The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[neeko]

So Remain have illustrated there is absolutely no benefit to the UK of having the Scotland as a member. They have also detailed that we disagree about everything and hold up initiative after initiative. The UK themselves have shown through the negotiations that they don't care for our continued membership. They have threatened us and been obstinate. Want to punish us and make an example of us.

Really is this a union that we want to stay part of? It's clear because we offer no benefit that our negotiating position is terribly weak, it's clear we don't matter, that our input is irrelevant. So the Remain position appears to be that we should sacrifice our principles and be pushed around, cow down for the $$$. Nah, more convinced than ever that Leave is correct because if we aren't a valued partner let's change the situation and make new partnerships where we have value and respect thanks. Like staying with a domineering wife you don't love because you're too scared to leave her, so you stay under the thumb being told what to do. That might be how Remain like to roll but no thanks to that. 

(Would this not also be true)

The difference is that the Scotland voted to stay as part of the UK, and the UK voted to leave the EU.

What you seem to be saying is that referendum votes are only relevant if you agree with the result.

n

No, the result is not the issue, it’s the problems that are the same that caused the need for the vote that are relevant, and the cognative dissonance between the two votes that is illustrative.

[MANTIS01]

Retail Sales up 3.7% YOY exceeding expectations by about 1% coupled with lowest unemployment since 1975.

[TightEnd]

Retail Sales up 3.7% YOY exceeding expectations by about 1% coupled with lowest unemployment since 1975.

We haven't left yet

the BoE has been QE'ing

Big net falls in Euro migration are causing many industries problems

[MANTIS01]

apologies, just reporting some good news facts actually happening now as opposed to project fear speculation potentially happening in the future.

That said, is a big net fall in Euro migration causing further strain on social infrastructure? Or is that perhaps another positive.

[TightEnd]

“Leave voters will not thank us for delivering a Brexit that makes them worse off or undermines their fragile economic security. Remain voters may never forgive us.”

George Freeman, one of the Tory party’s most thoughtful MPs, on his party’s existence.

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/08/george-freeman-its-time-to-choose-between-a-conservative-brexit-or-a-ukip-one.html

Meanwhile reports that Leave.eu's 88,000 members being encouraged to join the conservative party to ensure a hard brexit should there be a leadership vote pre-march 2019

Worrying times.

[MANTIS01]

“Leave voters will not thank us for delivering a Brexit that makes them worse off or undermines their fragile economic security. Remain voters may never forgive us.”

George Freeman, one of the Tory party’s most thoughtful MPs, on his party’s existence.

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/08/george-freeman-its-time-to-choose-between-a-conservative-brexit-or-a-ukip-one.html

Meanwhile reports that Leave.eu's 88,000 members being encouraged to join the conservative party to ensure a hard brexit should there be a leadership vote pre-march 2019

Worrying times.

"Brexit can be the springboard to a golden age of 21st-century Conservatism"

"Get it right and Brexit could be a moment of renewal of Conservatism"

"to make this a moment of inspiring One Nation renewal capable of inspiring those who didn’t vote for Brexit"

"it’s time for something bold and radical: a new start for a new Britain"

[DMorgan]

"Brexit can be the springboard to a golden age of 21st-century Conservatism"

"Get it right and Brexit could be a moment of renewal of Conservatism"

"to make this a moment of inspiring One Nation renewal capable of inspiring those who didn’t vote for Brexit"

"it’s time for something bold and radical: a new start for a new Britain"

By the ERGs own admission the potential benefits of Brexit will be realised over decades, not years. Talk of 'moments' and 'springboards' is just hot air. Like it or loathe it, this will never be over for either side until there's another vote.

A new start for Britain I can see, it'll definitely be the start of something new. Trouble is, it seems to me that we just swap one set of problems for another. Now the new set of problems (unemployment & more acute pressure on the exchequer as tax revenues fall) we can at least theoretically solve on our own, whereas further political integration with the EU we couldn't.

The trouble is, the same electorate that bought us Brexit also resoundingly defeated Mrs Mays plan to use peoples wealth to pay for their own care.

Its certainly possible for there to be some sort of New Deal born out of a bit of Brexit spirit, but getting people to vote to pay for it? I'm not convinced.

 

[TightEnd]

apologies, just reporting some good news facts actually happening now as opposed to project fear speculation potentially happening in the future.

That said, is a big net fall in Euro migration causing further strain on social infrastructure? Or is that perhaps another positive.

"The number of EU nationals working in the UK is falling, leaving a skills shortage. And the government is doing too little to stop it." writes maikebohn in the New Statesman

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2018/08/brexodus-real-and-it-will-hurt-uk

[TightEnd]

Leaked letter between NHS chiefs accuses government of "radio silence" and "mixed messages" on Brexit planning, and warns that current plans threaten pharmaceutical supply chains, disease control, and the NHS' EEA workforce

[MANTIS01]

apologies, just reporting some good news facts actually happening now as opposed to project fear speculation potentially happening in the future.

That said, is a big net fall in Euro migration causing further strain on social infrastructure? Or is that perhaps another positive.

"The number of EU nationals working in the UK is falling, leaving a skills shortage. And the government is doing too little to stop it." writes maikebohn in the New Statesman

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2018/08/brexodus-real-and-it-will-hurt-uk

Another positive of Brexit will be that the government will need to actively address a skills shortage in our workforce

As we can see this problem was papered over by using migration labour

Great opportunity to improve the skills of British labour and keep that revenue in the British economy rather than losing it abroad

As we

[TightEnd]

% who agree "completely free us from EU rules/free movement even if means economic disruption"

UKIP 90%
Conservative leavers 75%
All Leavers 66%
Plaid Cymru 63%
All Conservatives 57%
Labour leavers 53%

Opinium Aug 14

(!)

[nirvana]

apologies, just reporting some good news facts actually happening now as opposed to project fear speculation potentially happening in the future.

That said, is a big net fall in Euro migration causing further strain on social infrastructure? Or is that perhaps another positive.

"The number of EU nationals working in the UK is falling, leaving a skills shortage. And the government is doing too little to stop it." writes maikebohn in the New Statesman

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2018/08/brexodus-real-and-it-will-hurt-uk

Another positive of Brexit will be that the government will need to actively address a skills shortage in our workforce

As we can see this problem was papered over by using migration labour

Great opportunity to improve the skills of British labour and keep that revenue in the British economy rather than losing it abroad

As we

Since I don't really believe that trickle down economics works fast enough to benefit the whole population i am not really bothered by skills shortages in business per se. In public services there may be some very short term issues (pretty unlikely) but in reality, these will be solved pretty quickly by supply/demand and people will still come to the UK because it will remain a very attractive destination over time for people who wish to benefit economically but don't want to emigrate for good.

Some cracking points made in the article though:
 
 
 

"Kerstin is worried. When the German special needs teaching assistant saw the news about the biggest annual drop in EU nationals working in the UK, her thoughts turned to the large number of Polish, Lithuanian, Romanian and Hungarian children at her school.

She describes them as hard-working children – from hard-working families – who make up healthy enough numbers to keep the school, and its funding and teaching jobs, going. This will undoubtedly change in the near future"

I don't quite know how to address the logic fail in this but obvs, poor Kerstin

"Therefore those who rejoice and say EU citizens staying away will force inward investment and British people into such jobs are misguided. It will take a generation to fix structural issues, such as the education system, and the UK will be reliant on foreign-trained immigrants for years to come. The Romanian doctor will simply be replaced by an Indian doctor."

Personally, with my heritage and work experience, I'd feel pretty sanguine at the thought of controlled immigration of as many Indian professionals as makes sense to come here instead of Romanian professionals. To be clear, I also love and admire Romanian professionals and they would be welcome too if they would like to make a living here, and we think society would benefit from their skills.

"Among those planning to leave is French sculptor, Laure: “I'm just an unworthy migrant in the eyes of the Home Office so I'm leaving after 32 years here.”

This made me laugh more than fromaged me off, au revoir

I'd be quite happy for freedom of inward movement to the UK from the EU if there was a forced expatriation of one remainer for every EU national arriving

[MANTIS01]

The above problems for EU nationals are very simply solved by the EU cutting a deal

[TightEnd]

Christ

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-governments-preparations-for-a-no-deal-scenario

[TightEnd]

the key points unrolled

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1032576458642915328.html