The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[kukushkin88]

Just watched c4 news with TM leaving Kensington amid protests and public shouting at her murderer. Not sure we have had a PM so hated before? Maybe Maggie? I am too young to remember her really

The Tories should cut their losses and get someone new in asap. Even if it's politically embarrassing bad for the parry. They need to do what's right for the country.

She's about the same level of unpopularity as Corbyn was before the election was called - but not quite so low. So I wouldn't get too carried away by how 'hated' she is. She's certainly lost a lot of respect but London and/or facebook/twitter don't represent the whole country.

That would assume bullshit pollls, misinformed by ***** like Dacre, Murdoch and the Barclays had value. People hate the government, they've decimated the public services, people will suffer for 10 years +

[JohnCharver]

Just watched c4 news with TM leaving Kensington amid protests and public shouting at her murderer. Not sure we have had a PM so hated before? Maybe Maggie? I am too young to remember her really

The Tories should cut their losses and get someone new in asap. Even if it's politically embarrassing bad for the parry. They need to do what's right for the country.

Murderer is a ridiculous thing to say obviously, and I dont really think people hate her, they hate that her and the tory party is standing in the way of the utopia they think corbyn is going to bring.

Maggie was hated for a reason, May hasnt really done anything Cameron wasnt responsible for.

[BigAdz]

I may have missed this but which party has the local MP in the Grenhall area?

Who make up the majority of the council?

[JohnCharver]

I may have missed this but which party has the local MP in the Grenhall area?

Who make up the majority of the council?

Grenfell?

Labour for the last ten days have the MP, and yeah she should have known and sorted it already.

Big tory majority on the council?

[PokerBroker]

I may have missed this but which party has the local MP in the Grenhall area?

Who make up the majority of the council?

Tory council.  Tory MP up until last week, numerous complaints made to previous MP.

Regardless the cuts on local government and the lawsthat are in place and the continued race to the bottom causing undercut after undercut come from central government.

[Doobs]

I may have missed this but which party has the local MP in the Grenhall area?

Who make up the majority of the council?

She only just got elected, so a little harsh. Though she was allegedly on the housing committee of the council and on the board of the Kensington and Chelsea Tennant Management organisation.  For more balance she claims to have campaigned on behalf of the tennants.

But as above, if you are a person who has way more responsibility than the average joe, maybe you shouldn't be pointing fingers.  

[EvilPie]

...

It will definitely be a leap into the unknown, and it might very well go tits up. But life has been too shit for too long for too many people. Time to give it a shot.

How many is too many?
How long is too long?
and for that matter, how shit is too shit?

What kind of metrics are using to come to that conclusion?

Because from what I can tell you can take any (roughly) 50 year gap at any time in history and people will be richer, healthier and less in danger of being a victim of crime. Given this has all been delivered by roughly the same version of what we have now - is it really time to give it a shot?

1.2 million people feeding themselves and their families from foodbanks.

Record numbers of people sleeping rough.

No pay rises in the public sector for 7 years.

Cuts in police and fire services.

I think that qualifies as shit.

Why the hate for food banks? Aren't they just another form of re-distributing wealth from those better off to those in need?

Would you prefer to tax people more and then give the cash to those in need for them to nip to the shops instead? How is it so vastly different? They have no food, people with money provide money for food either in the form of money or food.

If your point is that the country needs more investment to create jobs so that people can afford to buy their own food then fair enough. If it's just about taking something from the 'rich' to give it to the poor then I can't see any problems with food banks whatsoever.

People living in the streets is definitely shit though. I have no idea why loads of houses can't be built for them to live in or alternatively existing crap houses be brought up to standard for them to live in. Perhaps it's time to start compulsory purchase of crap houses left empty for ten years or so? The amount of houses that people buy on the outskirts of cities and just leave derelict waiting for the city to expand to their location must be scary.

Public sector pay rises.... Meh. They have it pretty easy compared to the real world. Stop giving the lazy ones sick pay when there's eff all wrong with them and you'd save enough to give the 'good' ones huge pay rises. The whole system needs a huge shake up probably starting with getting rid of at least 10% of them and making them work harder. Oh and before someone jumps down my neck I'm not talking about firemen and nurses working harder, we all know they're wonderful.

[titaniumbean]

+1 to evilpie, there is a lot of inherent waste because it's the public sector and a lot of budget spending to keep it for next year etc.


problem with a lot of homeless is the fact that there is a lot of dependencies and mental health issues. watching the Met program on BBC about policing London just shows you how many mental health situations the police go to regularly compared to 'nicking' bad people.

we are slashing mental health funding when it's one of our direst problems and affects so many things indirectly and causes so many problems. it's hard to remember but the police and fire/ambulance attend what is literally one of the worst days of a persons life every time they get a call out.  it's ridiculous.  reading an article about fireman it said of something like 2000 surveyed 25% had thoughts of committing suicide from the stress of the situations they faced.... much like the Army we expect so much of normal people and then don't provide the adequate after care that they will need having been through so much. no matter your training as a fireman you will never have to step over the bodies of numerous children during an exercise nothing can prepare you mentally.

one of the episodes of the Met recently has them attending 'a run of the mill daily occurrence' where a 17 year old boy is stabbed repeatedly and they arrive, administer first aid until the ambulance comes and he still dies in front of them, they are covered in blood, his friends are screaming and yup do some paperwork back on shift then off home and you have to be normal in front of your family and carry on with your life. this specific one was over a 70 quid petty fraud/theft over a non existent bike sale. reducing funding doesn't just take police off the streets, it dismantles the support network and other roles to catastrophic affect. in one of the recent articles about the fire brigade stated that over the last 10 years the number of counselors to deal with the 2500 firefighters has dropped from 14 to 2!  every single responder to the Grenfell fire had to be seen by them before they went home after the incident, 250 people to see 2 counselors. they can't have got long. then back to work guys don't have flashbacks or suffer a drop in home life quality. 250 doesn't cover the telephone operators who were on the line to people whilst they burnt to death or the myriad of other supporting cast that keeps the services running.


but yeh, get stuffed.......

[bagel]

regarding the last part of evilpies last post about the 10% of people, i could not agree more.

i work my nuts off , mostly 50 hours + for a very low wage (£11 per hour), my local pub closed down so i now frequent the local  weatherspoons simply because i live across the road from it.it is full by 10 am every single morning. i speak to quite a few of the regulars from time to time, many of them are receiving "dla" , disability living allowance.the reason that the doctor has deemed them unfit to work, which triggers the state payment, is because they are alcoholics. so they are paid far more than average joe who is out of work and they sit in the pub all day getting pissed.this goes on in every single town city nationwide. when on "dla" you do not have to visit jobcentre weekly and prove what you are doing to find a job.i know people that have been on it years because it is a weekly payment, plus rent paid, which when totted up is not far off, if not more than people working a full week on a low wage. yes they are wasting their lives and eventually will regret doing so, but i struggle to blame some of these people for taking that route, i blame the system that allows them to.reading about so many people that for one reason or another genuinely are too ill to work, while hundreds of thousands of people blatantly abuse the system really makes me struggle to have any faith in whichever bunch of mainly priviliged fuckwits that get voted in to make any difference at all to a huge number of the average man in the street.

[kukushkin88]

Did you think they ever thought  what they were looking for?

[maldini32]

Devil's advocate here. Say this happened 3 days before the general election, do Labour win?

[RickBFA]

I may have missed this but which party has the local MP in the Grenhall area?

Who make up the majority of the council?

She only just got elected, so a little harsh. Though she was allegedly on the housing committee of the council and on the board of the Kensington and Chelsea Tennant Management organisation.  For more balance she claims to have campaigned on behalf of the tennants.

But as above, if you are a person who has way more responsibility than the average joe, maybe you shouldn't be pointing fingers.  

Emotions are running high on these issues. Blaming the current party in power is too simplistic.

It seems to me that a number of factors came together at one time which caused this horrific outcome.

I'm not saying politicians/councils/authorities are blameless but the reality is this could have easily happened under a Blair Government in 2005 or a Brown Government in 2009.

Were the safety/building regulations any better then?

The key is making sure this never happens again.

[buffyslayer1]

I may have missed this but which party has the local MP in the Grenhall area?

Who make up the majority of the council?

She only just got elected, so a little harsh. Though she was allegedly on the housing committee of the council and on the board of the Kensington and Chelsea Tennant Management organisation.  For more balance she claims to have campaigned on behalf of the tennants.

But as above, if you are a person who has way more responsibility than the average joe, maybe you shouldn't be pointing fingers.  

Emotions are running high on these issues. Blaming the current party in power is too simplistic.

It seems to me that a number of factors came together at one time which caused this horrific outcome.

I'm not saying politicians/councils/authorities are blameless but the reality is this could have easily happened under a Blair Government in 2005 or a Brown Government in 2009.

Were the safety/building regulations any better then?

The key is making sure this never happens again.

To compare to governments going back 20+ years is not very fruitful. Maybe it could have happened in a previous time but it didn't.

If anyone is to blame it's the council not necessarily the government. Governments don't have a lot of control over local projects.

The anger I can understand though. This tradegy is becoming a focal point and highlighting what's happened to some of the poorest areas in the UK over the last 10 years.
 You have a 8 mil refurb to make it look pretty in upmarket Kensington in a time of suplosed austerity.
It appears the cladding could be directly responsible for the perfect storm that meant it got so out of control so quickly. Done on the cheap it seems to save money.

You have people who have raised fire safety for a number of years being ignored about the concern. Bo jo telling officials to get stuffed at the London assembly when they raise issues of cuts to the fire service.

Post tradegy the governments response has been terrible, Which is why the anger is being directed there. TM didn't have the decency to face the public. The survivors are still sleeping on floors, others that are in similar blocks of flats have no clarity on how safe their homes are. Damian green just said they won'tbe respectively fitting sprinklers to tower blocks.

All this comes just days after being told the age of austerity is over. Essentially telling us all (which a lot knew) that austerity was a political choice not an economic necessity.

No wonder people are so incredibly angry about this they have every right to be.

[buffyslayer1]

For those interested in polling methods. Here is a blog from the people that did the you gov poll which a week before the election predicted a hung parliament

http://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2017/06-June-2017/LSE-Pollsters-win-the-day?utm_campaign=LSE+home&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_content=1497343817

Seems it was quite accurate even predicted that Canterbury would swing to Labour.

[DaveShoelace]

Devil's advocate here. Say this happened 3 days before the general election, do Labour win?

Been thinking about this a lot, and I think yes, 100%. We'll never know of course, but I think this tragedy means we will NOT have another general election anytime soon.