The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[TightEnd]

Hi America, today's the day British politics went mad

https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahjewell/hi-america-british-politics-went-completely-mad-today?utm_term=.gjNg5bO03d#.pwyG68rVj3

[TightEnd]

Farage says of Bob Geldof's boat: "multi-millionaires shouting down honest working communities. Pretty disgusting"

Click to see full-size image.

[TightEnd]

There's only one vote for leftwingers in this referendum, Remain:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/theres-only-one-vote-leftwingers-referendum-remain

[TightEnd]

this is a good read, no matter if you agree with it or not.

had to c and p as its behind a paywall


AA Gill article in full #voteremain.

Brexit: AA Gill argues for ‘In’.
We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of that most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia

AA Gill
June 12 2016, 12:01am,
The Sunday Times

It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”

It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”

Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.

We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.

The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.

And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.” This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.

All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.

There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them.

The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness — well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? — to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.

Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty
We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.

Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”

When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”

Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.

You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.

Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.

The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.

There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job — food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.

The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.

Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?

I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in.

[TightEnd]

Some Labour MPs avoid canvassing estates for fear of abuse they'll attract

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/eu-referendum-was-meant-be-tory-nightmare-it-has-become-one-labour

[TightEnd]

'Smart guy, stupid move'?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36543091

[TightEnd]

Leave brain, Remain brain: what the different sides are thinking:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2016/06/what-are-brexiteers-thinking

[TightEnd]

Click to see full-size image.

Click to see full-size image.

[david3103]

Serious question, as I waver a little in my voting intentions.

What does UK politics look like post-referendum if the result is remain, but with a <55% vote?

Equally, how does it look if there is a tiny Leave majority?

My instinct supports Leave, I have found good, to me, logical reasons for that decision, but I don't want to live in a country that is led by BoJo, Farage and Gove.

The issue for me is that even if we vote, by what will likely be a close run thing, Remain, will we still face the rise of UKIP as the Scots Nats did following their failed referendum campaign.

Damnit, I thought I had this sorted.

[PokerBroker]

For me the two referendums are completely different.  The SNP rise was obviously fuelled by the resentment of a no vote but probably moreso due to the collapse of Labour up here. 

Whatever the result and despite the rhetoric I don't think the Tories can come back together after this.  I see a split.

I think if Remain win that Farage will toddle offinto the political wilderness,well I hope he does. 

[TightEnd]

Serious question, as I waver a little in my voting intentions.

What does UK politics look like post-referendum if the result is remain, but with a <55% vote?

Equally, how does it look if there is a tiny Leave majority?

My instinct supports Leave, I have found good, to me, logical reasons for that decision, but I don't want to live in a country that is led by BoJo, Farage and Gove.

The issue for me is that even if we vote, by what will likely be a close run thing, Remain, will we still face the rise of UKIP as the Scots Nats did following their failed referendum campaign.

Damnit, I thought I had this sorted.

i think this is what a lot of the "anti-immigration" voters from the working class left (i am not labelling you here, just highlighting a crucial demographic) miss

they think that leaving will control the flow of migrants in...i doubt it will much if it all but they have been affected in their communities and their jobs by the different fabric of society in the last 15-20 years so its a key thing

and they think that "getting back control" of our country means they win.

They don't they lose because the conservative party (operating in a fixed term parliament so in place til 2020 at least) lurches to the right (cameron and osborne would be odds on to go and the party is more eurosceptic than the current leadership so would vote in something righter-wing) which means a possible diminution of their workers rights, almost certainly more problems for the NHS etc

now you might "get lucky" and get theresa may or similar new prime minister but johnson with gove as chancellor will be a popular ticket......

this is what i was trying to argue with until i flouced off with nirvana. there is a big difference between this government which has been trying to occupy a centre vacated by the labour party and therein win marginals at the next election/securing a majority again and a post brexit rightward shift under a new prime minister

[DMorgan]

Maybe all that that Leave voters really need is a hug?

Click to see full-size image.

Edit: Thanks for the c+p Tighty

insouciance  insouciance  insouciance

[TightEnd]

that table is quite remarkable. they trust no one and by some way!


meanwhile

 Remain’s problem in this referendum dates back to the renegotiation and the EU’s failure to engage on free movement http://bit.ly/21nXpO1

[vegaslover]

Serious question, as I waver a little in my voting intentions.

What does UK politics look like post-referendum if the result is remain, but with a <55% vote?

Equally, how does it look if there is a tiny Leave majority?

My instinct supports Leave, I have found good, to me, logical reasons for that decision, but I don't want to live in a country that is led by BoJo, Farage and Gove.

The issue for me is that even if we vote, by what will likely be a close run thing, Remain, will we still face the rise of UKIP as the Scots Nats did following their failed referendum campaign.

Damnit, I thought I had this sorted.

i think this is what a lot of the "anti-immigration" voters from the working class left (i am not labelling you here, just highlighting a crucial demographic) miss

they think that leaving will control the flow of migrants in...i doubt it will much if it all but they have been affected in their communities and their jobs by the different fabric of society in the last 15-20 years so its a key thing

and they think that "getting back control" of our country means they win.

They don't they lose because the conservative party (operating in a fixed term parliament so in place til 2020 at least) lurches to the right (cameron and osborne would be odds on to go and the party is more eurosceptic than the current leadership so would vote in something righter-wing) which means a possible diminution of their workers rights, almost certainly more problems for the NHS etc

now you might "get lucky" and get theresa may or similar new prime minister but johnson with gove as chancellor will be a popular ticket......

this is what i was trying to argue with until i flouced off with nirvana. there is a big difference between this government which has been trying to occupy a centre vacated by the labour party and therein win marginals at the next election/securing a majority again and a post brexit rightward shift under a new prime minister

Rich,
As the days go on your posts get as bad as the current remain politicians imo.
Pretty obv you voting to stay, but virtually every post you make/link you put it, says how great the remain side is and how stupid/working class leave side is.

Stating the NHS could be in trouble with a leave vote is ridiculous when over the past 6 years the NHS has moved at an ever increasing pace towards privatisation and will continue to do so with a remain vote. Not to mention TTIP, which will fuck public services completely.

[TightEnd]

i put up a wide range of links, from all sides

i don't have to, and anyone else can put up anything they want from any side.