The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Woodsey]

In 2017, there were 28 cases of alleged in-person voter fraud throughout the whole country.

Yesterday, the government trialled voter ID in five Councils to deal with this non-existent problem. In very limited observations, Democracy Volunteers observed almost 2% of voters who attempted to vote being turned away for not having ID, not including those who turned around themselves when they saw signs spelling out the requirement or those who were put off from trying at all. One case of attempted personation was observed.

If the Conservatives are planning to impose voter ID throughout the country in order to suppress poorer people voting for other parties, the trial was a significant success.

https://democracyvolunteersdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/voter-id-pilot-areas-special-report-2018.pdf

You need ID for so many things these days.  Anyone who can’t bring the ID is stupid or lazy.  Why do you seem to imply that it is only the poor who are morons?  Surely this impacts f*ckwits of all standings?

That isn't even where the argument is. There is a legitimate debate about whether everyone should carry ID, but whether the poor are disproportionately affected isn't in question. It is well-established from other countries that it is the poor who are affected by this. Check out Black disenfranchisement in the US for starters.

Why does it impact anyone unless they are thick or lazy?  What person on the electoral role doesn’t have 2 items of a bank card/council tax letter/bank statement/driving licence/poll card/utility bill.  Idiocy doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.

It’s always somebody else’s fault.....

Yes, they are more disorganised/lazy/undeserving than us. Therefore they should not be allowed to vote?

You are concerned with how they should be. No doubt they should be better organised, etc, but we need to deal with how they are, not how they should be. These are people who have made the effort to go and vote, and we want to create artificial barriers to stop them from doing so. The fact is that there are people who don't have the documents. There are plenty who do but don't carry them, or forgot to bring them. Why should people have to go home again to get random documents and make a second journey? Or maybe not get to come back at all?

It is achieving nothing.  There is no problem with personation. It isn't even a sledgehammer to crack a nut, cos there is no nut. It is just a blatant attempt to prevent people from voting. In the absence of a personation problem, anyone who supports this restriction doesn't give two hoots about democracy and is only interested in improving the position of right-wing parties by underhand methods.

Sorry but having read the list of possible things they could have used for ID (a very wide range of things) I’ve decided you are talking a load of bollox and just using it as an excuse to have a whine about the Tories. Had Labour implemented this you wouldn’t have a word to say about it. People need to be responsible for their own shit and not blame others.

What’s on your whine list about the Tories tomorrow?

[MintTrav]

In 2017, there were 28 cases of alleged in-person voter fraud throughout the whole country.

Yesterday, the government trialled voter ID in five Councils to deal with this non-existent problem. In very limited observations, Democracy Volunteers observed almost 2% of voters who attempted to vote being turned away for not having ID, not including those who turned around themselves when they saw signs spelling out the requirement or those who were put off from trying at all. One case of attempted personation was observed.

If the Conservatives are planning to impose voter ID throughout the country in order to suppress poorer people voting for other parties, the trial was a significant success.

https://democracyvolunteersdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/voter-id-pilot-areas-special-report-2018.pdf

You need ID for so many things these days.  Anyone who can’t bring the ID is stupid or lazy.  Why do you seem to imply that it is only the poor who are morons?  Surely this impacts f*ckwits of all standings?

That isn't even where the argument is. There is a legitimate debate about whether everyone should carry ID, but whether the poor are disproportionately affected isn't in question. It is well-established from other countries that it is the poor who are affected by this. Check out Black disenfranchisement in the US for starters.

Why does it impact anyone unless they are thick or lazy?  What person on the electoral role doesn’t have 2 items of a bank card/council tax letter/bank statement/driving licence/poll card/utility bill.  Idiocy doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.

It’s always somebody else’s fault.....

Yes, they are more disorganised/lazy/undeserving than us. Therefore they should not be allowed to vote?

You are concerned with how they should be. No doubt they should be better organised, etc, but we need to deal with how they are, not how they should be. These are people who have made the effort to go and vote, and we want to create artificial barriers to stop them from doing so. The fact is that there are people who don't have the documents. There are plenty who do but don't carry them, or forgot to bring them. Why should people have to go home again to get random documents and make a second journey? Or maybe not get to come back at all?

It is achieving nothing.  There is no problem with personation. It isn't even a sledgehammer to crack a nut, cos there is no nut. It is just a blatant attempt to prevent people from voting. In the absence of a personation problem, anyone who supports this restriction doesn't give two hoots about democracy and is only interested in improving the position of right-wing parties by underhand methods.

Sorry but having read the list of possible things they could have used for ID (a very wide range of things) I’ve decided you are talking a load of bollox and just using it as an excuse to have a whine about the Tories. Had Labour implemented this you wouldn’t have a word to say about it. People need to be responsible for their own shit and not blame others.

What’s on your whine list about the Tories tomorrow?

This is an important issue and you are pretending not to understand the implications. But you don't care about democracy, do you? All you are interested in is the right result. Go on - admit it.

[RickBFA]

In 2017, there were 28 cases of alleged in-person voter fraud throughout the whole country.

Yesterday, the government trialled voter ID in five Councils to deal with this non-existent problem. In very limited observations, Democracy Volunteers observed almost 2% of voters who attempted to vote being turned away for not having ID, not including those who turned around themselves when they saw signs spelling out the requirement or those who were put off from trying at all. One case of attempted personation was observed.

If the Conservatives are planning to impose voter ID throughout the country in order to suppress poorer people voting for other parties, the trial was a significant success.

https://democracyvolunteersdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/voter-id-pilot-areas-special-report-2018.pdf

You need ID for so many things these days.  Anyone who can’t bring the ID is stupid or lazy.  Why do you seem to imply that it is only the poor who are morons?  Surely this impacts f*ckwits of all standings?

That isn't even where the argument is. There is a legitimate debate about whether everyone should carry ID, but whether the poor are disproportionately affected isn't in question. It is well-established from other countries that it is the poor who are affected by this. Check out Black disenfranchisement in the US for starters.

Why does it impact anyone unless they are thick or lazy?  What person on the electoral role doesn’t have 2 items of a bank card/council tax letter/bank statement/driving licence/poll card/utility bill.  Idiocy doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.

It’s always somebody else’s fault.....

Yes, they are more disorganised/lazy/undeserving than us. Therefore they should not be allowed to vote?

You are concerned with how they should be. No doubt they should be better organised, etc, but we need to deal with how they are, not how they should be. These are people who have made the effort to go and vote, and we want to create artificial barriers to stop them from doing so. The fact is that there are people who don't have the documents. There are plenty who do but don't carry them, or forgot to bring them. Why should people have to go home again to get random documents and make a second journey? Or maybe not get to come back at all?

It is achieving nothing.  There is no problem with personation. It isn't even a sledgehammer to crack a nut, cos there is no nut. It is just a blatant attempt to prevent people from voting. In the absence of a personation problem, anyone who supports this restriction doesn't give two hoots about democracy and is only interested in improving the position of right-wing parties by underhand methods.

Sorry but having read the list of possible things they could have used for ID (a very wide range of things) I’ve decided you are talking a load of bollox and just using it as an excuse to have a whine about the Tories. Had Labour implemented this you wouldn’t have a word to say about it. People need to be responsible for their own shit and not blame others.

What’s on your whine list about the Tories tomorrow?

Well the sun is shining, it’s a bank holiday weekend, Kush being on the Stella must be odds on.

I’m sure there’s a belter due any time  

[Woodsey]

In 2017, there were 28 cases of alleged in-person voter fraud throughout the whole country.

Yesterday, the government trialled voter ID in five Councils to deal with this non-existent problem. In very limited observations, Democracy Volunteers observed almost 2% of voters who attempted to vote being turned away for not having ID, not including those who turned around themselves when they saw signs spelling out the requirement or those who were put off from trying at all. One case of attempted personation was observed.

If the Conservatives are planning to impose voter ID throughout the country in order to suppress poorer people voting for other parties, the trial was a significant success.

https://democracyvolunteersdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/voter-id-pilot-areas-special-report-2018.pdf

You need ID for so many things these days.  Anyone who can’t bring the ID is stupid or lazy.  Why do you seem to imply that it is only the poor who are morons?  Surely this impacts f*ckwits of all standings?

That isn't even where the argument is. There is a legitimate debate about whether everyone should carry ID, but whether the poor are disproportionately affected isn't in question. It is well-established from other countries that it is the poor who are affected by this. Check out Black disenfranchisement in the US for starters.

Why does it impact anyone unless they are thick or lazy?  What person on the electoral role doesn’t have 2 items of a bank card/council tax letter/bank statement/driving licence/poll card/utility bill.  Idiocy doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.

It’s always somebody else’s fault.....

Yes, they are more disorganised/lazy/undeserving than us. Therefore they should not be allowed to vote?

You are concerned with how they should be. No doubt they should be better organised, etc, but we need to deal with how they are, not how they should be. These are people who have made the effort to go and vote, and we want to create artificial barriers to stop them from doing so. The fact is that there are people who don't have the documents. There are plenty who do but don't carry them, or forgot to bring them. Why should people have to go home again to get random documents and make a second journey? Or maybe not get to come back at all?

It is achieving nothing.  There is no problem with personation. It isn't even a sledgehammer to crack a nut, cos there is no nut. It is just a blatant attempt to prevent people from voting. In the absence of a personation problem, anyone who supports this restriction doesn't give two hoots about democracy and is only interested in improving the position of right-wing parties by underhand methods.

Sorry but having read the list of possible things they could have used for ID (a very wide range of things) I’ve decided you are talking a load of bollox and just using it as an excuse to have a whine about the Tories. Had Labour implemented this you wouldn’t have a word to say about it. People need to be responsible for their own shit and not blame others.

What’s on your whine list about the Tories tomorrow?

This is an important issue and you are pretending not to understand the implications. But you don't care about democracy, do you? All you are interested in is the right result. Go on - admit it.

Not in this life or the next, if people can’t produce any of the wide range of possible ID they can use then tough shit. I also stand by my comment if labour had done this you would have fk all to say, it’s just a whine......

[Doobs]

In 2017, there were 28 cases of alleged in-person voter fraud throughout the whole country.

Yesterday, the government trialled voter ID in five Councils to deal with this non-existent problem. In very limited observations, Democracy Volunteers observed almost 2% of voters who attempted to vote being turned away for not having ID, not including those who turned around themselves when they saw signs spelling out the requirement or those who were put off from trying at all. One case of attempted personation was observed.

If the Conservatives are planning to impose voter ID throughout the country in order to suppress poorer people voting for other parties, the trial was a significant success.

https://democracyvolunteersdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/voter-id-pilot-areas-special-report-2018.pdf

You need ID for so many things these days.  Anyone who can’t bring the ID is stupid or lazy.  Why do you seem to imply that it is only the poor who are morons?  Surely this impacts f*ckwits of all standings?

That isn't even where the argument is. There is a legitimate debate about whether everyone should carry ID, but whether the poor are disproportionately affected isn't in question. It is well-established from other countries that it is the poor who are affected by this. Check out Black disenfranchisement in the US for starters.

Why does it impact anyone unless they are thick or lazy?  What person on the electoral role doesn’t have 2 items of a bank card/council tax letter/bank statement/driving licence/poll card/utility bill.  Idiocy doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.

It’s always somebody else’s fault.....

Yes, they are more disorganised/lazy/undeserving than us. Therefore they should not be allowed to vote?

You are concerned with how they should be. No doubt they should be better organised, etc, but we need to deal with how they are, not how they should be. These are people who have made the effort to go and vote, and we want to create artificial barriers to stop them from doing so. The fact is that there are people who don't have the documents. There are plenty who do but don't carry them, or forgot to bring them. Why should people have to go home again to get random documents and make a second journey? Or maybe not get to come back at all?

It is achieving nothing.  There is no problem with personation. It isn't even a sledgehammer to crack a nut, cos there is no nut. It is just a blatant attempt to prevent people from voting. In the absence of a personation problem, anyone who supports this restriction doesn't give two hoots about democracy and is only interested in improving the position of right-wing parties by underhand methods.

Sorry but having read the list of possible things they could have used for ID (a very wide range of things) I’ve decided you are talking a load of bollox and just using it as an excuse to have a whine about the Tories. Had Labour implemented this you wouldn’t have a word to say about it. People need to be responsible for their own shit and not blame others.

What’s on your whine list about the Tories tomorrow?

This is an important issue and you are pretending not to understand the implications. But you don't care about democracy, do you? All you are interested in is the right result. Go on - admit it.

Not in this life or the next, if people can’t produce any of the wide range of possible ID they can use then tough shit. I also stand by my comment if labour had done this you would have fk all to say, it’s just a whine......

It is a serious issue.  Denying 2% of the population a vote when margins ard so tight for no good reasion is a pretty shitty thing to do.  Poor people have less sources of ID than rich, so it isn't straightforward.   There aren't many with no access to bank accounts, but dare say not many of them vote Conservative.

[Woodsey]

In 2017, there were 28 cases of alleged in-person voter fraud throughout the whole country.

Yesterday, the government trialled voter ID in five Councils to deal with this non-existent problem. In very limited observations, Democracy Volunteers observed almost 2% of voters who attempted to vote being turned away for not having ID, not including those who turned around themselves when they saw signs spelling out the requirement or those who were put off from trying at all. One case of attempted personation was observed.

If the Conservatives are planning to impose voter ID throughout the country in order to suppress poorer people voting for other parties, the trial was a significant success.

https://democracyvolunteersdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/voter-id-pilot-areas-special-report-2018.pdf

You need ID for so many things these days.  Anyone who can’t bring the ID is stupid or lazy.  Why do you seem to imply that it is only the poor who are morons?  Surely this impacts f*ckwits of all standings?

That isn't even where the argument is. There is a legitimate debate about whether everyone should carry ID, but whether the poor are disproportionately affected isn't in question. It is well-established from other countries that it is the poor who are affected by this. Check out Black disenfranchisement in the US for starters.

Why does it impact anyone unless they are thick or lazy?  What person on the electoral role doesn’t have 2 items of a bank card/council tax letter/bank statement/driving licence/poll card/utility bill.  Idiocy doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.

It’s always somebody else’s fault.....

Yes, they are more disorganised/lazy/undeserving than us. Therefore they should not be allowed to vote?

You are concerned with how they should be. No doubt they should be better organised, etc, but we need to deal with how they are, not how they should be. These are people who have made the effort to go and vote, and we want to create artificial barriers to stop them from doing so. The fact is that there are people who don't have the documents. There are plenty who do but don't carry them, or forgot to bring them. Why should people have to go home again to get random documents and make a second journey? Or maybe not get to come back at all?

It is achieving nothing.  There is no problem with personation. It isn't even a sledgehammer to crack a nut, cos there is no nut. It is just a blatant attempt to prevent people from voting. In the absence of a personation problem, anyone who supports this restriction doesn't give two hoots about democracy and is only interested in improving the position of right-wing parties by underhand methods.

Sorry but having read the list of possible things they could have used for ID (a very wide range of things) I’ve decided you are talking a load of bollox and just using it as an excuse to have a whine about the Tories. Had Labour implemented this you wouldn’t have a word to say about it. People need to be responsible for their own shit and not blame others.

What’s on your whine list about the Tories tomorrow?

This is an important issue and you are pretending not to understand the implications. But you don't care about democracy, do you? All you are interested in is the right result. Go on - admit it.

Not in this life or the next, if people can’t produce any of the wide range of possible ID they can use then tough shit. I also stand by my comment if labour had done this you would have fk all to say, it’s just a whine......

It is a serious issue.  Denying 2% of the population a vote when margins ard so tight for no good reasion is a pretty shitty thing to do.  Poor people have less sources of ID than rich, so it isn't straightforward.   There aren't many with no access to bank accounts, but dare say not many of them vote Conservative.

How do you know many of them don’t vote Tory? It’s well known Brexit has changed many people’s views, especially many traditional labour voters that are from poor backgrounds, as many remainers like to say the so called ‘thicko’s’.

Also they don’t know how many people have actually committed fraud and got away with it, it could be a significant number for all we know.

Also if people that want to vote can’t find a way of getting some acceptable ID before the next GE then tough shit imo, it’s not exactly hard and nobodys fault but their own, we are all adults that are responsible for our own shit.....

Still think it’s just a whine and labour voters would have fk all to say if labour had brought it in.

[Woodsey]

one of the first things that will happen is I'll apply for Irish (birth) or Czech (residence) citizenship to remain in the EU.

I think the Brexit debate will focus (on the No side) almost entirely on immigration. The UKIP 4m vote will grow now that there's no danger/thought of tactical voting based solely on immigration.

a lot of morons will vote OUT on the basis of ignorance and prejudice, a few smart people will vote OUT on the hope (rather than expectation) that e.g. the economy could be better off under some seemingly unlikely services post brexit when most models would have a permanent hit to GDP of varying degrees.

i'm pro-european but also pro-eu reform. I think there's work to be done there. I don't see how anyone can think we can leave and expect to reneg trade agreements which don't bind us to EU rules anyway without having a voice to draft.

we already have a tonne of opt-ins, btw, and europe in general is way more felxible with us tahan they are with others.

let's face it, we've too much skin in the game to brexit. Doing so would crucify our futures.

Just clicked the front page by accident. Whatever happened to this mouthpiece? He was an EXPERT on just about every subject 

[nirvana]

In 2017, there were 28 cases of alleged in-person voter fraud throughout the whole country.

Yesterday, the government trialled voter ID in five Councils to deal with this non-existent problem. In very limited observations, Democracy Volunteers observed almost 2% of voters who attempted to vote being turned away for not having ID, not including those who turned around themselves when they saw signs spelling out the requirement or those who were put off from trying at all. One case of attempted personation was observed.

If the Conservatives are planning to impose voter ID throughout the country in order to suppress poorer people voting for other parties, the trial was a significant success.

https://democracyvolunteersdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/voter-id-pilot-areas-special-report-2018.pdf

You need ID for so many things these days.  Anyone who can’t bring the ID is stupid or lazy.  Why do you seem to imply that it is only the poor who are morons?  Surely this impacts f*ckwits of all standings?

That isn't even where the argument is. There is a legitimate debate about whether everyone should carry ID, but whether the poor are disproportionately affected isn't in question. It is well-established from other countries that it is the poor who are affected by this. Check out Black disenfranchisement in the US for starters.

Why does it impact anyone unless they are thick or lazy?  What person on the electoral role doesn’t have 2 items of a bank card/council tax letter/bank statement/driving licence/poll card/utility bill.  Idiocy doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.

It’s always somebody else’s fault.....

Yes, they are more disorganised/lazy/undeserving than us. Therefore they should not be allowed to vote?

You are concerned with how they should be. No doubt they should be better organised, etc, but we need to deal with how they are, not how they should be. These are people who have made the effort to go and vote, and we want to create artificial barriers to stop them from doing so. The fact is that there are people who don't have the documents. There are plenty who do but don't carry them, or forgot to bring them. Why should people have to go home again to get random documents and make a second journey? Or maybe not get to come back at all?

It is achieving nothing.  There is no problem with personation. It isn't even a sledgehammer to crack a nut, cos there is no nut. It is just a blatant attempt to prevent people from voting. In the absence of a personation problem, anyone who supports this restriction doesn't give two hoots about democracy and is only interested in improving the position of right-wing parties by underhand methods.

Sorry but having read the list of possible things they could have used for ID (a very wide range of things) I’ve decided you are talking a load of bollox and just using it as an excuse to have a whine about the Tories. Had Labour implemented this you wouldn’t have a word to say about it. People need to be responsible for their own shit and not blame others.

What’s on your whine list about the Tories tomorrow?

This is an important issue and you are pretending not to understand the implications. But you don't care about democracy, do you? All you are interested in is the right result. Go on - admit it.

Not in this life or the next, if people can’t produce any of the wide range of possible ID they can use then tough shit. I also stand by my comment if labour had done this you would have fk all to say, it’s just a whine......

It is a serious issue.  Denying 2% of the population a vote when margins ard so tight for no good reasion is a pretty shitty thing to do.  Poor people have less sources of ID than rich, so it isn't straightforward.   There aren't many with no access to bank accounts, but dare say not many of them vote Conservative.

Tbf, anyone who doesn't have a bank account is very unlikely to vote at all I guess and even if they did want to there's a good chance they're a racist thicko as likely to vote UKIP/ Tory as Labour. Hard to know who to vote for when you're a thicko these days.

This all detracts a bit from the central point though about motivations and if the motivations were to stop opposition voters voting then it's pernicious - not sure you can draw parallels with US black disenfranchisment though, it's not so clear cut here in terms of how someone who is poor will vote.. especially since Brexit fked all the traditional dividing lines up.

[MintTrav]

In 2017, there were 28 cases of alleged in-person voter fraud throughout the whole country.

Yesterday, the government trialled voter ID in five Councils to deal with this non-existent problem. In very limited observations, Democracy Volunteers observed almost 2% of voters who attempted to vote being turned away for not having ID, not including those who turned around themselves when they saw signs spelling out the requirement or those who were put off from trying at all. One case of attempted personation was observed.

If the Conservatives are planning to impose voter ID throughout the country in order to suppress poorer people voting for other parties, the trial was a significant success.

https://democracyvolunteersdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/voter-id-pilot-areas-special-report-2018.pdf

You need ID for so many things these days.  Anyone who can’t bring the ID is stupid or lazy.  Why do you seem to imply that it is only the poor who are morons?  Surely this impacts f*ckwits of all standings?

That isn't even where the argument is. There is a legitimate debate about whether everyone should carry ID, but whether the poor are disproportionately affected isn't in question. It is well-established from other countries that it is the poor who are affected by this. Check out Black disenfranchisement in the US for starters.

Why does it impact anyone unless they are thick or lazy?  What person on the electoral role doesn’t have 2 items of a bank card/council tax letter/bank statement/driving licence/poll card/utility bill.  Idiocy doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.

It’s always somebody else’s fault.....

Yes, they are more disorganised/lazy/undeserving than us. Therefore they should not be allowed to vote?

You are concerned with how they should be. No doubt they should be better organised, etc, but we need to deal with how they are, not how they should be. These are people who have made the effort to go and vote, and we want to create artificial barriers to stop them from doing so. The fact is that there are people who don't have the documents. There are plenty who do but don't carry them, or forgot to bring them. Why should people have to go home again to get random documents and make a second journey? Or maybe not get to come back at all?

It is achieving nothing.  There is no problem with personation. It isn't even a sledgehammer to crack a nut, cos there is no nut. It is just a blatant attempt to prevent people from voting. In the absence of a personation problem, anyone who supports this restriction doesn't give two hoots about democracy and is only interested in improving the position of right-wing parties by underhand methods.

Sorry but having read the list of possible things they could have used for ID (a very wide range of things) I’ve decided you are talking a load of bollox and just using it as an excuse to have a whine about the Tories. Had Labour implemented this you wouldn’t have a word to say about it. People need to be responsible for their own shit and not blame others.

What’s on your whine list about the Tories tomorrow?

This is an important issue and you are pretending not to understand the implications. But you don't care about democracy, do you? All you are interested in is the right result. Go on - admit it.

Not in this life or the next, if people can’t produce any of the wide range of possible ID they can use then tough shit. I also stand by my comment if labour had done this you would have fk all to say, it’s just a whine......

It is a serious issue.  Denying 2% of the population a vote when margins ard so tight for no good reasion is a pretty shitty thing to do.  Poor people have less sources of ID than rich, so it isn't straightforward.   There aren't many with no access to bank accounts, but dare say not many of them vote Conservative.

Tbf, anyone who doesn't have a bank account is very unlikely to vote at all I guess and even if they did want to there's a good chance they're a racist thicko as likely to vote UKIP/ Tory as Labour. Hard to know who to vote for when you're a thicko these days.

This all detracts a bit from the central point though about motivations and if the motivations were to stop opposition voters voting then it's pernicious - not sure you can draw parallels with US black disenfranchisment though, it's not so clear cut here in terms of how someone who is poor will vote.. especially since Brexit fked all the traditional dividing lines up.

Thanks Woodsey, I knew you'd admit it. I'd say it's unlikely Labour would introduce it because, funnily enough, it seems to be right-wing parties that do so. I wonder why that is.

[RED-DOG]

In 2017, there were 28 cases of alleged in-person voter fraud throughout the whole country.

Yesterday, the government trialled voter ID in five Councils to deal with this non-existent problem. In very limited observations, Democracy Volunteers observed almost 2% of voters who attempted to vote being turned away for not having ID, not including those who turned around themselves when they saw signs spelling out the requirement or those who were put off from trying at all. One case of attempted personation was observed.

If the Conservatives are planning to impose voter ID throughout the country in order to suppress poorer people voting for other parties, the trial was a significant success.

https://democracyvolunteersdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/voter-id-pilot-areas-special-report-2018.pdf

You need ID for so many things these days.  Anyone who can’t bring the ID is stupid or lazy.  Why do you seem to imply that it is only the poor who are morons?  Surely this impacts f*ckwits of all standings?

That isn't even where the argument is. There is a legitimate debate about whether everyone should carry ID, but whether the poor are disproportionately affected isn't in question. It is well-established from other countries that it is the poor who are affected by this. Check out Black disenfranchisement in the US for starters.

Why does it impact anyone unless they are thick or lazy?  What person on the electoral role doesn’t have 2 items of a bank card/council tax letter/bank statement/driving licence/poll card/utility bill.  Idiocy doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.

It’s always somebody else’s fault.....

So is it Woodsey's fault or somebody else's?  

[Woodsey]

In 2017, there were 28 cases of alleged in-person voter fraud throughout the whole country.

Yesterday, the government trialled voter ID in five Councils to deal with this non-existent problem. In very limited observations, Democracy Volunteers observed almost 2% of voters who attempted to vote being turned away for not having ID, not including those who turned around themselves when they saw signs spelling out the requirement or those who were put off from trying at all. One case of attempted personation was observed.

If the Conservatives are planning to impose voter ID throughout the country in order to suppress poorer people voting for other parties, the trial was a significant success.

https://democracyvolunteersdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/voter-id-pilot-areas-special-report-2018.pdf

You need ID for so many things these days.  Anyone who can’t bring the ID is stupid or lazy.  Why do you seem to imply that it is only the poor who are morons?  Surely this impacts f*ckwits of all standings?

That isn't even where the argument is. There is a legitimate debate about whether everyone should carry ID, but whether the poor are disproportionately affected isn't in question. It is well-established from other countries that it is the poor who are affected by this. Check out Black disenfranchisement in the US for starters.

Why does it impact anyone unless they are thick or lazy?  What person on the electoral role doesn’t have 2 items of a bank card/council tax letter/bank statement/driving licence/poll card/utility bill.  Idiocy doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.

It’s always somebody else’s fault.....

Yes, they are more disorganised/lazy/undeserving than us. Therefore they should not be allowed to vote?

You are concerned with how they should be. No doubt they should be better organised, etc, but we need to deal with how they are, not how they should be. These are people who have made the effort to go and vote, and we want to create artificial barriers to stop them from doing so. The fact is that there are people who don't have the documents. There are plenty who do but don't carry them, or forgot to bring them. Why should people have to go home again to get random documents and make a second journey? Or maybe not get to come back at all?

It is achieving nothing.  There is no problem with personation. It isn't even a sledgehammer to crack a nut, cos there is no nut. It is just a blatant attempt to prevent people from voting. In the absence of a personation problem, anyone who supports this restriction doesn't give two hoots about democracy and is only interested in improving the position of right-wing parties by underhand methods.

Sorry but having read the list of possible things they could have used for ID (a very wide range of things) I’ve decided you are talking a load of bollox and just using it as an excuse to have a whine about the Tories. Had Labour implemented this you wouldn’t have a word to say about it. People need to be responsible for their own shit and not blame others.

What’s on your whine list about the Tories tomorrow?

This is an important issue and you are pretending not to understand the implications. But you don't care about democracy, do you? All you are interested in is the right result. Go on - admit it.

Not in this life or the next, if people can’t produce any of the wide range of possible ID they can use then tough shit. I also stand by my comment if labour had done this you would have fk all to say, it’s just a whine......

It is a serious issue.  Denying 2% of the population a vote when margins ard so tight for no good reasion is a pretty shitty thing to do.  Poor people have less sources of ID than rich, so it isn't straightforward.   There aren't many with no access to bank accounts, but dare say not many of them vote Conservative.

Tbf, anyone who doesn't have a bank account is very unlikely to vote at all I guess and even if they did want to there's a good chance they're a racist thicko as likely to vote UKIP/ Tory as Labour. Hard to know who to vote for when you're a thicko these days.

This all detracts a bit from the central point though about motivations and if the motivations were to stop opposition voters voting then it's pernicious - not sure you can draw parallels with US black disenfranchisment though, it's not so clear cut here in terms of how someone who is poor will vote.. especially since Brexit fked all the traditional dividing lines up.

Thanks Woodsey, I knew you'd admit it. I'd say it's unlikely Labour would introduce it because, funnily enough, it seems to be right-wing parties that do so. I wonder why that is.

I didn’t admit anything so you’re talking more bollox, and you don’t know if labour would introduce it or not so that’s even more bollox again.

As I said it’s just a whine, and if labour did introduce it 100% you would have fk all to say.....

[MintTrav]

In 2017, there were 28 cases of alleged in-person voter fraud throughout the whole country.

Yesterday, the government trialled voter ID in five Councils to deal with this non-existent problem. In very limited observations, Democracy Volunteers observed almost 2% of voters who attempted to vote being turned away for not having ID, not including those who turned around themselves when they saw signs spelling out the requirement or those who were put off from trying at all. One case of attempted personation was observed.

If the Conservatives are planning to impose voter ID throughout the country in order to suppress poorer people voting for other parties, the trial was a significant success.

https://democracyvolunteersdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/voter-id-pilot-areas-special-report-2018.pdf

You need ID for so many things these days.  Anyone who can’t bring the ID is stupid or lazy.  Why do you seem to imply that it is only the poor who are morons?  Surely this impacts f*ckwits of all standings?

That isn't even where the argument is. There is a legitimate debate about whether everyone should carry ID, but whether the poor are disproportionately affected isn't in question. It is well-established from other countries that it is the poor who are affected by this. Check out Black disenfranchisement in the US for starters.

Why does it impact anyone unless they are thick or lazy?  What person on the electoral role doesn’t have 2 items of a bank card/council tax letter/bank statement/driving licence/poll card/utility bill.  Idiocy doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.

It’s always somebody else’s fault.....

Yes, they are more disorganised/lazy/undeserving than us. Therefore they should not be allowed to vote?

You are concerned with how they should be. No doubt they should be better organised, etc, but we need to deal with how they are, not how they should be. These are people who have made the effort to go and vote, and we want to create artificial barriers to stop them from doing so. The fact is that there are people who don't have the documents. There are plenty who do but don't carry them, or forgot to bring them. Why should people have to go home again to get random documents and make a second journey? Or maybe not get to come back at all?

It is achieving nothing.  There is no problem with personation. It isn't even a sledgehammer to crack a nut, cos there is no nut. It is just a blatant attempt to prevent people from voting. In the absence of a personation problem, anyone who supports this restriction doesn't give two hoots about democracy and is only interested in improving the position of right-wing parties by underhand methods.

Sorry but having read the list of possible things they could have used for ID (a very wide range of things) I’ve decided you are talking a load of bollox and just using it as an excuse to have a whine about the Tories. Had Labour implemented this you wouldn’t have a word to say about it. People need to be responsible for their own shit and not blame others.

What’s on your whine list about the Tories tomorrow?

This is an important issue and you are pretending not to understand the implications. But you don't care about democracy, do you? All you are interested in is the right result. Go on - admit it.

Not in this life or the next, if people can’t produce any of the wide range of possible ID they can use then tough shit. I also stand by my comment if labour had done this you would have fk all to say, it’s just a whine......

It is a serious issue.  Denying 2% of the population a vote when margins ard so tight for no good reasion is a pretty shitty thing to do.  Poor people have less sources of ID than rich, so it isn't straightforward.   There aren't many with no access to bank accounts, but dare say not many of them vote Conservative.

Tbf, anyone who doesn't have a bank account is very unlikely to vote at all I guess and even if they did want to there's a good chance they're a racist thicko as likely to vote UKIP/ Tory as Labour. Hard to know who to vote for when you're a thicko these days.

This all detracts a bit from the central point though about motivations and if the motivations were to stop opposition voters voting then it's pernicious - not sure you can draw parallels with US black disenfranchisment though, it's not so clear cut here in terms of how someone who is poor will vote.. especially since Brexit fked all the traditional dividing lines up.

Thanks Woodsey, I knew you'd admit it. I'd say it's unlikely Labour would introduce it because, funnily enough, it seems to be right-wing parties that do so. I wonder why that is.

I didn’t admit anything so you’re talking more bollox, and you don’t know if labour would introduce it or not so you that’s even more bollox again.

As I said it’s just a whine, and if labour did introduce it 100% you would have fk all to say.....

You believe in democracy? Great. If that's the case, you'll obviously agree that there should be a second Referendum, not just on the terms, but on whether to leave or stay.

[Woodsey]

In 2017, there were 28 cases of alleged in-person voter fraud throughout the whole country.

Yesterday, the government trialled voter ID in five Councils to deal with this non-existent problem. In very limited observations, Democracy Volunteers observed almost 2% of voters who attempted to vote being turned away for not having ID, not including those who turned around themselves when they saw signs spelling out the requirement or those who were put off from trying at all. One case of attempted personation was observed.

If the Conservatives are planning to impose voter ID throughout the country in order to suppress poorer people voting for other parties, the trial was a significant success.

https://democracyvolunteersdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/voter-id-pilot-areas-special-report-2018.pdf

You need ID for so many things these days.  Anyone who can’t bring the ID is stupid or lazy.  Why do you seem to imply that it is only the poor who are morons?  Surely this impacts f*ckwits of all standings?

That isn't even where the argument is. There is a legitimate debate about whether everyone should carry ID, but whether the poor are disproportionately affected isn't in question. It is well-established from other countries that it is the poor who are affected by this. Check out Black disenfranchisement in the US for starters.

Why does it impact anyone unless they are thick or lazy?  What person on the electoral role doesn’t have 2 items of a bank card/council tax letter/bank statement/driving licence/poll card/utility bill.  Idiocy doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.

It’s always somebody else’s fault.....

Yes, they are more disorganised/lazy/undeserving than us. Therefore they should not be allowed to vote?

You are concerned with how they should be. No doubt they should be better organised, etc, but we need to deal with how they are, not how they should be. These are people who have made the effort to go and vote, and we want to create artificial barriers to stop them from doing so. The fact is that there are people who don't have the documents. There are plenty who do but don't carry them, or forgot to bring them. Why should people have to go home again to get random documents and make a second journey? Or maybe not get to come back at all?

It is achieving nothing.  There is no problem with personation. It isn't even a sledgehammer to crack a nut, cos there is no nut. It is just a blatant attempt to prevent people from voting. In the absence of a personation problem, anyone who supports this restriction doesn't give two hoots about democracy and is only interested in improving the position of right-wing parties by underhand methods.

Sorry but having read the list of possible things they could have used for ID (a very wide range of things) I’ve decided you are talking a load of bollox and just using it as an excuse to have a whine about the Tories. Had Labour implemented this you wouldn’t have a word to say about it. People need to be responsible for their own shit and not blame others.

What’s on your whine list about the Tories tomorrow?

This is an important issue and you are pretending not to understand the implications. But you don't care about democracy, do you? All you are interested in is the right result. Go on - admit it.

Not in this life or the next, if people can’t produce any of the wide range of possible ID they can use then tough shit. I also stand by my comment if labour had done this you would have fk all to say, it’s just a whine......

It is a serious issue.  Denying 2% of the population a vote when margins ard so tight for no good reasion is a pretty shitty thing to do.  Poor people have less sources of ID than rich, so it isn't straightforward.   There aren't many with no access to bank accounts, but dare say not many of them vote Conservative.

Tbf, anyone who doesn't have a bank account is very unlikely to vote at all I guess and even if they did want to there's a good chance they're a racist thicko as likely to vote UKIP/ Tory as Labour. Hard to know who to vote for when you're a thicko these days.

This all detracts a bit from the central point though about motivations and if the motivations were to stop opposition voters voting then it's pernicious - not sure you can draw parallels with US black disenfranchisment though, it's not so clear cut here in terms of how someone who is poor will vote.. especially since Brexit fked all the traditional dividing lines up.

Thanks Woodsey, I knew you'd admit it. I'd say it's unlikely Labour would introduce it because, funnily enough, it seems to be right-wing parties that do so. I wonder why that is.

I didn’t admit anything so you’re talking more bollox, and you don’t know if labour would introduce it or not so you that’s even more bollox again.

As I said it’s just a whine, and if labour did introduce it 100% you would have fk all to say.....

You believe in democracy? Great. If that's the case, you'll obviously agree that there should be a second Referendum, not just on the terms, but on whether to leave or stay.

I believe in everyone doing taking responsibility for themselves to ensure they have the ID so they can do the democratic thing and vote, it’s not hard to get the required ID.

Second referendum? Are you going to start a whine about that now also? I can hear a harmony of whining...... 

[MintTrav]

In 2017, there were 28 cases of alleged in-person voter fraud throughout the whole country.

Yesterday, the government trialled voter ID in five Councils to deal with this non-existent problem. In very limited observations, Democracy Volunteers observed almost 2% of voters who attempted to vote being turned away for not having ID, not including those who turned around themselves when they saw signs spelling out the requirement or those who were put off from trying at all. One case of attempted personation was observed.

If the Conservatives are planning to impose voter ID throughout the country in order to suppress poorer people voting for other parties, the trial was a significant success.

https://democracyvolunteersdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/voter-id-pilot-areas-special-report-2018.pdf

You need ID for so many things these days.  Anyone who can’t bring the ID is stupid or lazy.  Why do you seem to imply that it is only the poor who are morons?  Surely this impacts f*ckwits of all standings?

That isn't even where the argument is. There is a legitimate debate about whether everyone should carry ID, but whether the poor are disproportionately affected isn't in question. It is well-established from other countries that it is the poor who are affected by this. Check out Black disenfranchisement in the US for starters.

Why does it impact anyone unless they are thick or lazy?  What person on the electoral role doesn’t have 2 items of a bank card/council tax letter/bank statement/driving licence/poll card/utility bill.  Idiocy doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.

It’s always somebody else’s fault.....

Yes, they are more disorganised/lazy/undeserving than us. Therefore they should not be allowed to vote?

You are concerned with how they should be. No doubt they should be better organised, etc, but we need to deal with how they are, not how they should be. These are people who have made the effort to go and vote, and we want to create artificial barriers to stop them from doing so. The fact is that there are people who don't have the documents. There are plenty who do but don't carry them, or forgot to bring them. Why should people have to go home again to get random documents and make a second journey? Or maybe not get to come back at all?

It is achieving nothing.  There is no problem with personation. It isn't even a sledgehammer to crack a nut, cos there is no nut. It is just a blatant attempt to prevent people from voting. In the absence of a personation problem, anyone who supports this restriction doesn't give two hoots about democracy and is only interested in improving the position of right-wing parties by underhand methods.

Sorry but having read the list of possible things they could have used for ID (a very wide range of things) I’ve decided you are talking a load of bollox and just using it as an excuse to have a whine about the Tories. Had Labour implemented this you wouldn’t have a word to say about it. People need to be responsible for their own shit and not blame others.

What’s on your whine list about the Tories tomorrow?

This is an important issue and you are pretending not to understand the implications. But you don't care about democracy, do you? All you are interested in is the right result. Go on - admit it.

Not in this life or the next, if people can’t produce any of the wide range of possible ID they can use then tough shit. I also stand by my comment if labour had done this you would have fk all to say, it’s just a whine......

It is a serious issue.  Denying 2% of the population a vote when margins ard so tight for no good reasion is a pretty shitty thing to do.  Poor people have less sources of ID than rich, so it isn't straightforward.   There aren't many with no access to bank accounts, but dare say not many of them vote Conservative.

Tbf, anyone who doesn't have a bank account is very unlikely to vote at all I guess and even if they did want to there's a good chance they're a racist thicko as likely to vote UKIP/ Tory as Labour. Hard to know who to vote for when you're a thicko these days.

This all detracts a bit from the central point though about motivations and if the motivations were to stop opposition voters voting then it's pernicious - not sure you can draw parallels with US black disenfranchisment though, it's not so clear cut here in terms of how someone who is poor will vote.. especially since Brexit fked all the traditional dividing lines up.

Thanks Woodsey, I knew you'd admit it. I'd say it's unlikely Labour would introduce it because, funnily enough, it seems to be right-wing parties that do so. I wonder why that is.

I didn’t admit anything so you’re talking more bollox, and you don’t know if labour would introduce it or not so you that’s even more bollox again.

As I said it’s just a whine, and if labour did introduce it 100% you would have fk all to say.....

You believe in democracy? Great. If that's the case, you'll obviously agree that there should be a second Referendum, not just on the terms, but on whether to leave or stay.

I believe in everyone doing taking responsibility for themselves to ensure they have the ID so they can do the democratic thing and vote, it’s not hard to get the required ID.

Second referendum? Are you going to start a whine about that now also? I can hear a harmony of whining...... 

Gotta go soon. Thanks for playing. All answers pretty much as predicted.

[redsimon]

For different reasons I guess but in one part of electorate Labour did introduce voter id checks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_Fraud_(Northern_Ireland)_Act_2002