The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[nirvana]

I too live in a lovely old Roman town which 10 years ago if you stood in the Market Place, you would hear just English spoken bar the odd tourist. Now if you closed your eyes and listened, you could be anywhere in Europe, at any time of the day.

I don't know for sure whether you feel that this is a bad thing, but voting out is not going to change this for a long time. In fact it will get much worse as may more EU immigrants will come over the next two years while they can still move freely. And all the ones that are already here and want to stay, will be allowed to stay so it's unlikely to ever get back to some 1960s England that many of the older generation seem to clamor for.

All the doom messages can't actually happen. We all agree migrants don't come here just to claim benefits. If the UK economy is gonna shed jobs at the rate the remainiacs think it is and we're going into meltdown there will be no jobs to come here for. Isn't this obvious. We'll either do reasonably well with slightly slower growth, jobs will be created and migration will continue at more or less the same level. Or, we crash for ever and no one will come - need to think which you think it is

[TightEnd]

the tabled equivalent of pissing into the wind....

Click to see full-size image.

[nirvana]

I love working with people of all nationalities, I have learned so much about different cultures and histories just by talking to these people. In the hospitality trade most of the staff are foreign due to the fact that the British feel it's a career 'beneath them' and believe they are better than minimum wage.

Here in Guernsey a company has to advertise a job locally for 2 weeks before they can advertise worldwide, we get zero applications from local people!

The vote is done rather than all the doom and gloom I believe the UK will become stronger for it, but that's just my opinion.

You can go on about immigration etc, but the real, real root cause has been weak governments happy to pay tucking lazy stats too much to do nothing.

As taxi refers to, the fact people won't give up their dole money unless they get £x, is the initial problem. This then creates positions for immigrants to take, and so the circle begins. This country should never have a need to let people in to pick fruit because local unemployed think it is too hard work for the money.

If we had stronger Government that MADE people work, stuff such as trade agreements, the reason we joined the EU, would probably all still be in place.

You can't just make people work.  Not unless you become almost communist in outlook.  We have never had 100% employment. 

People won't work unless they get a decent day's pay, and why should they?  That sais at the other side of the spectrum there is proper greed.  We should have a cap and collar on salaries the cap shouldn't allow people to become filthy rich that they have so much money they don't know what to do with it, the collar should be set at a level were folk working were able to lead a decent standard of life. 

Bonkers

its market forces and much as you would wish we can't just put market forces in a box and hide it uneder the bed never to be seen again

there would be a massive talent drain. fine you say let them fuck off. however the disproportionate impact on tax revenue would be felt by the rest of the country in lower budgets elsewhere or higher taxes

the solution isn't to artificially impose wage caps on certain industries, those industries simply will not operate here.

as one example of this, it was talked about yesterday that BNP Paribas and JP Morgan would have to move their headquarters to dublin or frankfurt to enable the firms still to operate in the single market

thats 7500 bankers it says, in phase one. thats a couple of billion (the estimate was £5bn, but lets underegg it a bit) out of the HMRC coffers straight away. 

Shouldn't you be careful to not state these things as facts. I saw a rep from JP Morgan talking about consequences on the Nick Robinson programme. He was being all tabloid as the BBC are wont to do on this issue and she didn't really respond as he hoped she would - painted a much more moderate and intelligent picture of the future.

[nirvana]

Coming to the conclusion that remainers are primarily motivated by embarrassment, hence all the sneering and contempt. They has a degree and are less than 89, have a European friend or two and they have to apologise for Britain. Grow up girls

[TightEnd]

I love working with people of all nationalities, I have learned so much about different cultures and histories just by talking to these people. In the hospitality trade most of the staff are foreign due to the fact that the British feel it's a career 'beneath them' and believe they are better than minimum wage.

Here in Guernsey a company has to advertise a job locally for 2 weeks before they can advertise worldwide, we get zero applications from local people!

The vote is done rather than all the doom and gloom I believe the UK will become stronger for it, but that's just my opinion.

You can go on about immigration etc, but the real, real root cause has been weak governments happy to pay tucking lazy stats too much to do nothing.

As taxi refers to, the fact people won't give up their dole money unless they get £x, is the initial problem. This then creates positions for immigrants to take, and so the circle begins. This country should never have a need to let people in to pick fruit because local unemployed think it is too hard work for the money.

If we had stronger Government that MADE people work, stuff such as trade agreements, the reason we joined the EU, would probably all still be in place.

You can't just make people work.  Not unless you become almost communist in outlook.  We have never had 100% employment. 

People won't work unless they get a decent day's pay, and why should they?  That sais at the other side of the spectrum there is proper greed.  We should have a cap and collar on salaries the cap shouldn't allow people to become filthy rich that they have so much money they don't know what to do with it, the collar should be set at a level were folk working were able to lead a decent standard of life. 

Bonkers

its market forces and much as you would wish we can't just put market forces in a box and hide it uneder the bed never to be seen again

there would be a massive talent drain. fine you say let them fuck off. however the disproportionate impact on tax revenue would be felt by the rest of the country in lower budgets elsewhere or higher taxes

the solution isn't to artificially impose wage caps on certain industries, those industries simply will not operate here.

as one example of this, it was talked about yesterday that BNP Paribas and JP Morgan would have to move their headquarters to dublin or frankfurt to enable the firms still to operate in the single market

thats 7500 bankers it says, in phase one. thats a couple of billion (the estimate was £5bn, but lets underegg it a bit) out of the HMRC coffers straight away. 

Shouldn't you be careful to not state these things as facts. I saw a rep from JP Morgan talking about consequences on the Nick Robinson programme. He was being all tabloid as the BBC are wont to do on this issue and she didn't really respond as he hoped she would - painted a much more moderate and intelligent picture of the future.

i didn't state it as a fact i said "it was talked about yesterday that..."

it was part of the discussion yesterday, we will see what happens

[nirvana]

Anyway, I have to go to Asda & B & Q but I'm minded to recount how I deal with these things at work. Often we have a crisis and then I lean back in my chair and look for silence and then I say 'Guys, look, this is a crisis, but remember, there are no problems, only opportunities, and smile'

This always reassures and sometimes I get a few moist eyes round the room. So, come on, lets rally round the flag

[nirvana]

I love working with people of all nationalities, I have learned so much about different cultures and histories just by talking to these people. In the hospitality trade most of the staff are foreign due to the fact that the British feel it's a career 'beneath them' and believe they are better than minimum wage.

Here in Guernsey a company has to advertise a job locally for 2 weeks before they can advertise worldwide, we get zero applications from local people!

The vote is done rather than all the doom and gloom I believe the UK will become stronger for it, but that's just my opinion.

You can go on about immigration etc, but the real, real root cause has been weak governments happy to pay tucking lazy stats too much to do nothing.

As taxi refers to, the fact people won't give up their dole money unless they get £x, is the initial problem. This then creates positions for immigrants to take, and so the circle begins. This country should never have a need to let people in to pick fruit because local unemployed think it is too hard work for the money.

If we had stronger Government that MADE people work, stuff such as trade agreements, the reason we joined the EU, would probably all still be in place.

You can't just make people work.  Not unless you become almost communist in outlook.  We have never had 100% employment. 

People won't work unless they get a decent day's pay, and why should they?  That sais at the other side of the spectrum there is proper greed.  We should have a cap and collar on salaries the cap shouldn't allow people to become filthy rich that they have so much money they don't know what to do with it, the collar should be set at a level were folk working were able to lead a decent standard of life. 

Bonkers

its market forces and much as you would wish we can't just put market forces in a box and hide it uneder the bed never to be seen again

there would be a massive talent drain. fine you say let them fuck off. however the disproportionate impact on tax revenue would be felt by the rest of the country in lower budgets elsewhere or higher taxes

the solution isn't to artificially impose wage caps on certain industries, those industries simply will not operate here.

as one example of this, it was talked about yesterday that BNP Paribas and JP Morgan would have to move their headquarters to dublin or frankfurt to enable the firms still to operate in the single market

thats 7500 bankers it says, in phase one. thats a couple of billion (the estimate was £5bn, but lets underegg it a bit) out of the HMRC coffers straight away. 

Shouldn't you be careful to not state these things as facts. I saw a rep from JP Morgan talking about consequences on the Nick Robinson programme. He was being all tabloid as the BBC are wont to do on this issue and she didn't really respond as he hoped she would - painted a much more moderate and intelligent picture of the future.

i didn't state it as a fact i said "it was talked about yesterday that..."

it was part of the discussion yesterday, we will see what happens

That's only one line, was more thinking of the other speculative pish/facts which may come to pass or may be pish

[nirvana]

the tabled equivalent of pissing into the wind....

Click to see full-size image.

The more I see of this overt continued campaigning - the more I believe that by whatever mechanism it takes, my electrician friend will be right with his 'we'll never be allowed to leave' - so obviously gonna come true dat - FACT

[TightEnd]

I love working with people of all nationalities, I have learned so much about different cultures and histories just by talking to these people. In the hospitality trade most of the staff are foreign due to the fact that the British feel it's a career 'beneath them' and believe they are better than minimum wage.

Here in Guernsey a company has to advertise a job locally for 2 weeks before they can advertise worldwide, we get zero applications from local people!

The vote is done rather than all the doom and gloom I believe the UK will become stronger for it, but that's just my opinion.

You can go on about immigration etc, but the real, real root cause has been weak governments happy to pay tucking lazy stats too much to do nothing.

As taxi refers to, the fact people won't give up their dole money unless they get £x, is the initial problem. This then creates positions for immigrants to take, and so the circle begins. This country should never have a need to let people in to pick fruit because local unemployed think it is too hard work for the money.

If we had stronger Government that MADE people work, stuff such as trade agreements, the reason we joined the EU, would probably all still be in place.

You can't just make people work.  Not unless you become almost communist in outlook.  We have never had 100% employment. 

People won't work unless they get a decent day's pay, and why should they?  That sais at the other side of the spectrum there is proper greed.  We should have a cap and collar on salaries the cap shouldn't allow people to become filthy rich that they have so much money they don't know what to do with it, the collar should be set at a level were folk working were able to lead a decent standard of life. 

Bonkers

its market forces and much as you would wish we can't just put market forces in a box and hide it uneder the bed never to be seen again

there would be a massive talent drain. fine you say let them fuck off. however the disproportionate impact on tax revenue would be felt by the rest of the country in lower budgets elsewhere or higher taxes

the solution isn't to artificially impose wage caps on certain industries, those industries simply will not operate here.

as one example of this, it was talked about yesterday that BNP Paribas and JP Morgan would have to move their headquarters to dublin or frankfurt to enable the firms still to operate in the single market

thats 7500 bankers it says, in phase one. thats a couple of billion (the estimate was £5bn, but lets underegg it a bit) out of the HMRC coffers straight away. 

Shouldn't you be careful to not state these things as facts. I saw a rep from JP Morgan talking about consequences on the Nick Robinson programme. He was being all tabloid as the BBC are wont to do on this issue and she didn't really respond as he hoped she would - painted a much more moderate and intelligent picture of the future.

i didn't state it as a fact i said "it was talked about yesterday that..."

it was part of the discussion yesterday, we will see what happens

That's only one line, was more thinking of the other speculative pish/facts which may come to pass or may be pish

i thought that was the only line that was debateable! :-)

 

[doubleup]

Am new to the forum and have just found out there are areas discussing matters other than poker...

Have read through some pages of the thread but 236 is a bit much in one go, some interesting points in the pages I have read!

The movement of people both into and out of the UK, to and from the EU and the rest of the world is going to be a much more complex issue to resolve than many think in my opinion. As has been pointed out, and for several reasons, we will have to deal with EU countries as a collective when implementing policies and legislation regarding the movement of people. If we as UK citizens want the freedom to come and go with little restrictions within the EU then we will have to make concessions allowing something similar in return to the EU which reflects the founding EU principal relating to the free movement of people.

The same general premise should apply to areas of employment and migration. If we want the option to work or live in the EU or retire to other countries etc we will have to offer something similar in return which is also congruent with the other founding principles of the EU. IMO the immigration figures are still going to be a long term project if a significant decrease in the figures is the desired objective. I also cannot see how this will be achieved without also shooting ourselves in the foot and restricting the options available to UK citizens. Increasing globalisation seems to be the natural direction of progressive change and social evolution, the EU referendum decision taken by UK voters seems greatly at odds with this natural direction of development.

The world got a little bit smaller for UK citizens after last nights vote IMO (not that I voted to stay). I didn't vote as I seen so many pros and cons in both options I couldn't come to a firm conclusion.

Fair enough, but for work permits/visas etc we do not deal with them as a collective, it's individual.

'agreement with the EU – the right to work in an EU country mainly depends on the laws of that country, unless they are members of an EU national's family'

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=470

Although it looks like the EU are poking their nose in again and trying to change that too at some point in the future.

That page is effectively about post brexit Briton's working in EU countries, it doesn't support your conjecture that a free movement agreement with an individual EU country would be acceptable or possible.  In any case your plan to only accept workers from "rich countries" makes no economic sense from the point of view of the hiring employer.  The only sensible criterion (from the employer's point of view) is that there is a skill shortage.

[nirvana]

...or theyr'e cheaper to employ, skills shortage or not, which is why we have free movement in the first place

[TightEnd]

one more because i have to go to Waitrose and Hatchards

this is a fun one, just interesting (lord ashcrofts on the day "how you voted and why"poll)

Click to see full-size image.

[doubleup]

one scenario posted was as follows

UK gets recession

Boris becomes PM

Labour changes leader

General Election called

Public regrets Brexit

Labour pledges 2nd referendum.

Wins

imo Cameron resigned because firstly he realised that calling the referendum was a huge blunder and secondly he knows that there is utterly no chance of a post exit trade agreement without free movement and, clearly as a remainer, he would be viewed as being biased in negotiations.  So Johnson it has to be imo and probably no trade deal at all, with all that means.

[nirvana]

one more because i have to go to Waitrose and Hatchards

this is a fun one, just interesting (lord ashcrofts on the day "how you voted and why"poll)

Click to see full-size image.

It's pretty interesting - as I squeaked up a bit earlier in the thread - I'm a marginal and obviously, I think, considered 'out'. I think this kind of chart shows that perhaps 20-30% of people who voted out are the same. I hated the black and white nature of the campaign, the paucity of imagination/vision blah blah and unfortunately, if you allow a vote, that is pretty binary too.

Further goes to demonstrate what a terrible concept the whole thing was from start to finish and Cameron and his cohorts will be consigned to history as pretty contemptible in terms of taking a gamble on the nation's future for no reason that bears any intellectual scrutiny or has any integrity. Obviously we know why there was a vote but it doesn't change the fact that it is one of the worst political decisions and mis-judgements in modern history.

[nirvana]

one more because i have to go to Waitrose and Hatchards

Haha, too good