The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[MANTIS01]

I've been watching the whole anti-semitism discussions within labour and it feels like a subject where the more i watch and listen the less i understand.

I've always thought it's inevitable that people who are stridently anti zionist, anti Israeli government actions might exhibit some anti jewishness or make some jewish people uncomfortable but would never have really equated that with the kind of anti semitism that exists in the far right.

Anyway, when a load of fuss kicked up about Willsman I assumed he must have said some blatantly and pretty terrible anti semitic things - I've listened to his remarks and I'm really struggling to see how what he said could cause so much offense to so many.

Weird situation where centrist labour people like Cooper, Umunna, Watson et all call for him to stand down and then rabid nutters like Owen Jones also say he's beyond the pale and he's joined by Billy Bragg referring to the MacPherson principle.

I wonder why i'm missing the point so much when I feel like I'm normally quite sensitive to and, I thought, quite discerning when I saw/witnessed racism

It's his point of view about the situation and not in itself anti-semitic imo.  However how stupid do you need to be to start ranting about this in the current climate for labour?  I think that is why they are calling him to stand down.  The party leadership is idiotic.  Just accept the universally accepted definition and examples and move on?  It's incredible they stumble from one disaster to the next likely all because some Momentum adviser decides they don't want their anti-Israel rhetoric compromised.  Accept the code.  Say what you want about Israel and just don't cross the line.  It's not hard.

I agree with your general points completely..perhaps he's just the straw that broke the camels back and the more left wing of the people I mentioned are finally trying too appear as sensible voices of reason

Saying you are not aware of anti-semitism, when there have been several recent examples that are known about, seems ridiculous at best.  Also talking about Jewish conspiracies seems like the sort of thing that seems classic anti-semitism.  He is clearly a bit of a liability. 

The Jezza story from 8 years ago seems like nothing.  He is known to hace associated witb worst over the years, and he can't be responsible for everything that is said by people at events he attends.

By contrast, there is barely anything that has been written about all the top Tories who have spoken to Steve Bannon, which seems way worse than the latest Jezza story.   If Steve Bannon isn't a neo nazi, he is very good at doing impressions of one.   

Yep, read a bit more and get the point completely and agree with the other couple of comments.

I wanted to learn more and spoke to a guy at work today - an orthodox Jew.  Feel a bit better informed for having got a view from him.

Dunning–Kruger

[booder]

 

[nirvana]

I've been watching the whole anti-semitism discussions within labour and it feels like a subject where the more i watch and listen the less i understand.

I've always thought it's inevitable that people who are stridently anti zionist, anti Israeli government actions might exhibit some anti jewishness or make some jewish people uncomfortable but would never have really equated that with the kind of anti semitism that exists in the far right.

Anyway, when a load of fuss kicked up about Willsman I assumed he must have said some blatantly and pretty terrible anti semitic things - I've listened to his remarks and I'm really struggling to see how what he said could cause so much offense to so many.

Weird situation where centrist labour people like Cooper, Umunna, Watson et all call for him to stand down and then rabid nutters like Owen Jones also say he's beyond the pale and he's joined by Billy Bragg referring to the MacPherson principle.

I wonder why i'm missing the point so much when I feel like I'm normally quite sensitive to and, I thought, quite discerning when I saw/witnessed racism

It's his point of view about the situation and not in itself anti-semitic imo.  However how stupid do you need to be to start ranting about this in the current climate for labour?  I think that is why they are calling him to stand down.  The party leadership is idiotic.  Just accept the universally accepted definition and examples and move on?  It's incredible they stumble from one disaster to the next likely all because some Momentum adviser decides they don't want their anti-Israel rhetoric compromised.  Accept the code.  Say what you want about Israel and just don't cross the line.  It's not hard.

I agree with your general points completely..perhaps he's just the straw that broke the camels back and the more left wing of the people I mentioned are finally trying too appear as sensible voices of reason

Saying you are not aware of anti-semitism, when there have been several recent examples that are known about, seems ridiculous at best.  Also talking about Jewish conspiracies seems like the sort of thing that seems classic anti-semitism.  He is clearly a bit of a liability. 

The Jezza story from 8 years ago seems like nothing.  He is known to hace associated witb worst over the years, and he can't be responsible for everything that is said by people at events he attends.

By contrast, there is barely anything that has been written about all the top Tories who have spoken to Steve Bannon, which seems way worse than the latest Jezza story.   If Steve Bannon isn't a neo nazi, he is very good at doing impressions of one.   

Yep, read a bit more and get the point completely and agree with the other couple of comments.

I wanted to learn more and spoke to a guy at work today - an orthodox Jew.  Feel a bit better informed for having got a view from him.

Dunning–Kruger

Haha, quite so. but after 10 mins reading and 15 minutes of interviewing my colleague I'm pretty confident i understand everything now so if you need to know anything on this subject just give me a shout

[TightEnd]

very good i think

The anti-Semitism row shows us what a disaster Jeremy Corbyn would be as PM

MATTHEW D'ANCONA

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/the-antisemitism-row-shows-us-what-a-disaster-corbyn-would-be-as-pm-a3902331.html

[TightEnd]

much anger that it was a copy and paste job from april and released on a friday evening where sabbath meant no Jewish response for the first 24 hours

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/08/jeremy-corbyns-olive-branch-british-jews-falls-short

[TightEnd]

Dominic Raab, the Brexit secretary, talks of stockpiling food and medicine. But a no-deal Brexit is not a serious option

https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/08/04/the-dangerous-delusion-of-no-deal-brexit?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/thedangerousdelusionofnodealbrexitreadyornot

[TightEnd]

 Barnier has finally butchered the Chequers deal, and with it the British government, prime minister and entire Brexit edifice.

http://politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/08/03/barnier-has-finally-killed-chequers-and-with-it-the-uk-gover

[TightEnd]

Brexit viewed from abroad: “It’s like watching a guy slowly demolishing all the houses on his block with a sledgehammer because he lost a Twitter poll, and all his neighbours are like, ‘Yep, that seems appropriate.’”

https://www.vox.com/2018/8/3/17648198/brexit-food-shortage-stockpile-theresa-may-european-union-united-kingdom

[TightEnd]

Excellent, statesmanlike article by Lord Owen on the way out of the Brexit mess - fall back on EEA + EFTA. He correctly calls for the Government to clarify the legal position (a story nearly as big as Iraq War legal advice that no one is aware of,some say)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/norways-snow-crab-can-lead-us-to-a-smooth-brexit-that-preserves-national-sovereignty-vctfg69br?shareToken=b3836391a5eef164eda0d34d510dceb7

[TightEnd]

Liam Fox: No deal most likely Brexit outcome for UK

60-40

down to EU intransigence, of course.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45073294

[MANTIS01]

Liam Fox: No deal most likely Brexit outcome for UK

60-40

down to EU intransigence, of course.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45073294

Intransigence for sure. Seems maybot is in a position where she would take away any kind of deal that beats no deal. I really doubt she's driving a hard bargain right now. By contrast it appears EU is knowingly entering a scenario where millions of real people suffer because they wont make a concession on their conjured up concept of union. Seems like classic intransigence, like an intransigence definition bullseye. I think a period of no deal will have a sobering effect on both parties and a deal will be done eventually so no need for us to all fear no deal means the end of days.

[doubleup]

Liam Fox: No deal most likely Brexit outcome for UK

60-40

down to EU intransigence, of course.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45073294

Intransigence for sure. Seems maybot is in a position where she would take away any kind of deal that beats no deal. I really doubt she's driving a hard bargain right now. By contrast it appears EU is knowingly entering a scenario where millions of real people suffer because they wont make a concession on their conjured up concept of union. Seems like classic intransigence, like an intransigence definition bullseye. I think a period of no deal will have a sobering effect on both parties and a deal will be done eventually so no need for us to all fear no deal means the end of days.

You voted leave so "the scenario where millions of real people suffer" is your choice.  Instead of feeling the least bit guilty, you look to blame everyone but yourself.  Absolutely archetypal brexiter.  When Trump f-cks up in the USA (which he will) your co-twats in that country will be doing the same.

[MANTIS01]

Liam Fox: No deal most likely Brexit outcome for UK

60-40

down to EU intransigence, of course.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45073294

Intransigence for sure. Seems maybot is in a position where she would take away any kind of deal that beats no deal. I really doubt she's driving a hard bargain right now. By contrast it appears EU is knowingly entering a scenario where millions of real people suffer because they wont make a concession on their conjured up concept of union. Seems like classic intransigence, like an intransigence definition bullseye. I think a period of no deal will have a sobering effect on both parties and a deal will be done eventually so no need for us to all fear no deal means the end of days.

You voted leave so "the scenario where millions of real people suffer" is your choice.  Instead of feeling the least bit guilty, you look to blame everyone but yourself.  Absolutely archetypal brexiter.  When Trump f-cks up in the USA (which he will) your co-twats in that country will be doing the same.

think the key word you're missing there is knowingly... 

[Doobs]

Liam Fox: No deal most likely Brexit outcome for UK

60-40

down to EU intransigence, of course.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45073294

Intransigence for sure. Seems maybot is in a position where she would take away any kind of deal that beats no deal. I really doubt she's driving a hard bargain right now. By contrast it appears EU is knowingly entering a scenario where millions of real people suffer because they wont make a concession on their conjured up concept of union. Seems like classic intransigence, like an intransigence definition bullseye. I think a period of no deal will have a sobering effect on both parties and a deal will be done eventually so no need for us to all fear no deal means the end of days.

If there is an agreement before March 2019, it must be agreed by a qualified majority (20 of 27). If we delay until after March 2019, we need the agreement if every parliament in the EU.   So if we can't get an agreement before March 2019, we aren't getting one any time soon afterwards.   Sure everyone here will congratulate you on attempting to look hard throughout the process.  

[nirvana]

Liam Fox: No deal most likely Brexit outcome for UK

60-40

down to EU intransigence, of course.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45073294

Intransigence for sure. Seems maybot is in a position where she would take away any kind of deal that beats no deal. I really doubt she's driving a hard bargain right now. By contrast it appears EU is knowingly entering a scenario where millions of real people suffer because they wont make a concession on their conjured up concept of union. Seems like classic intransigence, like an intransigence definition bullseye. I think a period of no deal will have a sobering effect on both parties and a deal will be done eventually so no need for us to all fear no deal means the end of days.

You voted leave so "the scenario where millions of real people suffer" is your choice.  Instead of feeling the least bit guilty, you look to blame everyone but yourself.  Absolutely archetypal brexiter.  When Trump f-cks up in the USA (which he will) your co-twats in that country will be doing the same.

Pretty ridiculous to think that anyone who voted Brexit has a scintilla of a reason to feel guilty. Pretty legitimate to look around and find many targets for the creation of the environment that led to the leave vote and also to find many politicians, of all hues, culpable for the divisive and dishonest crapfest since.