The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[PokerBroker]

That is a massive part of the problem Karabiner in that people who do or should know the difference hide behind ignorance and there are those who are not educated enough and don't know the difference but get lost in the ambiguity.  

Corbyn and Macdonald get grief for supporting Hamas and the Provos.  Or for calling them friends, but when America is backing up Zionism or over throwing democracy in just about every socialist country the world has ever seen it's national interests are more important.  Or when Thatcher was supporting Pinochet in Chile or De Klerk in South Africa it was all ok.  

Unfortunately their are agendas at play.  I think Ken is an arsehole, but this isn't about Ken it's about those on the Right of Lahour trying to undermine Corbyn and his leadership team.  Sadly, too many will fall for it.  

[DungBeetle]

That is a massive part of the problem Karabiner in that people who do or should know the difference hide behind ignorance and there are those who are not educated enough and don't know the difference but get lost in the ambiguity.  

Corbyn and Macdonald get grief for supporting Hamas and the Provos.  Or for calling them friends, but when America is backing up Zionism or over throwing democracy in just about every socialist country the world has ever seen it's national interests are more important.  Or when Thatcher was supporting Pinochet in Chile or De Klerk in South Africa it was all ok.  

Unfortunately their are agendas at play.  I think Ken is an arsehole, but this isn't about Ken it's about those on the Right of Lahour trying to undermine Corbyn and his leadership team.  Sadly, too many will fall for it.  

Presumably you think the left wing of the Labour Party has no issue with anti semitism whatsoever?  You think it's something cooked up by the Tories/press/Blairites?

[Karabiner]

Excellent post sir.

Unfortunately many people that I know, some of whom are highly intelligent, are not even aware that there is a difference between Israelis and Jews, seemingly believing that the two words are interchangeable, let alone getting a grasp on right and left-wing Jewish/Israeli politics.

Are you a Zionist Ralph?

I think we discussed this once before over an ostrich tandoori.

I am a Zionist in as much as I believe that the state of Israel should exist, however I am not in favour of any long-term expansionist agenda.

I would be delighted for a peaceful Palestinian state to co-exist with Israel.

[PokerBroker]

That is a massive part of the problem Karabiner in that people who do or should know the difference hide behind ignorance and there are those who are not educated enough and don't know the difference but get lost in the ambiguity.  

Corbyn and Macdonald get grief for supporting Hamas and the Provos.  Or for calling them friends, but when America is backing up Zionism or over throwing democracy in just about every socialist country the world has ever seen it's national interests are more important.  Or when Thatcher was supporting Pinochet in Chile or De Klerk in South Africa it was all ok.  

Unfortunately their are agendas at play.  I think Ken is an arsehole, but this isn't about Ken it's about those on the Right of Lahour trying to undermine Corbyn and his leadership team.  Sadly, too many will fall for it.  

Presumably you think the left wing of the Labour Party has no issue with anti semitism whatsoever?  You think it's something cooked up by the Tories/press/Blairites?

Presumably you think so. 

I don't give a shit about the Labour Party.  But I am pretty certain they don't have a problem with anti-semitsm.

[The Camel]

Excellent post sir.

Unfortunately many people that I know, some of whom are highly intelligent, are not even aware that there is a difference between Israelis and Jews, seemingly believing that the two words are interchangeable, let alone getting a grasp on right and left-wing Jewish/Israeli politics.

Are you a Zionist Ralph?

I think we discussed this once before over an ostrich tandoori.

I am a Zionist in as much as I believe that the state of Israel should exist, however I am not in favour of any long-term expansionist agenda.

I would be delighted for a peaceful Palestinian state to co-exist with Israel.

Crickey, you have a good memory.

I have no recollection of that meal apart from our feathered friend.

I think the difficulty many gentiles in the UK with understanding Jews and Jewish culture is that we find it difficult to imagine that a British person could identify so strongly with a country that they don't live in or have citizenship in while maintaining they are British.

[Karabiner]

Excellent post sir.

Unfortunately many people that I know, some of whom are highly intelligent, are not even aware that there is a difference between Israelis and Jews, seemingly believing that the two words are interchangeable, let alone getting a grasp on right and left-wing Jewish/Israeli politics.

Are you a Zionist Ralph?

I think we discussed this once before over an ostrich tandoori.

I am a Zionist in as much as I believe that the state of Israel should exist, however I am not in favour of any long-term expansionist agenda.

I would be delighted for a peaceful Palestinian state to co-exist with Israel.

Crickey, you have a good memory.

I have no recollection of that meal apart from our feathered friend.

I think the difficulty many gentiles in the UK with understanding Jews and Jewish culture is that we find it difficult to imagine that a British person could identify so strongly with a country that they don't live in or have citizenship in while maintaining they are British.

Possibly even more so with an atheist secular Jew which is what I am.

I still consider myself just as Jewish as the most observant orthodox Jew although they would almost certainly dispute that.

On the subject of ostrich tandoris my friend Naj who used to own Mem Saab and came over for a chat and a drink with us after our meal is opening a new restaurant this week 500 yards from where I live.

[TightEnd]

Click to see full-size image.

[TightEnd]

interestign election night

Holyrood

SNP 63 (-6) CON 31 (+16) LAB 24 (-13) GRN 6 (+4) LIB 5 (=) SNP short by 2

SNP lose their majority, conservatives beat labour to second

1st time conservative over 22% of vote in scotland since 1992

Davidson won edinburgh central from SNP as a 6/1 underdog on the morning of polling



presumably knocks a second referendum on the head until they get their majority back?


Wales saw a big surge from UKIP Lab 28, PC 12, Con 11, UKIP 8, LDs 1.


Corbyn result bad but not terrible (and safe enough to call the dogs off), piling up votes in safe areas (and young, urban voters) but no headway in marginals

council seats so far

LAB 749 (-27) CON 433 (+5) LIB 166 (+10) UKIP 28 (+20) GRN 12 (-1)

1st time an official opposition has lost seats in council elections since 1985, third time ever

of course winning london will help put some positives in, helped by goldsmith's horrific campaign

[TightEnd]

ipsos mori say

"As SNP rule clearly Scotland, Lab likely to need 13 point lead in England to win GE2020 = v unlikely"

interesting times

[TightEnd]

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton

Scottish Labour's defeat to the Tories shows defining divide is unionist-nationalist, not left-right - my piece: http://bit.ly/1SRbli7

[Teacake]

Pro independence parties are still in the majority in Scotland, l know lots of people who are pro independence but didn't vote SNP. It's also not as straightforward as that, if the SNP maintained their majority there wouldn't be a clamour for a referendum in the short term, it will only be pursued when it's pretty certain to win, which it isn't close to atm.

[The Camel]

Pro independence parties are still in the majority in Scotland, l know lots of people who are pro independence but didn't vote SNP. It's also not as straightforward as that, if the SNP maintained their majority there wouldn't be a clamour for a referendum in the short term, it will only be pursued when it's pretty certain to win, which it isn't close to atm.

I would be pro Independence if I was Scottish.

But surely this is once in a generation thing.

You can't keep having referendums until you win one. That would be silly.

50 years until the next one IMO.

[doubleup]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/06/michael-gove-says-david-cameron-will-be-forced-to-take-immediate/


....“end the application” of the Charter of Fundamental Rights, which sets out 50 rights and principles which can be enforced by the European Court of Justice...

Gove's fantasy - immediately downgrading human rights in the UK (and presumably employment rights shortly after).

[Woodsey]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/06/michael-gove-says-david-cameron-will-be-forced-to-take-immediate/


....“end the application” of the Charter of Fundamental Rights, which sets out 50 rights and principles which can be enforced by the European Court of Justice...

Gove's fantasy - immediately downgrading human rights in the UK (and presumably employment rights shortly after).

Suits me.

'allowing foreign criminals and terrorists to be deported without hindrance'

How much time and money did we waste on that wanker Abu Hamza?

[Doobs]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/06/michael-gove-says-david-cameron-will-be-forced-to-take-immediate/


....“end the application” of the Charter of Fundamental Rights, which sets out 50 rights and principles which can be enforced by the European Court of Justice...

Gove's fantasy - immediately downgrading human rights in the UK (and presumably employment rights shortly after).

You wouldn't think that the human rights legislation was all our idea.  88 million people about to start swamping the NHS.  No mention of the high proportion of immigrants we use to help run  it.  And that is before we get to the tricky questions  of Tory policy on the NHS.  Gove really is a wanker of the highest order.  Love the fact he rules out running for PM.  I suspect Corbyn has more chance of winning.

Just realised they have given Peston a TV show.  Yuck.