The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[kukushkin88]

https://positivemoney.org/videos/introduction/

This stuff is interesting to me, I’m still trying to get my head around some of it. I’d like to hear people’s thoughts.

It's a shame Kuku's post didn't stimulate more debate.  The MMT angle is quite interesting.  Misguiding in my view but it is certainly gaining traction.

I think we have to accept the fundamentals of the ‘theory’ from people who’ve devoted their lives to studying economics. I’d also argue that they have less vested interest than those protecting the status quo, that’s just my take though. For most people (laymen like me), I guess it comes down to how broken we think the current system is. We’ll keep coming back to 6th biggest economy in the world can’t clothe and feed it’s people.

[nirvana]

@mantis @ nirvana

You guys know what "yielded £2,370 more for the Treasury " means?

Not sure as I can’t access article.  Is it simply tax paid minus any benefits received or have they shared our per capita health/education/infrastructure contribution as part of calculation?  Is it a comparative to a Brit or a stand alone net contribution?

They pay their taxes, they generate money for pensions and the nhs.  They bring an end to government cuts.  nirvana waffling on about the wrong kind of gdp, mantis waffling on about the wrong kind of government spending.

Haha, i did preface with unrelated - still, it was waffling i'll give you that.

More directly then, how has the marginal extra treasury take from a migrant over a lazy Brit benefited the lazy Brit

I haven't read the article but very likely to be a spurious comparison as,I'd imagine, 99% of migrants come here to work and a very large number will pay tax accordingly. It may also be inflated by only capturing the people who pay tax and not accounting for dodgers who consume some services.

The Brit take per head will be depressed by our unhealthy and near dead who don't pay much tax

It’s worth reading the article.

And let facts get in the way of my narrative- come on !

Have to subscribe to read it so thats a non starter on this occasion

It says that your assumptions are good but that wasn’t the crux......the ‘unhealthy and near dead’ are even worse at making children than they are at making money, it’s a big problem.

Aah, well I think we need to find more creative ways to deal with this issue - I think that's preferable to creating a second wave of the slave trade where we deplete the human resources of other countries in the selfish pursuit of what we think we need/have to have.

[teddybloat]

these numbers tend to undervalue migrant workers as we dont have to pay for their education and early year health care. its much more expensive to grow our own workers.

on the flip side the value in pounds and pence says nothing of the social issues such a pressure on housing, services and social cohesion.

we can only have democracy when there is a general consensus on broad issues such as 'what constitutes a good life' and what it means to be morally good. has immigration added to cohesion or been to the detriment of shared values? and what price could we place on any detriment? does accepting mass immigration from countries that don't share our broad liberal or lessez faire attitude reall benefit us? what about when they are diametrically opposed to those values.

any analysis done on pure +/-  £££'s averaged across all immigrants v all UK born adults is useless

also we can have vibrant economic migration post-brexit. the need for workers wont go away, the desire of workers to come here wont go away, our ability to accept workers wont go away.

[kukushkin88]

@mantis @ nirvana

You guys know what "yielded £2,370 more for the Treasury " means?

Not sure as I can’t access article.  Is it simply tax paid minus any benefits received or have they shared our per capita health/education/infrastructure contribution as part of calculation?  Is it a comparative to a Brit or a stand alone net contribution?

They pay their taxes, they generate money for pensions and the nhs.  They bring an end to government cuts.  nirvana waffling on about the wrong kind of gdp, mantis waffling on about the wrong kind of government spending.

Haha, i did preface with unrelated - still, it was waffling i'll give you that.

More directly then, how has the marginal extra treasury take from a migrant over a lazy Brit benefited the lazy Brit

I haven't read the article but very likely to be a spurious comparison as,I'd imagine, 99% of migrants come here to work and a very large number will pay tax accordingly. It may also be inflated by only capturing the people who pay tax and not accounting for dodgers who consume some services.

The Brit take per head will be depressed by our unhealthy and near dead who don't pay much tax

It’s worth reading the article.

And let facts get in the way of my narrative- come on !

Have to subscribe to read it so thats a non starter on this occasion

It says that your assumptions are good but that wasn’t the crux......the ‘unhealthy and near dead’ are even worse at making children than they are at making money, it’s a big problem.

Aah, well I think we need to find more creative ways to deal with this issue - I think that's preferable to creating a second wave of the slave trade where we deplete the human resources of other countries in the selfish pursuit of what we think we need/have to have.

I agree. What do we think is more important, making money or having children and having time/resource to bring them up? #thatcherism

[kukushkin88]

@mantis @ nirvana

You guys know what "yielded £2,370 more for the Treasury " means?

Not sure as I can’t access article.  Is it simply tax paid minus any benefits received or have they shared our per capita health/education/infrastructure contribution as part of calculation?  Is it a comparative to a Brit or a stand alone net contribution?

They pay their taxes, they generate money for pensions and the nhs.  They bring an end to government cuts.  nirvana waffling on about the wrong kind of gdp, mantis waffling on about the wrong kind of government spending.

Haha, i did preface with unrelated - still, it was waffling i'll give you that.

More directly then, how has the marginal extra treasury take from a migrant over a lazy Brit benefited the lazy Brit

I haven't read the article but very likely to be a spurious comparison as,I'd imagine, 99% of migrants come here to work and a very large number will pay tax accordingly. It may also be inflated by only capturing the people who pay tax and not accounting for dodgers who consume some services.

The Brit take per head will be depressed by our unhealthy and near dead who don't pay much tax

It’s worth reading the article.

And let facts get in the way of my narrative- come on !

Have to subscribe to read it so thats a non starter on this occasion

It says that your assumptions are good but that wasn’t the crux......the ‘unhealthy and near dead’ are even worse at making children than they are at making money, it’s a big problem.

Aah, well I think we need to find more creative ways to deal with this issue - I think that's preferable to creating a second wave of the slave trade where we deplete the human resources of other countries in the selfish pursuit of what we think we need/have to have.

I agree. What do we think is more important, making money or having children and having time/resource to bring them up? #thatcherism

Maybe better, ‘rich people of the world unite’ #globalisation

[TightEnd]

The Tory party conference affords the opportunity for Marina Hyde to be brilliant

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/03/theresa-may-tory-conference-boris-johnson-marina-hyde?CMP=share_btn_tw

[kukushkin88]

The Tory party conference affords the opportunity for Marina Hyde to be brilliant

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/03/theresa-may-tory-conference-boris-johnson-marina-hyde?CMP=share_btn_tw

Good morning,
 
It is hilarious, eloquent, excellent as ever. They do make the job of ridiculing them so easy though.

[kukushkin88]

The Tory party conference affords the opportunity for Marina Hyde to be brilliant

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/03/theresa-may-tory-conference-boris-johnson-marina-hyde?CMP=share_btn_tw

Good morning,
 
It is hilarious, eloquent, excellent as ever. They do make the job of ridiculing them so easy though.

Criticising politicians on their physical appearance should be the preserve of the tabloids and Sky News. ‘Cabbage Patch Draco Malfoy’ is so perfect though. It partly speaks about his character as well, so seems more OK. It indicates how well it fits, that there is just the one person in the world it could possibly be. I laughed so much reading that article :-)

[MANTIS01]

Think the article is cringe and the author comes across as a simple hater but quelle surprise it's from another staunch Remainer so what do you expect.

The most illuminating part of Brexit for me has been these hateful divisions which have really weakened our position. We've shot ourselves in the foot so often it's mind-boggling and yep Europe must love how we're imploding right now. We started in a weak position anyway but Remain have been squealing from the rooftops about incoming suffering from the get go. It's just served to weaken our position further still. To the point where the French PM now starts strutting about calling the shots. I mean we've been at loggerheads with the French since time began and this is simply the latest chapter. With pistols drawn and Macron literally waiting in the wings to bum us I don't think it's time for childish jabs and name-calling really. The battalion at our disposal in this latest scuffle with our noisy neighbours is Squadron Snowflake and frankly it's a proper embarrassment.

The other thing that gets my goat is this constant science approach to political analysis. That's the proper waffle. Sure thing that pie chart can statistically prove a migrant from the 'European Economic Area' has contributed 0.001% more to GDP. But that's not a sexy punchline and people don't care about that and they don't vote for that so it's very irrelevant indeed.

[kukushkin88]

Think the article is cringe and the author comes across as a simple hater but quelle surprise it's from another staunch Remainer so what do you expect.

The most illuminating part of Brexit for me has been these hateful divisions which have really weakened our position. We've shot ourselves in the foot so often it's mind-boggling and yep Europe must love how we're imploding right now. We started in a weak position anyway but Remain have been squealing from the rooftops about incoming suffering from the get go. It's just served to weaken our position further still. To the point where the French PM now starts strutting about calling the shots. I mean we've been at loggerheads with the French since time began and this is simply the latest chapter. With pistols drawn and Macron literally waiting in the wings to bum us I don't think it's time for childish jabs and name-calling really. The battalion at our disposal in this latest scuffle with our noisy neighbours is Squadron Snowflake and frankly it's a proper embarrassment.

The other thing that gets my goat is this constant science approach to political analysis. That's the proper waffle. Sure thing that pie chart can statistically prove a migrant from the 'European Economic Area' has contributed 0.001% more to GDP. But that's not a sexy punchline and people don't care about that and they don't vote for that so it's very irrelevant indeed.

I think criticising accurate analysis (another term for accurate analysis might be ‘a representation of reality’) for being accurate is a stretch, even for you. With every post you make the counter argument to your opinion perfectly. People should make decisions on fantasies and sexy punchlines? Are you sure about this?

[BigAdz]

Think the article is cringe and the author comes across as a simple hater but quelle surprise it's from another staunch Remainer so what do you expect.

The most illuminating part of Brexit for me has been these hateful divisions which have really weakened our position. We've shot ourselves in the foot so often it's mind-boggling and yep Europe must love how we're imploding right now. We started in a weak position anyway but Remain have been squealing from the rooftops about incoming suffering from the get go. It's just served to weaken our position further still. To the point where the French PM now starts strutting about calling the shots. I mean we've been at loggerheads with the French since time began and this is simply the latest chapter. With pistols drawn and Macron literally waiting in the wings to bum us I don't think it's time for childish jabs and name-calling really. The battalion at our disposal in this latest scuffle with our noisy neighbours is Squadron Snowflake and frankly it's a proper embarrassment.

The other thing that gets my goat is this constant science approach to political analysis. That's the proper waffle. Sure thing that pie chart can statistically prove a migrant from the 'European Economic Area' has contributed 0.001% more to GDP. But that's not a sexy punchline and people don't care about that and they don't vote for that so it's very irrelevant indeed.

As I read the article, I thought two things.

One, as above, what a hating twat. Its all very good trying to be amusing at others expense in a situation like this, but has he got alternatives? I very much doubt it. He just comes across as a prick living in a bubble and sharing it with like minded pricks.

Two, Kush would be sat somewhere laughing, probably forceably out loud, but for someone that claims to be so fair and open minded on so many strong subjects, it says enough........

[kukushkin88]

Think the article is cringe and the author comes across as a simple hater but quelle surprise it's from another staunch Remainer so what do you expect.

The most illuminating part of Brexit for me has been these hateful divisions which have really weakened our position. We've shot ourselves in the foot so often it's mind-boggling and yep Europe must love how we're imploding right now. We started in a weak position anyway but Remain have been squealing from the rooftops about incoming suffering from the get go. It's just served to weaken our position further still. To the point where the French PM now starts strutting about calling the shots. I mean we've been at loggerheads with the French since time began and this is simply the latest chapter. With pistols drawn and Macron literally waiting in the wings to bum us I don't think it's time for childish jabs and name-calling really. The battalion at our disposal in this latest scuffle with our noisy neighbours is Squadron Snowflake and frankly it's a proper embarrassment.

The other thing that gets my goat is this constant science approach to political analysis. That's the proper waffle. Sure thing that pie chart can statistically prove a migrant from the 'European Economic Area' has contributed 0.001% more to GDP. But that's not a sexy punchline and people don't care about that and they don't vote for that so it's very irrelevant indeed.

As I read the article, I thought two things.

One, as above, what a hating twat. Its all very good trying to be amusing at others expense in a situation like this, but has he got alternatives? I very much doubt it. He just comes across as a prick living in a bubble and sharing it with like minded pricks.

Two, Kush would be sat somewhere laughing, probably forceably out loud, but for someone that claims to be so fair and open minded on so many strong subjects, it says enough........

There must be room for some gallows humour? Trust me, I find very little about this government funny.

[MANTIS01]

People should and do make decisions on the things that matter to them, on how they feel.

Leftie approach these days it's just to pour scorn on folk for not accepting their statistical perspective of the situation.

It's like if people can't get to see their GP for a week they really don't care about the pie chart showing encouraging economic output from a sea of migrants. This isn't bigotry or racism it's just a persistent chesty cough. 

[kukushkin88]

People should and do make decisions on the things that matter to them, on how they feel.

Leftie approach these days it's just to pour scorn on folk for not accepting their statistical perspective of the situation.

It's like if people can't get to see their GP for a week they really don't care about the pie chart showing encouraging economic output from a sea of migrants. This isn't bigotry or racism it's just a persistent chesty cough. 

It’s interesting. Is disregard for reality the way to go in all aspects of our decision making lives? It would seem weird if your rule only applied to something as important as politics.

[MANTIS01]

How people think is the reality mate.

Take uncontrolled immigration, majority don't want it.

Put up all the charts you want, majority still don't want it. That's reality.