The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[titaniumbean]

We go to Syria and Iraq and kill them.  I don't understand your bewilderment.

what other solution is there? i can't see one

it might be politically inpalatable particularly with the left but ultimately you have to destroy them at source, on the ground and through the air. will come at major cost and may take years, but i dont see another way

if military intervention in whatever form is the only way then i'm all for it, and am awed by the technology we have, yet we have no specific enemy to fight so our technological advantage is null.

[TightEnd]

We go to Syria and Iraq and kill them.  I don't understand your bewilderment.

what other solution is there? i can't see one

it might be politically inpalatable particularly with the left but ultimately you have to destroy them at source, on the ground and through the air. will come at major cost and may take years, but i dont see another way

if military intervention in whatever form is the only way then i'm all for it, and am awed by the technology we have, yet we have no specific enemy to fight so our technological advantage is null.

ISIS is the specific enemy, thats clear yes? i think you are being obtuse

we presumably have enough intelligence to target bases, leaders and areas. we have done so already.

don't want to do it, but give me an alternative that sees this come to a conclusion?

[The Camel]

We go to Syria and Iraq and kill them.  I don't understand your bewilderment.

what other solution is there? i can't see one

it might be politically inpalatable particularly with the left but ultimately you have to destroy them at source, on the ground and through the air. will come at major cost and may take years, but i dont see another way

You can't destroy them, because every time you time you create a martyr, there's 10 more stepping up to the plate in the hope they become a martyr too.

You can't beat a movement by bombing, shooting or killing them when the people in that movement actively welcome being killed as they think there's 72 virgins in paradise waiting for them.

I don't know what the solution is, indeed I am beginning to doubt there is a solution, but attacking Syria isn't the answer.

[titaniumbean]

We go to Syria and Iraq and kill them.  I don't understand your bewilderment.

what other solution is there? i can't see one

it might be politically inpalatable particularly with the left but ultimately you have to destroy them at source, on the ground and through the air. will come at major cost and may take years, but i dont see another way

if military intervention in whatever form is the only way then i'm all for it, and am awed by the technology we have, yet we have no specific enemy to fight so our technological advantage is null.

ISIS is the specific enemy, thats clear yes? i think you are being obtuse

we presumably have enough intelligence to target bases, leaders and areas. we have done so already.

don't want to do it, but give me an alternative that sees this come to a conclusion?

I'm not against your last line.

I just fail to see how it will be so easy, given how pathetically we've failed already at 'targetting' people, at doing anything for the right reasons.

We will now just react and scale up things that we already know aren't working. That doesn't seem to be a good solution.

Fucked if I have a better one, I am merely saying this as we seem to have a subordinate media who would never question anything let alone think for themselves or do journalism.


Was Iraq or Afghanistan a 'success'?

[titaniumbean]

We go to Syria and Iraq and kill them.  I don't understand your bewilderment.

what other solution is there? i can't see one

it might be politically inpalatable particularly with the left but ultimately you have to destroy them at source, on the ground and through the air. will come at major cost and may take years, but i dont see another way

You can't destroy them, because every time you time you create a martyr, there's 10 more stepping up to the plate in the hope they become a martyr too.

You can't beat a movement by bombing, shooting or killing them when the people in that movement actively welcome being killed as they think there's 72 virgins in paradise waiting for them.

I don't know what the solution is, indeed I am beginning to doubt there is a solution, but attacking Syria isn't the answer.

exactly, I presume the fact i'm so anti 'empire', anti our privacy being removed and a loler who cant write good sounding English doesn't help my points!

[TightEnd]

i may be looking in the wrong place, but why is there no condemnation of the attacks by "moderate" Islamic leaders?

[The Camel]

We go to Syria and Iraq and kill them.  I don't understand your bewilderment.

what other solution is there? i can't see one

it might be politically inpalatable particularly with the left but ultimately you have to destroy them at source, on the ground and through the air. will come at major cost and may take years, but i dont see another way

You can't destroy them, because every time you time you create a martyr, there's 10 more stepping up to the plate in the hope they become a martyr too.

You can't beat a movement by bombing, shooting or killing them when the people in that movement actively welcome being killed as they think there's 72 virgins in paradise waiting for them.

I don't know what the solution is, indeed I am beginning to doubt there is a solution, but attacking Syria isn't the answer.

exactly, I presume the fact i'm so anti 'empire', anti our privacy being removed and a loler who cant write good sounding English doesn't help my points!

Don't worry.

The security services will make sure these attacks will lead to our privacy being invaded and our freedoms limited more than ever before.

[RickBFA]

I think we have this problem for the next 10-20 years minimum.

No easy answers but we have to take out their leadership and try to counter their PR machine which recruits marginalised Muslims.

[TightEnd]

We go to Syria and Iraq and kill them.  I don't understand your bewilderment.

what other solution is there? i can't see one

it might be politically inpalatable particularly with the left but ultimately you have to destroy them at source, on the ground and through the air. will come at major cost and may take years, but i dont see another way

You can't destroy them, because every time you time you create a martyr, there's 10 more stepping up to the plate in the hope they become a martyr too.

You can't beat a movement by bombing, shooting or killing them when the people in that movement actively welcome being killed as they think there's 72 virgins in paradise waiting for them.

I don't know what the solution is, indeed I am beginning to doubt there is a solution, but attacking Syria isn't the answer.

exactly, I presume the fact i'm so anti 'empire', anti our privacy being removed and a loler who cant write good sounding English doesn't help my points!

Don't worry.

The security services will make sure these attacks will lead to our privacy being invaded and our freedoms limited more than ever before.

you might argue it is variance that sees France attacked and not us on this occasion, you might also argue that the more pervasive use of CCTV here compared to France and the greater difficulty of accessing via our borders (partly geography, partly policy) is a factor too

i agree with you that "intrusion" is likely to increase, but probably disagree with you on it being overwhelmingly negative in this geo-political environment

[TightEnd]

there are some good articles around on ISIS

"The larger question of course is whether such an integral pillar of the region (albeit shockingly violent and extreme) can be defeated.

Without Western military intervention it is unlikely. "

says Michael Stephens Director of the Royal United Services Institute, Qatar,

at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29004253

where to go?

here for starters

Click to see full-size image.

then probably have to occupy for a generation

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29052144

nasty, but no one is giving alternatives

[doubleup]

We go to Syria and Iraq and kill them.  I don't understand your bewilderment.

define them.

I cant tell if you are trying to troll, you don't normally so I'm confused.


Who would we fight? Muslims? Syrians? non whites? non americans? define 'the baddies'. What uniform do they wear?

isis is a defined group controlling territory.  The first step should be entirely destroying that "organisation" in that territory.  The next step should be to identify other networks and propaganda groups in the middle east and elsewhere and eradicate them.  

Anyone disseminating murderous ideology from a "safe haven" should be quite clear that they can expect a drone through their window or if operating in a western country, life imprisonment.

[The Camel]

I think we have this problem for the next 10-20 years minimum.

No easy answers but we have to take out their leadership and try to counter their PR machine which recruits marginalised Muslims.

The only possibly solution I can see is to eliminate the massive wealth disparity between the West and the rest of the world.

If what they have in life was better than what they think awaits them by dying a martyr, then perhaps they'd think twice before blowing themselves to smithereens.

I won't hold my breath waiting for global inequality to be solved.

[titaniumbean]

We go to Syria and Iraq and kill them.  I don't understand your bewilderment.

what other solution is there? i can't see one

it might be politically inpalatable particularly with the left but ultimately you have to destroy them at source, on the ground and through the air. will come at major cost and may take years, but i dont see another way

You can't destroy them, because every time you time you create a martyr, there's 10 more stepping up to the plate in the hope they become a martyr too.

You can't beat a movement by bombing, shooting or killing them when the people in that movement actively welcome being killed as they think there's 72 virgins in paradise waiting for them.

I don't know what the solution is, indeed I am beginning to doubt there is a solution, but attacking Syria isn't the answer.

exactly, I presume the fact i'm so anti 'empire', anti our privacy being removed and a loler who cant write good sounding English doesn't help my points!

Don't worry.

The security services will make sure these attacks will lead to our privacy being invaded and our freedoms limited more than ever before.

they admit they failed to follow up leads in the run up to 9/11 because of inter agency intelligence sharing failures. Boston, Madrid, London, Paris, Mumbai (not forgetting most middle eastern countries that have one of these per day) and yet with the fallout from this most recent atrocity they are going to gleefully push through the snoopers charter excitedly pointing at the news saying omg be scared, dont worry though now we can stop it. You can read stuff OBL wrote many many years ago in his cave, telling his followers not to use Western technology but as long as they keep pushing infront of the media the other special needs person who they entrapped then 'caught' they can justify more invasiveness.  At the same time we can continue with foreign policies designed specifically around our economic dreams and personal prejudices and just watch as more and more people get fucked off and radicalised.

We go to Syria and Iraq and kill them.  I don't understand your bewilderment.

what other solution is there? i can't see one

it might be politically inpalatable particularly with the left but ultimately you have to destroy them at source, on the ground and through the air. will come at major cost and may take years, but i dont see another way

You can't destroy them, because every time you time you create a martyr, there's 10 more stepping up to the plate in the hope they become a martyr too.

You can't beat a movement by bombing, shooting or killing them when the people in that movement actively welcome being killed as they think there's 72 virgins in paradise waiting for them.

I don't know what the solution is, indeed I am beginning to doubt there is a solution, but attacking Syria isn't the answer.

exactly, I presume the fact i'm so anti 'empire', anti our privacy being removed and a loler who cant write good sounding English doesn't help my points!

Don't worry.

The security services will make sure these attacks will lead to our privacy being invaded and our freedoms limited more than ever before.

you might argue it is variance that sees France attacked and not us on this occasion, you might also argue that the more pervasive use of CCTV here compared to France and the greater difficulty of accessing via our borders (partly geography, partly policy) is a factor too

i agree with you that "intrusion" is likely to increase, but probably disagree with you on it being overwhelmingly negative in this geo-political environment

is it variance that we bomb random people in countries daily and give no shits? our actions engender anger in many many people yet we will never consider ourselves to be doing harm or anything wrong. How then can we solve it?

France also has a significantly greater Muslim population, remembering of course that many of those fighting in Syria have LEFT Europe to do so, Jihadi John the PR dream that we team america'ed the day before is a prime example.

You seem to suggest that the French don't have cameras or a security service that works in line with ours and Americans on CT issues?  The only people we are catching with invasive and often illegal 'blanket spying' are those we could catch with a whistle and baton. The bulk of other 'benefits' from it come Economically and politically. Neither of those help with CT.


The whole region is a mess, considering how appalling the countries we ally ourselves with. Which is impressive given how appalling the rest of them are. Yet we have been complicit in funding much of the extremism, AND arming them. We must at least accept some form of blame before we send more young men to die for a cause the home office couldn't even explain to them.



Really interesting line in that article you linked tighty-

"The point is that Islamic State is essentially self-financing; it cannot be isolated and cut off from the world because it is intimately tied into regional stability in a way that benefits not only itself, but also the people it fights."

[titaniumbean]

nasty, but no one is giving alternatives

this quote could be used to sum up so much of politics in the modern day.

[TightEnd]

andrew

last night saw 8 bombers/terrorists, not a lone wolf

all of whom get grenades, kalashnikovs etc onto french soil etc and used them in multiple locations with no warning

do you not think that is a French intelligence failing?