioulys more now and going up, but doesn't seem a huge figure in the scale of Gov spending. Seems stupid not to put in a cap originally.

[The Camel]

The first Tory policy proposal I've agreed with in 40 years and they abandon it inside a week!

[Cf]

Out of morbid curiosity I like to read the daily mail comments occasionally.

Even there TM is getting a mauling over this u-turn!

[DaveShoelace]

What is the current policy? I actually assumed it was a variation of the one in the Tory manifesto, having recently seen my Father in Law have to deal with social care for his late mother and selling the house when she passed away.

[nirvana]

What is the current policy? I actually assumed it was a variation of the one in the Tory manifesto, having recently seen my Father in Law have to deal with social care for his late mother and selling the house when she passed away.

They can't recover any costs of care provided from your estate currently. It's something like all assets assessed (excluding yr house). If you have > £23k you pay until you dont

[Jon MW]

What is the current policy? I actually assumed it was a variation of the one in the Tory manifesto, having recently seen my Father in Law have to deal with social care for his late mother and selling the house when she passed away.

Like Nirvana said except also if you receive care outside of your home then they can use the value of your property in assessing if you need to pay - if you're living in your home then they can't.

The change is raising the amount you're left with to £100,000 but allowing the value of your house to be taken into account if you're still living there (but only collectable after you die).

This but adding the suggested cap to how much total you could spend doesn't seem too bad, does it(?)

Although I think the margins should have a lock built in - such as the amount you're left with and the cap tied in to average house prices, for example. That way future politicians have less leeway to freeze or change the cut off points for short term gain.

[nirvana]

What is the current policy? I actually assumed it was a variation of the one in the Tory manifesto, having recently seen my Father in Law have to deal with social care for his late mother and selling the house when she passed away.

Like Nirvana said except also if you receive care outside of your home then they can use the value of your property in assessing if you need to pay - if you're living in your home then they can't.

The change is raising the amount you're left with to £100,000 but allowing the value of your house to be taken into account if you're still living there (but only collectable after you die).

This but adding the suggested cap to how much total you could spend doesn't seem too bad, does it(?)

Although I think the margins should have a lock built in - such as the amount you're left with and the cap tied in to average house prices, for example. That way future politicians have less leeway to freeze or change the cut off points for short term gain.

I'd forgotten that important difference between residential and domiciliary care in yr first para. My poor wife may need to keep me at home no matter how senile I get

[Doobs]

What is the current policy? I actually assumed it was a variation of the one in the Tory manifesto, having recently seen my Father in Law have to deal with social care for his late mother and selling the house when she passed away.

Like Nirvana said except also if you receive care outside of your home then they can use the value of your property in assessing if you need to pay - if you're living in your home then they can't.

The change is raising the amount you're left with to £100,000 but allowing the value of your house to be taken into account if you're still living there (but only collectable after you die).

This but adding the suggested cap to how much total you could spend doesn't seem too bad, does it(?)

Although I think the margins should have a lock built in - such as the amount you're left with and the cap tied in to average house prices, for example. That way future politicians have less leeway to freeze or change the cut off points for short term gain.

Sounds awful.  Inheritance amd property are two of the biggest barriers to social mobility.  When they put the cap on, they punish the poorer home owners disproportionally.  Make the cap 200k then someone with a 200k house loses half their wealth, someone with a million loses 10%.

I'd tax inheritances as if it was personal income to the recipient.  Maybe you could make it a lower rate?  So if I am broke, I get to keep more than if I am a 40% tax payer.

Given I went through the dementia and death thing with my father I pondered this a lot.  At the end he had no idea who anybody was, or if he was in his house, or how much money he had.  What harm is done by him paying for his care?  He really would have had no idea.  Should this shell of a man pay nothing whilst nurses on 20k a year paid extra taxes.  Should I get a tax free lump sum, whilst those who visit food banks pay the tax I don't.  

I thinl it was a very brave policy and it is a bit of a shame that the party I normally support are instead pissing away money on their own policies for political reasons.  In amongst all that spending they weren't even stopping the benefit freeze ffs.