The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[nirvana]

Fisheries blueprint unveiled today for UK to take back full control of our own waters.

We will be able to set our own quotas in our own waters for the first time in 50yrs.

Everyone connected with British fishing delighted

Yep, no chance at all that the EU will object to this or restrict access to their markets for our fish and fish products.   Sure "everyone" in the fishing industry must be delighted.  Michael Gove has done such a good thing, that the fishermen all want children with him.  Unfortunately the USA has already declared this to be their independence day, so we'll have to call it Michael Gove day instead.   Or maybe snivelling little shit day is more appropriate?

Good times.

Yes undoubtedly quite right. But here's the clincher, the British don't take kindly to threats and punishment from Jonny foreigner for e.g. fishing our own waters.

And we don't want to be in a union with folk who behave in that way.

It's a cultural thing yo, we're an island nation of people, we're overly proud and a bit arrogant. We love the underdog and we're happy to assume that role. Lots of other traits in our DNA also.

So the threat that other countries will do a, b or c will only make us more determined. It will only back the British bulldog into a corner. Because that is who we are.

That's why tables, charts and figures, doom & gloom stories, or threats about euro politicians being grumpy with us will never make a difference.

it really is barmy. Nationalism that's pretty outmoded in an integrated global economy. British bulldog and cultural throwbacks to byegone eras aren't going to save millions of jobs in a hard brexit, or whistle up a customs solution by the end pf 2020 or preserve peace in Northern Ireland with a hard border

For 250 years, since at least the days Pitt the Elder, British foreign policy has been predicated on not having Europe united against us. Brexit has achieved exactly that. It is a stupendous national folly

You really over dramatise this stuff in my very humble opinion.

How does wanting to be in control of borders, courts, trade deals etc equate in any world to turning all of Europe against us. It's just nonsense - pretty confident that very large numbers of human beings in Europe actually envy our intent to do just that.

Millions of jobs  - yah right.
Hard border - only if the EU erect one.
Blood on the streets - only if the tinned peaches run out

[nirvana]

Surely you don’t actually need it to be explained? I assume nearly everything you write is in the ‘tongue in cheek’/‘take it with a pinch of salt’ territory.

Maybe a little assistance. If the only country ever to leave the EU suffered devastation as a result. Other countries would be:

a) More likely to leave
b) More likely to stay

I'll have an even 50p with you that if Brexit happens - another country will leave within 10 years

[nirvana]

Fisheries blueprint unveiled today for UK to take back full control of our own waters.

We will be able to set our own quotas in our own waters for the first time in 50yrs.

Everyone connected with British fishing delighted

Yep, no chance at all that the EU will object to this or restrict access to their markets for our fish and fish products.   Sure "everyone" in the fishing industry must be delighted.  Michael Gove has done such a good thing, that the fishermen all want children with him.  Unfortunately the USA has already declared this to be their independence day, so we'll have to call it Michael Gove day instead.   Or maybe snivelling little shit day is more appropriate?

Good times.

Yes undoubtedly quite right. But here's the clincher, the British don't take kindly to threats and punishment from Jonny foreigner for e.g. fishing our own waters.

And we don't want to be in a union with folk who behave in that way.

It's a cultural thing yo, we're an island nation of people, we're overly proud and a bit arrogant. We love the underdog and we're happy to assume that role. Lots of other traits in our DNA also.

So the threat that other countries will do a, b or c will only make us more determined. It will only back the British bulldog into a corner. Because that is who we are.

That's why tables, charts and figures, doom & gloom stories, or threats about euro politicians being grumpy with us will never make a difference.

it really is barmy. Nationalism that's pretty outmoded in an integrated global economy. British bulldog and cultural throwbacks to byegone eras aren't going to save millions of jobs in a hard brexit, or whistle up a customs solution by the end pf 2020 or preserve peace in Northern Ireland with a hard border

For 250 years, since at least the days Pitt the Elder, British foreign policy has been predicated on not having Europe united against us. Brexit has achieved exactly that. It is a stupendous national folly

You really over dramatise this stuff in my very humble opinion.

How does wanting to be in control of borders, courts, trade deals etc equate in any world to turning all of Europe against us. It's just nonsense - pretty confident that very large numbers of human beings in Europe actually envy our intent to do just that.

Millions of jobs  - yah right.
Hard border - only if the EU erect one.
Blood on the streets - only if the tinned peaches run out

To continue the point -  I deal with Germans, Italians and French people every single day - there is a lot more respect for British people and their views amongst that community than there is from beside themselves remainers here

[MANTIS01]

Surely you don’t actually need it to be explained? I assume nearly everything you write is in the ‘tongue in cheek’/‘take it with a pinch of salt’ territory.

Maybe a little assistance. If the only country ever to leave the EU suffered devastation as a result. Other countries would be:

a) More likely to leave
b) More likely to stay

But now you're adding 'IF' bruv and I can just as easily say what 'IF' we experience success?

Anyways it's well suprising that you Remainers are so confused and startled that people don't want to be in a union with other people that wish to rain down devastation on them. It's not a real attractive or alluring quality for relationships to flourish.

That said we are actually seeing a rise in right wing politics and nationalist sentiment across Europe. People aren't remotely cowed by such bollocks. So not sure what ur fun little quiz is achieving in this instance

[nirvana]

Surely you don’t actually need it to be explained? I assume nearly everything you write is in the ‘tongue in cheek’/‘take it with a pinch of salt’ territory.

Maybe a little assistance. If the only country ever to leave the EU suffered devastation as a result. Other countries would be:

a) More likely to leave
b) More likely to stay

But now you're adding 'IF' bruv and I can just as easily say what 'IF' we experience success?

Anyways it's well suprising that you Remainers are so confused and startled that people don't want to be in a union with other people that wish to rain down devastation on them. It's not a real attractive or alluring quality for relationships to flourish.

That said we are actually seeing a rise in right wing politics and nationalist sentiment across Europe. People aren't remotely cowed by such bollocks. So not sure what ur fun little quiz is achieving in this instance

It's almost like they think we're Greece and they want to stay in (ish)

[kukushkin88]

Surely you don’t actually need it to be explained? I assume nearly everything you write is in the ‘tongue in cheek’/‘take it with a pinch of salt’ territory.

Maybe a little assistance. If the only country ever to leave the EU suffered devastation as a result. Other countries would be:

a) More likely to leave
b) More likely to stay

But now you're adding 'IF' bruv and I can just as easily say what 'IF' we experience success?

Anyways it's well suprising that you Remainers are so confused and startled that people don't want to be in a union with other people that wish to rain down devastation on them. It's not a real attractive or alluring quality for relationships to flourish.

That said we are actually seeing a rise in right wing politics and nationalist sentiment across Europe. People aren't remotely cowed by such bollocks. So not sure what ur fun little quiz is achieving in this instance

You really do just write nonsense. I added an as yet hypothetical ‘if’ scenario to try and help you understand something seemingly simple that you seemed to be struggling with, then you didn’t understand that. I’ll call it a day there.

[RED-DOG]

very humble opinion.

Call.

[TightEnd]

Fisheries blueprint unveiled today for UK to take back full control of our own waters.

We will be able to set our own quotas in our own waters for the first time in 50yrs.

Everyone connected with British fishing delighted

Yep, no chance at all that the EU will object to this or restrict access to their markets for our fish and fish products.   Sure "everyone" in the fishing industry must be delighted.  Michael Gove has done such a good thing, that the fishermen all want children with him.  Unfortunately the USA has already declared this to be their independence day, so we'll have to call it Michael Gove day instead.   Or maybe snivelling little shit day is more appropriate?

Good times.

Yes undoubtedly quite right. But here's the clincher, the British don't take kindly to threats and punishment from Jonny foreigner for e.g. fishing our own waters.

And we don't want to be in a union with folk who behave in that way.

It's a cultural thing yo, we're an island nation of people, we're overly proud and a bit arrogant. We love the underdog and we're happy to assume that role. Lots of other traits in our DNA also.

So the threat that other countries will do a, b or c will only make us more determined. It will only back the British bulldog into a corner. Because that is who we are.

That's why tables, charts and figures, doom & gloom stories, or threats about euro politicians being grumpy with us will never make a difference.

it really is barmy. Nationalism that's pretty outmoded in an integrated global economy. British bulldog and cultural throwbacks to byegone eras aren't going to save millions of jobs in a hard brexit, or whistle up a customs solution by the end pf 2020 or preserve peace in Northern Ireland with a hard border

For 250 years, since at least the days Pitt the Elder, British foreign policy has been predicated on not having Europe united against us. Brexit has achieved exactly that. It is a stupendous national folly

You really over dramatise this stuff in my very humble opinion.

How does wanting to be in control of borders, courts, trade deals etc equate in any world to turning all of Europe against us. It's just nonsense - pretty confident that very large numbers of human beings in Europe actually envy our intent to do just that.

Millions of jobs  - yah right.
Hard border - only if the EU erect one.
Blood on the streets - only if the tinned peaches run out

just to take one point. Not one single leaver has yet suggested a solution for Northern Ireland

not one. MP, Academic, journalist, forum poster, no one

Brexit is unworkable for Northern Ireland as every single possible solution violates one of the red lines the Government (union must survive) DUP (no border in the irsh sea) and Republican (no physical border, or else)

That's not over-dramatic until there is evidence to the contrary ..such as someone being prepared to give up on a red line, and who is doing that?

[nirvana]

Fisheries blueprint unveiled today for UK to take back full control of our own waters.

We will be able to set our own quotas in our own waters for the first time in 50yrs.

Everyone connected with British fishing delighted

Yep, no chance at all that the EU will object to this or restrict access to their markets for our fish and fish products.   Sure "everyone" in the fishing industry must be delighted.  Michael Gove has done such a good thing, that the fishermen all want children with him.  Unfortunately the USA has already declared this to be their independence day, so we'll have to call it Michael Gove day instead.   Or maybe snivelling little shit day is more appropriate?

Good times.

Yes undoubtedly quite right. But here's the clincher, the British don't take kindly to threats and punishment from Jonny foreigner for e.g. fishing our own waters.

And we don't want to be in a union with folk who behave in that way.

It's a cultural thing yo, we're an island nation of people, we're overly proud and a bit arrogant. We love the underdog and we're happy to assume that role. Lots of other traits in our DNA also.

So the threat that other countries will do a, b or c will only make us more determined. It will only back the British bulldog into a corner. Because that is who we are.

That's why tables, charts and figures, doom & gloom stories, or threats about euro politicians being grumpy with us will never make a difference.

it really is barmy. Nationalism that's pretty outmoded in an integrated global economy. British bulldog and cultural throwbacks to byegone eras aren't going to save millions of jobs in a hard brexit, or whistle up a customs solution by the end pf 2020 or preserve peace in Northern Ireland with a hard border

For 250 years, since at least the days Pitt the Elder, British foreign policy has been predicated on not having Europe united against us. Brexit has achieved exactly that. It is a stupendous national folly

You really over dramatise this stuff in my very humble opinion.

How does wanting to be in control of borders, courts, trade deals etc equate in any world to turning all of Europe against us. It's just nonsense - pretty confident that very large numbers of human beings in Europe actually envy our intent to do just that.

Millions of jobs  - yah right.
Hard border - only if the EU erect one.
Blood on the streets - only if the tinned peaches run out

just to take one point. Not one single leaver has yet suggested a solution for Northern Ireland

not one. MP, Academic, journalist, forum poster, no one

Brexit is unworkable for Northern Ireland as every single possible solution violates one of the red lines the Government (union must survive) DUP (no border in the irsh sea) and Republican (no physical border, or else)

That's not over-dramatic until there is evidence to the contrary ..such as someone being prepared to give up on a red line, and who is doing that?

We can agree zero tariffs between us and the EU quite easily and let them choose whether to put up a border - hard to imagine Northern Ireland somehow becoming the centre for smuggling vast quantities of global goods into the EU, tariff free, if no border existed. Anything that happened in this scenario would be at the margins of European GDP and it's not like smuggling doesn't exist now.

I don't think that is very co-operative though and don't like the fact that it has some risk of causing issues in Ireland. Since i'm not a supporter of the Tories, I would suggest May tells the DUP to fuck right off and make a border in the Irish sea, it's just a pragmatic thing to do and can't see any actual downside. Then, let things, votes of no confidence, loss of leadership, General elections, Brexit or not etc take their course through the political process. It's all about choices and the Tories haven't made many good ones since Maastricht in 92.

[TightEnd]

I don't think that is very co-operative though and don't like the fact that it has some risk of causing issues in Ireland. Since i'm not a supporter of the Tories, I would suggest May tells the DUP to fuck right off and make a border in the Irish sea, it's just a pragmatic thing to do and can't see any actual downside. Then, let things, votes of no confidence, loss of leadership, General elections, Brexit or not etc take their course through the political process. It's all about choices and the Tories haven't made many good ones since Maastricht in 92.

ok and that's not going to happen by choice. Might be forced on them if Boris and co resign and withdraw support and force a leadership change, but they aren't going to do it voluntarily

so what then? whats the solution bar the "the government are going to give themselves up and with it risk the union" solution

[RickBFA]

We need to get through next few days and hope the tosspots like Johnson and Gove put the national interest (and the Tories actually being in power) above all else.

If that can happen and May has the chance to go back to the EU with a plan then there’s a decent chance the EU won’t cut off their nose to spite their face.

Clearly they need to be seen to play hard ball but the economies of the likes of Germany and France import a lot of goods into our consumer lead economy.

No deal could screw the businesses and jobs in those countries and maybe even be a catalyst of bigger problems across the EU. Merkel is under more and more pressure at home, the last thing she needs now is a recession across Europe.

We might well be walking on a tightrope but the risks to the EU economically of no deal should focus minds there to find a way forward.

[MANTIS01]

I have a solution. I remember Merkel saying that making concessions for Britain would "endanger the principles" of the system

Why not just makes concessions for Britain Angela? Hey presto job done.

Nope, let's make all them poor millions out of work, chaos in Ireland, business meltdown, people running into the sea, all to preserve the principles of a system?? It really is barmy. Make concessions, new system, let's all go home and have a cup of tea. No, no, all this bat shit crazy hassle is absolutely necessary to give any other peoples who express concerns about the system a stern warning. Total barminess.

[TightEnd]

I have a solution. I remember Merkel saying that making concessions for Britain would "endanger the principles" of the system

Why not just makes concessions for Britain Angela? Hey presto job done.

Nope, let's make all them poor millions out of work, chaos in Ireland, business meltdown, people running into the sea, all to preserve the principles of a system?? It really is barmy. Make concessions, new system, let's all go home and have a cup of tea. No, no, all this bat shit crazy hassle is absolutely necessary to give any other peoples who express concerns about the system a stern warning. Total barminess.

:-)

Yes but

All 27 and Barnier have to agree

so Ireland have to agree to a border solution etc etc

Don't actually think Merkel, herself weakened by domestic problems, is the issue

[TightEnd]

i love these big political moments!

Thatcher in, Thatcher out, Blair in, Hung parliament 2010, Brexit vote, hung parliament again 2017, Corbyn wins leadership etc etc.

All fabulous to watch and work out



Steven Swinford
‏
Verified account
 
@Steven_Swinford
 2h2 hours ago

EXCLUSIVE I'm told the gathering of Eurosceptic rebels tonight at the FCO is bigger than first thought. Full cast list is Boris Johnson, David Davis, Michael Gove, Esther McVey, Penny Mordaunt and Andrea Leadsom. If I was No 10 I'd be worried...
 
Quick add to this - Liam Fox is also there. So that's SEVEN Eurosceptics drawing up their plans to eviscerate Theresa May's 'third way' - now called the 'evolved Mansion House mode'

[nirvana]

I don't think that is very co-operative though and don't like the fact that it has some risk of causing issues in Ireland. Since i'm not a supporter of the Tories, I would suggest May tells the DUP to fuck right off and make a border in the Irish sea, it's just a pragmatic thing to do and can't see any actual downside. Then, let things, votes of no confidence, loss of leadership, General elections, Brexit or not etc take their course through the political process. It's all about choices and the Tories haven't made many good ones since Maastricht in 92.

ok and that's not going to happen by choice. Might be forced on them if Boris and co resign and withdraw support and force a leadership change, but they aren't going to do it voluntarily

so what then? whats the solution bar the "the government are going to give themselves up and with it risk the union" solution

I'm not being evasive deliberately or trying to quit a discussion but I don't know what will transpire and I really don't care that much. What I know, and that's all that matters to me, is that workable solutions exist but politicians in the Tory party and EU choose not to make them work.

I only care that people like me, who prefer not to be part of a supra national collective in the form the EU takes (and that's not to say that I think being isolationist is any kind of sensible perspective), don't get brow beaten into buying the lie that we cannot thrive without membership - plenty of member countries are far from thriving and that is about as clear a demonstration as one needs, to know this argument has no intellectual merit when considered over reasonable timescales.

I could potentially buy into the concept of the EU if anyone could articulate all the good that would accrue to the world as a result of it's existence. I can also buy the line that, possibly, it's a pure distraction, it's pointless, the Brexit process is just a waste of time and money etc but it is so far from any kind of existential threat that I can't help the hackles rising whenever I hear people putting it that way.